Archetypes and our attitudes to them.

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danigirl

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by On The Beach:
“Hi Danigirl,

I haven't worked out how to paste in a ready made quote already embedded in a box so can't include your fab ported across comment here. I can offer a comment though and folks can go back up the page to view your previous contribution.

---

Even Atheism is a belief system.

As sentient, self aware beings, we have great difficulty in comprehending our own mortality so we fill that infinite. mental vacuum with any soothing imagery we can muster.

I'm not sure it matters what form that takes but there will always be something. Some barrier, some belief system or some perceived greater force or power to act as a buffer to keep eternity from arriving too soon!

Wolfy says she talks and listens to nature. If she can find or attach meaning to that practice, good luck to her. However, her methods are crass and, like you, I found her Disney style, cartoon conversations distasteful. Plain silly.

I have friends who pursue a Wiccan spiritual path. They also talk and listen to nature.To be Wiccan is to worship the Earth and pursue the philosophies of the Old Religion, a belief system based on Pagan practice

Their respect for our planet and methods are inspirational.

You write, "There's a fine line between what we perceive to be normal and what society is telling us is normal."

Bingo. Right back on thread topic.

Society? Society is an intransigent, cold, steel track laid out by committee or dictate, not a living, breathing, reasoning individual we can ever hold an intimate conversation with.

This, (or any forum), is such an inanimate entity too. I mean, for all the humanity or passion laid out on these pages, there is no human that singly represents, embodies or can talk for this forum.

And BB itself?

It is just a show, just a concept ... with a framework and rules that shift like Sahara sand.

There is no fine line, Danigirl. What we perceive to be normal will come from our heart and we should follow it.

What society perceives to be normal comes from somewhere else and should be viewed with caution.

Don't break the law though ... cos that's naughty.”

Thank you for your reply.

I have a response, but I really must go out and do that life thing that keeps getting in the way

I'll form my reply better later.

Oh and welcome to DS

Na_Jiao

27-07-2013

[quote=geeky kiwi;67402410]Big Brother is educational? That's one of the more absurd things I've read on this forum lately.[/QUOTE]

Just out of curiosity, why so? I personally think there is a lesson/learning in everything if you are open to it.

Scarlet O'Hara

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by On The Beach:
“This year, BB has a 'Secrets and Lies' theme but I'm wondering what the the final punchline will be when BB eventually winds up? I mean, the show included several apparent symbolic, archetype characters e.g Playboy. Model or Femme Fatale. Twins. Boxer. Socialite. Policeman. Hippy. Womaniser etc

Looking at the above line up, producers might have thought such characters would have been a genuine, good mix ... but what if they saw something else within the application forms?

Maybe, this year, they intended to educate a nation, (well, 1.8M viewers), to demonstrate that life never is truly as it appears ... and that it is easy for any of us to judge others merely by the labels, signs and tokens we place upon first impressions we hold as too sacrosanct to deviate from.

Anyway ... Do first impressions stick?

Some of us, as voyeurs, will have read the Socialite label and immediately branded that particular girl as a spoiled rich kid, (buying into the hype?), while others will have been prepared to look beyond to see something more ... and some of us might have scoffed at a HM's Playboy / Player label ... while others will have simply enjoyed the absurdity of the character.

And what about the Hippy? Was she a typical, peace and love child of the universe ... or just a girl dressed like one? ...

The (ex) Policeman? What of him? For some, his lifestyle, mannerisms and effeminate behavior will have blown any typical view of such a former upholder of the law right out of the water.

Or Sam? Well ... perhaps BB have left him out of the HL show, (and even ignored much LF material associated with him), to show us, as voyeurs, that being ignored and overlooked is a poignant, every day reality for millions of physically, (or mentally), impaired folk all over the world.

What about you, dear reader? Have you been tricked by your preconceptions, turned over by your own in built prejudices or joined the pitch fork wielding, torch bearing villagers marching en masse to chastise whatever monster has seemingly violated your psyche?

Or do you see housemates as disorientated game show participants just trying to survive the fascinating, alien and claustrophobic social environment that John De Mol first created back in 1997?”

Great post, great analysis, great questions.

