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Old 24-07-2013, 22:30
chopoff
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So MS has seen that Sony is getting a lot of thumbs up for it's indie policies and how they've become cosy with the indie devs.

As a result MS is now ditching certification fees and you will be able to self publish, just like with Sony.

In addition they're saying every console can be a 'dev kit'. But I think that is bullshit speak for you can run stuff you've made on your PC without having to package it and send it to us first, after all if all consoles are full dev kits then we'd likely see the console hacked within five minutes.

Oh and yeah - those three words MS keep spouting - not at launch.
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Old 24-07-2013, 22:39
mred2000
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And here's the coverage from Develop: http://www.develop-online.net/news/4...s-for-Xbox-One
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Old 24-07-2013, 23:17
2Dshmuplover
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From what I'd read I was always under the impression that MS had not yet decided on how they were going to deal with Indie community for X1, Phill Harrison said at E3 that things were going on in the background and that Indie devs would be well catered for and Mattrick said that there would 100% be a development platform for them. A few weeks ago the news of Unity compatibility for Xbox 360/One was the first step.

The fact every X1 can be used as a devkit is huge and it even makes Kinect 2.0 more appealing (for me) since if anyone's going to make that tech shine it will be the Indie community. This is some of the best news to come from Microsoft since E3 IMHO. Now we should see those games like Oddworld and FEZ 2 (wonder if Jon Blow will sign up ha!) which previously were off limits due to the 360 rules.
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Old 24-07-2013, 23:36
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From what I'd read I was always under the impression that MS had not yet decided on how they were going to deal with Indie community for X1, Phill Harrison said at E3 that things were going on in the background and that Indie devs would be well catered for and Mattrick said that there would 100% be a development platform for them. A few weeks ago the news of Unity compatibility for Xbox 360/One was the first step.

The fact every X1 can be used as a devkit is huge and it even makes Kinect 2.0 more appealing (for me) since if anyone's going to make that tech shine it will be the Indie community. This is some of the best news to come from Microsoft since E3 IMHO. Now we should see those games like Oddworld and FEZ 2 (wonder if Jon Blow will sign up ha!) which previously were off limits due to the 360 rules.
Yeah this is the same impression I got when they were questioned weeks ago about it. So I don't really see how this is "back-pedalling" when they never said for sure what the policy was to begin with.
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Old 24-07-2013, 23:38
chopoff
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From what I'd read I was always under the impression that MS had not yet decided on how they were going to deal with Indie community for X1, Phill Harrison said at E3 that things were going on in the background and that Indie devs would be well catered for and Mattrick said that there would 100% be a development platform for them. A few weeks ago the news of Unity compatibility for Xbox 360/One was the first step.

The fact every X1 can be used as a devkit is huge and it even makes Kinect 2.0 more appealing (for me) since if anyone's going to make that tech shine it will be the Indie community. This is some of the best news to come from Microsoft since E3 IMHO. Now we should see those games like Oddworld and FEZ 2 (wonder if Jon Blow will sign up ha!) which previously were off limits due to the 360 rules.
The Fez guy has already kind of intimated he still isn't interested.

They are not making each console a true dev kit, so it isn't that special - but is quite a unique thing to do for a console to essentially allow homebrew out of the box, but it will have a lot of restrictions. It has to. If it didn't it would be hacked to pieces in minutes.

Also it is said that this is just for the Windows OS of the console, which ties in with MS saying at Build that if you want a headstart, start making a Windows 8 app.

This suggests parity with the Windows Store, which is a good thing and can't believe they haven't already done this as not only will it be appealing for the console to have it also boosts the content for Windows 8 PCs.

That does mean, though, that you only have limited system resources available as the Windows OS is limited to 3GB.
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Old 24-07-2013, 23:38
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It's "their vision"...just like my vision is to be able to tie a knot in my todger...
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Old 24-07-2013, 23:39
chopoff
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Yeah this is the same impression I got when they were questioned weeks ago about it. So I don't really see how this is "back-pedalling" when they never said for sure what the policy was to begin with.
They charged for certification and patches. Now they won't.

