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BT Sports Channel (Part 2)
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D.M.N.
18-10-2014
Here are the viewing figures are faring year-on-year for Sky and BT:

BT Sport - after 7 games
2013-14 - 393k (4.7%) / 210 minutes
* if the extra 25 minutes averaged 20k: 443k
* if the extra 25 minutes averaged 50k: 439k
* if the extra 25 minutes averaged 100k: 433k
2014-15 - 589k (7.1%) / 185 minutes

Sky Sports - after 23 games
2013-14 - 1.21m (8.3%) / 190 minutes
2014-15 - 1.06m (7.6%) / 197 minutes
* if the extra 7 minutes averaged 20k: 1.09m

About a 10 percent drop so far for Sky and a 34 percent increase for BT.
mlt11
19-10-2014
Originally Posted by casinoman13:
“would the Prem League really be happy to offer Sky what they already have even if BT offer a substantial amount more than what Sky are?”

As referred to in post 5316, it's almost certain that the PL could not legally do this.

Under the 2007/13 agreement between the PL and the EC the PL had to award every individual package to the highest bidder for that package (the only exception being where it would mean any one bidder winning more than the maximum number of packages).

The PL has already stated that the 2013/16 auction was conducted on a similar basis.

And it is almost certain that the same will apply for 2016/19.

Worth remembering at this point VM's complaint to OFCOM re the process for selling PL rights - in the light of that it's incredibly unlikely such a condition will not apply again next time.

NB. I guess some people may try and argue that the PL could still "secretly" favour Sky by ordering another round of bidding if Sky does not bid highest. That is true - but the point is that Sky would still have to outbid BT on a particular bidding round to be awarded rights.

A few broader points:

- I see no reason for the PL to favour Sky over BT - the PL wants to maximise revenues and they are both companies who will do a good job televising games etc. The PL isn't going to favour Sky "out of the kindness of its heart". The PL will do what is best for the PL.

- Notwithstanding the above paragraph, the PL wants strong competition going forward so it is in its interests to keep both Sky and BT "healthy". However that can be achieved by setting a maximum number of games any one company can win.

- If there was a "stich-up" then there would be no incentive for Sky and BT to bid aggressively against each other - ie if they just put in bids with a nod and a wink for different agreed packages then they could both potentially bid far lower than was otherwise the case if they were genuinely competing against each other (though they would be taking a risk that someone else could come out of the blue to outbid them both).
mlt11
19-10-2014
Originally Posted by D.M.N.:
“Here are the viewing figures are faring year-on-year for Sky and BT:

BT Sport - after 7 games
2013-14 - 393k (4.7%) / 210 minutes
* if the extra 25 minutes averaged 20k: 443k
* if the extra 25 minutes averaged 50k: 439k
* if the extra 25 minutes averaged 100k: 433k
2014-15 - 589k (7.1%) / 185 minutes

Sky Sports - after 23 games
2013-14 - 1.21m (8.3%) / 190 minutes
2014-15 - 1.06m (7.6%) / 197 minutes
* if the extra 7 minutes averaged 20k: 1.09m

About a 10 percent drop so far for Sky and a 34 percent increase for BT.”

Substantial increase for BT - obviously reflects the fact BT was coming from a standing start at the beginning of last season - many more homes will now have BT than was the case a year ago.

The Sky figure is less obvious - would need to do a detailed analysis to determine whether game quality any weaker this time. I know Man Utd had 3 big head to heads at the start of last season whereas they have had no such games so far this season - that may partially explain it.

Also the game on Ryder Cup Sunday had an appalling rating - though that is only one game so would maybe account for say approx 2%.

I'm sure you've checked the details but I'm a bit surprised the Sky average programme length is only up 7 mins. There is an extra 15 mins of intro on every SNF and many of the Sun 4pm games have an extra 30 mins of outro. There are also more MNFs (ie the longest programme) scheduled in the first half of this season though not sure about the first 7 weeks on its own.
popeye13
19-10-2014
Originally Posted by mlt11:
“As referred to in post 5316, it's almost certain that the PL could not legally do this.

Under the 2007/13 agreement between the PL and the EC the PL had to award every individual package to the highest bidder for that package (the only exception being where it would mean any one bidder winning more than the maximum number of packages).

The PL has already stated that the 2013/16 auction was conducted on a similar basis.

And it is almost certain that the same will apply for 2016/19.

Worth remembering at this point VM's complaint to OFCOM re the process for selling PL rights - in the light of that it's incredibly unlikely such a condition will not apply again next time.