I think with Hazel, we've tapped into the oldest archetype of all: Eve. She seems to have, for some posters at least, tapped into the collective unconscious memory of the temptress, because I've seen posts condemning her in almost biblical tones, and refuting all attempts at perspective or proportion.

If I'm going to get reeeeally 'Jungian' about it, I'd say any of HMs we take exception to are showing us our shadow. It was Wolfy for me. I'm not new to shamanism or new age spirituality, but hated how she caricatured that type and made it phoney. She was a troubled girl, using it as an identity but showing none of its willingness to learn and evolve. Until realising that in condemning her, I'm also being a phoney. Argh!

jogur

27-07-2013

---

Even Atheism is a belief system.

As sentient, self aware beings, we have great difficulty in comprehending our own mortality so we fill that infinite. mental vacuum with any soothing imagery we can muster.

IThis is not true. I am a paid up member of the British Humanist Association. I believe that when you are dead you are dead, that's it and all about it. Our motto is you can be good without God. We have one life, I believe there is no life hereafter.

danigirl

27-07-2013

Hey Beach,

I do apologise, I was going to write a in depth reply, but it occured to me, I again, more or less answered it on another thread, so if I may once again quote my own post, without coming across as unbearably arrogant, I hope

Quote:
“Brilliant and thought provoking post. The answer I fear is far more complicated.

In essence, have we evolved? No, we haven't. Our perceptions have merely changed over the years.

I am in a sense, proud to say I'm part of a generation that for the vast majority, no longer judges people or hates people for being different. Every day we see prejudice shifting further and further into becoming a thing of the past and I for one long for the day when it is.

In another sense, I despair about humanity. As our perceptions have changed and we have entered the busy era, technology, fast moving pace, we have lost part of our ability to empathise and care about our fellow man.

We are as a species, by far the most judgmental creatures in existence. We watch BB and other shows purely for our own entertainment. For most of us, we look forward to how different people will interact with each other and as soon as they walk through those doors, our perceptions are formed.

Though most of us will try to refrain from voicing our opinions until we’ve seen more of them, knowing our snap judgments are subject to change, we have still judged them. We’ve judged them based on how they carry themselves, how they look, how they act, the whole package, save them as individual people. In some cases, an instant dislike is born and despite change, that one snap judgment will never change.

Gina said something rather simplistic the other day, but needs bringing up in conversation none the less. She stated if a glamour model went on the show, and was sweet, caring a lovely person, people would love her. I disagree. Would some change their perception of glamour models? I like to believe they would. Others, would not. Others would leap to the age old perception of glamour models and would hate the girl regardless of how sweet or nasty she was.

I’m hesitant to go too off topic. Your post has made me think of a number of things, but I put that down to the talent of a great writer. If you can challenge people’s perceptions, make people think, you are among a rare few who have the talent to change the course of what we as people, think and believe. Kudos.

Do we still like to see suffering? No. I may be considered very naïve over this, but at the heart, I still believe in the basic decency of humanity.

I believe most of us can separate fact from fiction.

While the housemates are in the house, they are a work of fiction. Puppets on show for us to judge and fall in love with or grow hatred for (or possibly less extreme versions), always guided by the hand of the puppet master, Big Brother. Indeed we have all heard them claim they are playing a game. So in essence, they are not real.

Once out of the house though, they return to reality. They return to who they were before they entered the house. At that point, I would like to think we remember it’s no longer fiction, but fact.

Take Dan last night. I was truly unsettled by the numerous threads and posts of people applauding a rather nasty individual taking great pride in (to coin a phrase) publicly flogging an individual. Personally I would never condone that, not even for someone I disliked while in the house. It’s times like that I fear my faith in humanity decreases greatly. Call me overly sensitive but I do feel another’s discomfort and pain at times.

I should stop there, or I’ll just keep rambling on and going further off topic. I have a tendency to do that.

In short, to answer your main key question, no, we haven’t evolved, we have only found different things to judge and enjoy watching “flogged” and "tortured", so to speak.”

In essence you have achieved the same as the other poster. Your OP has sent many many thoughts racing through my mind, as has a tendency to happen with a particularly thought provoking post. I put this down to the mark of a great writer, to get people thinking with nothing more than your voice and words.

I could go on for hours, but I won't bore you.