They made you get a publisher to get your game released. Now they won't.

If you can't see the reversal in that then you need help.
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Old 24-07-2013, 23:41
Red Arrow
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They charged for certification and patches. Now they won't.

They made you get a publisher to get your game released. Now they won't.

If you can't see the reversal in that then you need help.
That is the policy on the current console. When pressed to ask what the policy would be for the X1 they didn't say one way or another just that they are still working out the details. The details which are now being released.

I don't need help, actually rather rude to suggest it.
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Old 24-07-2013, 23:49
chopoff
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That is the policy on the current console. When pressed to ask what the policy would be for the X1 they didn't say one way or another just that they are still working out the details. The details which are now being released.

I don't need help, actually rather rude to suggest it.
As a platform there are fees and requirements which are now going but they've only done this since many indies bad-mouthed MS for their policies and for their lack of support, and after seeing Sony getting a lot of indie love.

They've removed their fees and requirements. They've back-pedalled on their current platform attributes, just like Sony did.

Not making this a Sony vs. MS thing, they've both back-pedalled - but in the case of MS they yet again have shown they don't have a single clue about their plans, their detail, or where they're headed.

Everything is wishy-washy, policies are being made up and changed on the fly and it's been a complete mess and everything has been reactionary.

In other words they completely misunderstood the market with their initial proposition.
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Old 24-07-2013, 23:53
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I will give you the fact that MS PR dept needs to be fired. But in this case it's not like MS said this is the policy for the X1 and indie games, and then weeks later changed it. Or did they?
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Old 25-07-2013, 01:54
2Dshmuplover
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No you're right, they didn't at all and always suggested that Indies were important to them. I never thought for one moment MS would turn their back on Indies due to XBLIG + XNA (which wasn't perfect but they leaned some important lessons) and many indie games have been breakout hits for XBLA.

It was confirmed that the original plan was to announce this at Gamecom, I guess with MS's new PR transparency campaign they thought it best just confirm it now rather than leave people bickering over it for the next few weeks.

I don't see ANY Indie dev turning their back on the prospect of selling their games to a whole community of gamers, that's precisely what they want, certainly not Polytron who are actively working on a new patch for FEZ since the culling of Title Update fees.
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Old 25-07-2013, 02:05
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Well at least MS are trying to correct their mistakes, maybe the Xbox One won't be a disaster after all!
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Old 25-07-2013, 09:33
Hotbird
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I wish they would have a rethink about the name.
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Old 25-07-2013, 13:09
chopoff
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No you're right, they didn't at all and always suggested that Indies were important to them. I never thought for one moment MS would turn their back on Indies due to XBLIG + XNA (which wasn't perfect but they leaned some important lessons) and many indie games have been breakout hits for XBLA.

It was confirmed that the original plan was to announce this at Gamecom, I guess with MS's new PR transparency campaign they thought it best just confirm it now rather than leave people bickering over it for the next few weeks.

I don't see ANY Indie dev turning their back on the prospect of selling their games to a whole community of gamers, that's precisely what they want, certainly not Polytron who are actively working on a new patch for FEZ since the culling of Title Update fees.
I already said he's intimated his dis-interest after the policy reversal.

There's plenty others too. Look at this damning quote from Retro City Rampage's dev.

"After my experience working with them to release on Xbox 360, I have no interest in even buying an Xbox One, let alone developing for it. The policy changes are great, but they don't undo the experience I had. I'm not ready to forget what I went through. Working with Microsoft was the unhappiest point of my career. Policies are one thing, but developer relations are another.

"It's important to me that consumers don't see things as black and white. There are still strings attached to this policy change."
MS have pissed people off and now they're paying the price. Many have said yeah good step in the right direction but still strings involved and MS's past behaviour has put them off for good.