I will draw on myself as a final example though. You might talk to me and find I have some interesting comments to add to discussion, even find me somewhat intelligent. But how would your perceptions change if you knew what I do for a living?

I'm part of an occupation that is greatly judged by society and people's common perceptions (no, I'm not a glamour model

) and so I'm very often judged straight off, purely based on what I do for a living. In fact when people have taken the time to talk to me, some have even expressed surprise at how I do not act in the traditional, stereotypical sense of what they perceive should be natural acts based on my occupation.

Or...something that makes a tad more sense than that

You catch my drift anyway

diesels hummin

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by Annsyre:
“Violated your psyche - that's a bit OTT.”

I would just like to make it clear that i was jokingly quoting the OP.

DavetheSensible

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by On The Beach:
“Don't break the law though ... cos that's naughty.”

Although it is worth recalling that sometimes that's the only way to get unjust laws changed.
Kinder Scout, Stonewall, Poll Tax protests (though perhaps not the riots). A lone man with a shopping bag in front of a tank, A monk burning in a street. Concientous objectors. All just trying to get fairness and finding the only way to protest is to break the law .

(EDIT for a missed comma - there never was a gay protest over private property as far as I know).

Conehead

27-07-2013

You have a certain cut to your jib, Beach. You remind me of Swiss Tony.

On The Beach

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by Scarlet O'Hara:
“Great post, great analysis, great questions.

I think with Hazel, we've tapped into the oldest archetype of all: Eve. She seems to have, for some posters at least, tapped into the collective unconscious memory of the temptress, because I've seen posts condemning her in almost biblical tones, and refuting all attempts at perspective or proportion.

If I'm going to get reeeeally 'Jungian' about it, I'd say any of HMs we take exception to are showing us our shadow. It was Wolfy for me. I'm not new to shamanism or new age spirituality, but hated how she caricatured that type and made it phoney. She was a troubled girl, using it as an identity but showing none of its willingness to learn and evolve. Until realising that in condemning her, I'm also being a phoney. Argh!”

You are generous with your praise, Scarlet. Thank you.

Wow, EVE. Could you ever be any more succinct? Could you ever fire a straighter arrow? I like the fresh, entirely relaxed lilt of your thoughts.

But hang on ... (Oh dear, that was short lived).

computing ...................................

NO!

YES!

NO.

YES!!!

We're OK. EVE is fine. Temptress, perhaps. Yes.

Forgive the interruption. I was just recalibrating my mind and for a few seconds, dipped into a line of thought that thousands of others are currently pondering.

I'll stay in my small but comfortably deep pond and not skip stones across it ... preferring still reflection to trite ripples.

Ha ha. Scarlet. Now there's a name.

Scarlet O'Hara

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by On The Beach:
“You are generous with your praise, Scarlet. Thank you.

Wow, EVE. Could you ever be any more succinct? Could you ever fire a straighter arrow? I like the fresh, entirely relaxed lilt of your thoughts.

But hang on ... (Oh dear, that was short lived).

computing ...................................

NO!

YES!

NO.

YES!!!

We're OK. EVE is fine. Temptress, perhaps. Yes.

Forgive the interruption. I was just recalibrating my mind and for a few seconds, dipped into a line of thought that thousands of others are currently pondering.

I'll stay in my small but comfortably deep pond and not skip stones across it ... preferring still reflection to trite ripples.

Ha ha. Scarlet. Now there's a name. ”

The problem with deep ponds, even small ones, is you can still drown in them. Or maybe that's just me.

Scarlet, yeah, there's an archetype. Not entirely un-Hazel-like in her tenacity and ability to make any man within 100 feet swoon.

Scarlett: As God is my witness, as God is my witness they're not going to lick me. I'm going to live through this and when it's all over, I'll never be hungry again.

Ballsy broad, inherently feminine but also an aberration of what was expected of a woman, one who's much maligned or admired, depending on your viewpoint. I could, of course, be talking about either of them.

On The Beach

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by danigirl:
“Hey Beach,

I do apologise, I was going to write a in depth reply, but it occured to me, I again, more or less answered it on another thread, so if I may once again quote my own post, without coming across as unbearably arrogant, I hope

In essence you have achieved the same as the other poster. Your OP has sent many many thoughts racing through my mind, as has a tendency to happen with a particularly thought provoking post. I put this down to the mark of a great writer, to get people thinking with nothing more than your voice and words.

I could go on for hours, but I won't bore you.

I will draw on myself as a final example though. You might talk to me and find I have some interesting comments to add to discussion, even find me somewhat intelligent. But how would your perceptions change if you knew what I do for a living?

I'm part of an occupation that is greatly judged by society and people's common perceptions (no, I'm not a glamour model ) and so I'm very often judged straight off, purely based on what I do for a living. In fact when people have taken the time to talk to me, some have even expressed surprise at how I do not act in the traditional, stereotypical sense of what they perceive should be natural acts based on my occupation.

Or...something that makes a tad more sense than that

You catch my drift anyway ”

Yes. I hear you, Danigirl. Your words are, "As clear as an azure sky of deepest summer", as Alex DeLarge would have acknowledged.

My literary role model, Ray Bradbury, the iconic science fiction author, always said the following to students. I'll be paraphrasing cos it was from a Youtube video. The net is teeming with similar Bradbury quotes.

"Students. You must write something every day of your life. It doesn't matter if what you write is poor. It doesn't matter if what you write is just average. All that matters is making sure you write ... because, occasionally, just now and then, you won't write something poor, you won't write something average ... You will write something EXTRA-ORDINARY".

Sorry Ray. Best I could do but I think the sentiment has survived even if I have failed to paint with as broad a brush or with as rich a pallet of literary oils.

You'd love Bradbury, Danigirl. I just know it. (He may be a role model of yours anyway).

Your occupation?

Well ... as long as you are not a patent attorney! It isn' fun when you have a UK patent attorney on £180 ph sorting out a US patent by spending half a day phoning an American patent attorney on £200 ph.

I've been editing and tapping at these keys for a good 30 minutes, attempting to paraphrase something really special from another great writer I admire. Frank Townshend's very rare book,"Earth". I own it but it is with my son in Manchester so I can't reproduce what I wanted to share.

I might as well have been trying to reproduce DeVinci's Mona Lisa with a paint roller, so poor was my attempt.

Ah well.

Scarlet O'Hara

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by On The Beach:
“I have a legitimate excuse for being up also, Urbane. I've just had to shoo away a cat that attempted to attack the pair of fledgling gull chicks I'm currently surrogate father to. They are in my big, walled garden, quite happy and now just about big enough to very nearly fend for themselves ... and they both flew about 20 metres over the potato patch earlier today ... just about 18" off of the ground.

Thanks for your measured and considered thoughts. Yes, I suppose you right. BB must go for specific character types to get the mix they imagine they want every year. I just thought that this year was Archetype Central!

I'd like to comment further on the twins thing though. (You state you don't think twins are archetypes?)

In my mind, the mention of Twins immediately brings up images of the Zodiac symbolism, itself connected with a mythological pedigree that probably makes Twins one of the most commonly used, (and feared) iconic figures in human history. Gemini were the twins from ancient mythology and twins, as a symbol, also represent good and evil, right and wrong, Black and white, etc, etc

What symbol could be more dynamic, so easily conceptualized and in your face than the stark vision of two potential outcomes, two opposing images or two conflicting sides to the same thing.

Also, Romulus and Remus figure prominently as twins suckling from the wolf on many Roman coins. I field walk, find and collect Roman coinage and artifacts and have scores of Constantine coinage of around 330 - 360AD, many with such an inscription on their face.

The Ying and Yang symbol, (I'm guessing, not Googling), probably represents some aspect of the twin archetype, as a symbol or icon, if not as a living representation of something.

Don't quote me on that though. A sleepy :sleep:

Edited this post a few times. Typos etc,”

(Only just spotted this post). You're so right about twins in mythology. Jung said the archetype, when we see it, represents 'psychic fragmentation'. And that would be quite true for Jack and Joe, who seem like light and shade. Eros and Thanatos even!

But twins in mythology also represent wholeness, and a unifying force. It was brilliantly realised in BB by 'Samanda', who were practically the same person and seemed psychically connected.