Also, they confirmed this now and not at gamescom because GI leaked it.
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Old 25-07-2013, 15:52
fastest finger
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MS have pissed people off and now they're paying the price. Many have said yeah good step in the right direction but still strings involved and MS's past behaviour has put them off for good.

Also, they confirmed this now and not at gamescom because GI leaked it.
Meanwhile, Sony are planning quarterly indie meetings to court developers, inform them of developments and take feedback as they drive development on PS3, PS4 and Vita. MS have for a lot of work to do to get these guys back on side.
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Old 25-07-2013, 16:41
2Dshmuplover
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I already said he's intimated his dis-interest after the policy reversal.

There's plenty others too. Look at this damning quote from Retro City Rampage's dev.



MS have pissed people off and now they're paying the price. Many have said yeah good step in the right direction but still strings involved and MS's past behaviour has put them off for good.

Also, they confirmed this now and not at gamescom because GI leaked it.

Could you link to where Phil Fish said he wasn't interested in developing for X1 despite self publishing please? Not suggesting he didn't say that I would just like to read it.

I saw Provinciano's comments but he like Jon Blow has well documented bad blood with MS, he is not fully informed to what MS are doing and devs that might be will be under NDA anyway. So I have to ask who are the "plenty of others"?

I see no good reason why an indie dev would cut their nose off to spite their face (unless they've had a prior falling out of course). All these companies are the same, Apple, MS, Nintendo, Sony it doesn't matter it's about getting the games out to the game buying public. I think some people must forget that MS are the company that provided a true Indie platform for this generation which now hosts around 5000 more indie games on Xbox 360 than any other console. XNA was a wonderful thing and was made with good intention, and while some devs had issues with certain restrictions these are all being addressed for the X1.

We know the Indie games will have achievement points, will not be segregated from other published games (never saw a problem with this in the first place) and will hopefully via the trending feature allow exposure for those indie games that truly deserve it.

Phil Spencer has confirmed there will be full access to all resources including no RAM limitation link

Also the interview with Giant Bomb and Marc Whitten can be heard here

Marc Whiten also confirms there will be no limitation on hardware resources and that it was something that was planned from the beginning. Full details to be released at Gamescom.

Giant Bomb: But this isnít a situation where, if you just pick up an Xbox One at Target, youíre only going to be able to access certain parts of the memory, certain parts of the graphics processor? This is going to allow you, at least eventually, once itís all put into place, to be able to do everything that someone like Respawn is doing?

Whitten: Thatís right.
It makes you wonder what other surprises Microsoft might have in store for us on the run up to launch.
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Old 25-07-2013, 17:20
Red Arrow
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It makes you wonder what other surprises Microsoft might have in store for us on the run up to launch.
Or as people call it now "U-turns"
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Old 25-07-2013, 17:46
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Giant Bomb: But this isnít a situation where, if you just pick up an Xbox One at Target, youíre only going to be able to access certain parts of the memory, certain parts of the graphics processor? This is going to allow you, at least eventually, once itís all put into place, to be able to do everything that someone like Respawn is doing?

Whitten: Thatís right.
So MS are going to allow people to run unsigned code? Somehow I doubt it, there are clearly going to have to be some restrictions to avoid piracy.

I am sure MS will have a good policy towards indies and possibly allow some form of homebrew but I find it hard to believe they will allow full unrestricted access to the hardware.
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Old 25-07-2013, 18:05
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So does this mean Xbox Live will be swamped with the rip-off tat that pollutes the Windows 8 store?
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Old 25-07-2013, 18:09
chopoff
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So MS are going to allow people to run unsigned code? Somehow I doubt it, there are clearly going to have to be some restrictions to avoid piracy.

I am sure MS will have a good policy towards indies and possibly allow some form of homebrew but I find it hard to believe they will allow full unrestricted access to the hardware.
Yes. They will not allow you to do whatever the hell you like, and they're not going to give any Tom, Dick or Harry the full SDK, it would make the system too vulnerable.

You'll likely get a limited - and probably more friendly/'pick up and code' - SDK.