As An Thropologist said in his/her great post above, they appear to have been peddling these archetypes for years.

On The Beach

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by diesels hummin:
“I would just like to make it clear that i was jokingly quoting the OP.”

Every survival kit should include a sense of humour, Diesel. Glad to see you have brought yours along.

danigirl

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by On The Beach:
“Yes. I hear you, Danigirl. Your words are, "As clear as an azure sky of deepest summer", as Alex DeLarge would have acknowledged.

My literary role model, Ray Bradbury, the iconic science fiction author, always said the following to students. I'll be paraphrasing cos it was from a Youtube video. The net is teeming with similar Bradbury quotes.

"Students. You must write something every day of your life. It doesn't matter if what you write is poor. It doesn't matter if what you write is just average. All that matters is making sure you write ... because, occasionally, just now and then, you won't write something poor, you won't write something average ... You will write something EXTRA-ORDINARY".

Sorry Ray. Best I could do but I think the sentiment has survived even if I have failed to paint with as broad a brush or with as rich a pallet of literary oils.

You'd love Bradbury, Danigirl. I just know it. (He may be a role model of yours anyway).

Your occupation?

Well ... as long as you are not a patent attorney! It isn' fun when you have a UK patent attorney on £180 ph sorting out a US patent by spending half a day phoning an American patent attorney on £200 ph.

I've been editing and tapping at these keys for a good 30 minutes, attempting to paraphrase something really special from another great writer I admire. Frank Townshend's very rare book,"Earth". I own it but it is with my son in Manchester so I can't reproduce what I wanted to share.

I might as well have been trying to reproduce DeVinci's Mona Lisa with a paint roller, so poor was my attempt.

Ah well.”

I have to say, Beach, you have a way with words

Are you by any chance a writer, or a hobby writer? I only ask because I have dabbled in fiction and fanfiction

(don't judge

)

While I've heard of Bradbury, I can't say I've ever read anything of his. My personal literary idols range from my childhood hero Roald Dahl, who started my deeply rooted love for fantasy, enchantment and mystery, to Edgar Allen Poe and all sorts in between. I will definitely give Bradbury a look though.

Actually, I'm a hairdresser. And with that one word, I've answered all question to what could cause people to judge me based on my occupation

oulandy

27-07-2013

Maybe that explains, danigirl, why I found your post about flogging rather mysterious. Was it perhaps even a fantasy? I haven't seen anyone flogging. Was it Dan? I know you mentioned him in that context but I couldn't figure it out. If so, whom was he flogging? When and where did this occur?

On The Beach

27-07-2013

Yep, Scarlet,

Bringers of doom or heralds of good fortune, TWINS have been at the heart of mythology, folklore, and culture since the very first pages of human history were written down back in Mesopotamia in approx 2000 BC. The Epic of Gilgamesh.

The first book, (well, poem), ever conceived used twins as the literary device.

Back then, 4000 years ago, stuff wasn't just scribbled down on the back of a rush beer mat. Oh no. Each wedge shaped symbol, Cunieform text - the precursor to Egyptian heiroglyphic, was pressed firmly into a moist slab of clay till baked or hardened in the sun. And there they lay ... destined to become the oldest surviving works of literature that has ever been found on this ancient spinning rock. A poetic, epic tale that would, by its mere existence, turn unrecorded pre prehistory ... into history!

---

Think I'm going to look at Digital Spy's other forums. Been on them much, Scarlet? Are they the same as here?

I used wayback machine to view this place as of a decade ago ... and you couldn't tell the difference.

Same questions over and over again ... for a decade?

It gave me the willies to imagine being incarcerated within one forum environment ... for a decade.

Is everyone single on Digital Spy?

On The Beach

27-07-2013

Danigirl,

Help me out here.

It is obvious that there will come a time, sooner rather than later, when I won't be able to shoehorn one of my own original posts into the BB scenario ... so am asking you what the other forums are like.

danigirl

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by oulandy:
“Maybe that explains, danigirl, why I found your post about flogging rather mysterious. Was it perhaps even a fantasy? I haven't seen anyone flogging. Was it Dan? I know you mentioned him in that context but I couldn't figure it out. If so, whom was he flogging? When and where did this occur?”