I suspect Mark was taking the politician approach. Gave an answer to one of the many questions asked as one single question, the end bit.

Don't forget dev kits are a higher specification unit compared to the retail unit.

What I think MS mean is actually debug/test kit. You code on PC, you then get to package your Windows 8 app and can run it on Xbox One with all the usual limitations that apply.

If it wasn't £429 I'd buy one for this functionality, it's a unique feature that I'd love to tinker with.
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Old 25-07-2013, 18:10
chopoff
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So does this mean Xbox Live will be swamped with the rip-off tat that pollutes the Windows 8 store?
In addition, they claim you can use achievements so this surely will mean people making apps that just dish out massive amounts of achievements, so that will be interesting.
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Old 25-07-2013, 18:47
2Dshmuplover
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So MS are going to allow people to run unsigned code? Somehow I doubt it, there are clearly going to have to be some restrictions to avoid piracy.

I am sure MS will have a good policy towards indies and possibly allow some form of homebrew but I find it hard to believe they will allow full unrestricted access to the hardware.
Well he clarifies it in further detail:

"Our goal is for you to be able to have full access of the system and the services on Xbox Live. Also, this is a dev kit. This is the way that we will think about dev kits for people on my team that are working on Xbox One. Thereís no ďthis is a second class sort of experienceĒ type of thing." source
It's a devkit with no compromises. The question of piracy, privacy and hacking was brought up in the interview and he stated that they have anti-piracy measures in place and that this couldn't be done on the 360, these decisions had to be made during the design process of the console and built from the ground up.
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Old 25-07-2013, 18:48
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In addition, they claim you can use achievements so this surely will mean people making apps that just dish out massive amounts of achievements, so that will be interesting.
What's your gamerscore?



88,156,161,901,914,894,984,613,489,461,781,698,199,198,189
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Old 25-07-2013, 19:58
chopoff
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Well he clarifies it in further detail:



It's a devkit with no compromises. The question of piracy, privacy and hacking was brought up in the interview and he stated that they have anti-piracy measures in place and that this couldn't be done on the 360, these decisions had to be made during the design process of the console and built from the ground up.
Why then have a whole segment of Build - a developer-attended conference - dedicated to the Xbox and not even mention or for one second hint at this? All they told them was 'make a Windows 8 app' which according to Marc 5-billion-transistors Whitten, is not what you'll be making.

Instead, they think nope, much better to announce it at a public, consumer-attended games conference.

In addition to that you have indie developers themselves who have made popular indie titles for the 360 who knew jack shit about it, or the intended policies until now.

And console was built from the ground-up around this feature, but that feature doesn't make it at launch?

Have you ever seen such bullshitery in your life!

He doesn't actually address piracy head-on, either. The thing is if they allow full access, piracy will occur. So there has to be limitations, no ifs or buts. You can't 'architecturally' make something to avoid piracy if you give someone full access to hardware, because they have full access to exploit anything and everything.

If you designed a house with security in mind, but then gave a robber the blueprints and tools required to fiddle around with all of the internals of your system, hey guess what, your TV will be gone in the morning.

If, however, he means it will be as full as a 'normal' dev kit, then it would mean those dev kits have limitations in them too.
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Old 25-07-2013, 21:10
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It's a devkit with no compromises. The question of piracy, privacy and hacking was brought up in the interview and he stated that they have anti-piracy measures in place and that this couldn't be done on the 360, these decisions had to be made during the design process of the console and built from the ground up.
Well I am sceptical but that would be awesome if they truly have found a way to allow developers full access to the system while retaining anti piracy measures. At the moment I suspect what chopoff suggests in post #20 is closer to what this will turn out likes (So still an awesome addition but probably a Devkit lite).

I dont really know much about the technical side of things when it comes to consoles but the PS3 had pretty good security and allowed limited access to the system and people used that to eventually hack the PS3. So looking at that it seems dangerous to allow full unrestricted access to the system and services.
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