That post was in response to a different thread about barbarism and human evolution and have we changed or do we still enjoy barbaric acts, etc. Also note the term flogging is in quotes, ie, not meant to be taken literally.

danigirl

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by On The Beach:
“Danigirl,

Help me out here.

It is obvious that there will come a time, sooner rather than later, when I won't be able to shoehorn one of my own original posts into the BB scenario ... so am asking you what the other forums are like.”

On DS?

I haven't really been to any other forums on DS, but I have heard that general discussion is a place where you can have general, meaningful discussions. I should warn that some posters on there can get rather vicious, I've heard.

DavetheSensible

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by On The Beach:
“since the very first pages of human history were written down back in Mesopotamia in approx 2000 BC. The Epic of Gilgamesh.”

Um, you can trace parts of the Epic of Gilgamesh back a further 200 years to other Sumerian documents. It's something of a compendium. And there's at least a couple of others dating to around 2600BC or slightly later - the Acccadian 'Legend of Etana' for example.

Scarlet O'Hara

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by On The Beach:
“Yep, Scarlet,

Bringers of doom or heralds of good fortune, TWINS have been at the heart of mythology, folklore, and culture since the very first pages of human history were written down back in Mesopotamia in approx 2000 BC. The Epic of Gilgamesh.

The first book, (well, poem), ever conceived used twins as the literary device.

Back then, 4000 years ago, stuff wasn't just scribbled down on the back of a rush beer mat. Oh no. Each wedge shaped symbol, Cunieform text - the precursor to Egyptian heiroglyphic, was pressed firmly into a moist slab of clay till baked or hardened in the sun. And there they lay ... destined to become the oldest surviving works of literature that has ever been found on this ancient spinning rock. A poetic, epic tale that would, by its mere existence, turn unrecorded pre prehistory ... into history!

---

Think I'm going to look at Digital Spy's other forums. Been on them much, Scarlet? Are they the same as here?

I used wayback machine to view this place as of a decade ago ... and you couldn't tell the difference.

Same questions over and over again ... for a decade?

It gave me the willies to imagine being incarcerated within one forum environment ... for a decade.

Is everyone single on Digital Spy?”

I have no idea if they're all single. But we must lead unfulfilled lives.

I've dipped into the politics and general discussion forums for a look but the rabid right wing sensibilities turned me off. So I keep my own habits seasonal, limited to the odd TV series. This one mostly. Maybe a little skip into The Apprentice when it's on.

So I don't know if the BB forum is representative or its own little microcosm.

V interesting reading the rest of your post. You certainly know your history. Bagsy you for my pub quiz team.

On The Beach

27-07-2013

This forum, wonderful as it is, is just about 100% , full on, wall to wall BB - 24/7 ... Right?

Ah well. I'm going to live here in this thread then.

Can't be doing with groundhog day reappearing every 5 minutes.

DavetheSensible

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by On The Beach:
“Can't be doing with groundhog day reappearing every 5 minutes.”

Can't be doing with groundhog day reappearing every 5 minutes.

I'm sorry - childish sense of humour got the better of me.

Always does ...

Scarlet O'Hara

27-07-2013

As long as you crowbar "BB" into the odd post, you should escape unnoticed.

And if your thread gets invaded by Hazel haters, Gina worshippers and Sam somnambulists, it'll be "right lads, to the mini".

On The Beach

27-07-2013

Originally Posted by Scarlet O'Hara:
“I have no idea if they're all single. But we must lead unfulfilled lives.

I've dipped into the politics and general discussion forums for a look but the rabid right wing sensibilities turned me off. So I keep my own habits seasonal, limited to the odd TV series. This one mostly. Maybe a little skip into The Apprentice when it's on.

So I don't know if the BB forum is representative or its own little microcosm.

V interesting reading the rest of your post. You certainly know your history. Bagsy you for my pub quiz team.”

OK. Tah for your thoughts.

I'd written that stuff earlier, planning to put a thread up about the twins doing my head in and was going to wrap that up in a titchy bit of twin mythology.

Wish you had a sub forum here where it was possible to sometimes step away from BB traffic. I love it too ... when it is HL or LF but not 24/7.

Is that blasphemy around these parts?

Rhetorical. No need to reply.

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