NB. I guess some people may try and argue that the PL could still "secretly" favour Sky by ordering another round of bidding if Sky does not bid highest. That is true - but the point is that Sky would still have to outbid BT on a particular bidding round to be awarded rights.

A few broader points:

- I see no reason for the PL to favour Sky over BT - the PL wants to maximise revenues and they are both companies who will do a good job televising games etc. The PL isn't going to favour Sky "out of the kindness of its heart". The PL will do what is best for the PL.

- Notwithstanding the above paragraph, the PL wants strong competition going forward so it is in its interests to keep both Sky and BT "healthy". However that can be achieved by setting a maximum number of games any one company can win.

- If there was a "stich-up" then there would be no incentive for Sky and BT to bid aggressively against each other - ie if they just put in bids with a nod and a wink for different agreed packages then they could both potentially bid far lower than was otherwise the case if they were genuinely competing against each other (though they would be taking a risk that someone else could come out of the blue to outbid them both).”

Another excellent post @mlt11
casinoman13
19-10-2014
Originally Posted by promo-only:
“Precisely what's thought when I first read it too. It leaves you thinking that the next tender will be a straight forward process in which Sky maintain their 116 games while the Premier League add more games into the mix so BT can be happy with an increase. i know the Premier League say they cut the umbilical cord once the tender goes out but it's down to the individual as to whether you believe that for a second or not...”

Interesting Derek Rae has been tweeting a lot about a possible Sunday package, looks like this debate will go on and on...
Jonny_Bentley1
20-10-2014
Any average figures for Saturday's game?
mlt11
20-10-2014
Overnights:

Man C v Spurs (BT) - 604,000
QPR v Liverpool (Sky) - 1,120,000
Stoke v Swansea (Sky) - 946,000
casinoman13
20-10-2014
Originally Posted by mlt11:
“Overnights:

Man C v Spurs (BT) - 604,000
QPR v Liverpool (Sky) - 1,120,000
Stoke v Swansea (Sky) - 946,000”

Pretty much in line on what we would of expected, perhaps 500k short on the Man City game but really and truly nothing special any where.
Jonny_Bentley1
20-10-2014
Originally Posted by casinoman13:
“Pretty much in line on what we would of expected, perhaps 500k short on the Man City game but really and truly nothing special any where.”

Actually exceeds what I had in mind.
Man City v Everton last season got a measly 377k in the same slot and City-Hull and Hull-City (both 303k) were proof City were hardly the pulling magnet of United, Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool.
It looks something like this:
1st United
2nd Liverpool
3rd Chelsea
4th Arsenal
5th Man City
6th Tottenham
7th Everton
8th Newcastle
PaulLFC
22-10-2014
Not sure if these have been posted already but can't see them - ratings from Monday:

BT Sport 1 - w/e 12 Oct 2014
1 AVIVA PREMIERSHIP RUGBY (SAT 1431) 146
2 AVIVA PREMIERSHIP RUGBY (SUN 1300) 97
3 UEFA UNDER 21 CHAMPIONSHIP 2015 QUALIFYI (FRI 1739 63
4 RUGBY TONIGHT (MON 2000) 46
5 THE VANARAMA CONFERENCE (WED 1930) 37
6 UEFA UNDER 21 CHAMPIONSHIP 2015 QUALIFYI (SAT 1159 28
7 THE CLARE BALDING SHOW (THU 2001) 20
8 SPORTSHUB (THU 1900) 18
9 SPORTSHUB (FRI 1942) 16
10 SERIE A REVIEW (THU 1530) 15

BT Sport 2 - w/e 12 Oct 2014
1 AVIVA PREMIERSHIP RUGBY (FRI 1900) 124
2 MOTOGP 2014 (SUN 0600) 105
3 MOTOGP 2014 (SAT 2645) 39
4 FA WSL (SUN 1330) 35
5 MOTOGP 2014 (SUN 1159) 35
6 MOTOGP 2014 (SAT 2809) 29
7 MOTOGP 2014 (SAT 0600) 27
8 THE VANARAMA CONFERENCE (SAT 1700) 22
9 MOTOGP 2014 (FRI 2814) 17
10 MOTOGP 2014 (FRI 0600) 16

ESPN - w/e 12 Oct 2014
1 COLLEGE FOOTBALL (SAT 1701) 16
2 ESPN FILLERS 2014 (WED 1948) 15
3 BASEBALL TONIGHT (WED 1915) 12
4 ESPN KICKS (TUE 1518) 12
5 WRC REVIEW (SAT 2835) 10
6 COLLEGE FOOTBALL (FRI 1431) 9
7 ESPN FILLERS 2014 (MON 1320) 8
8 MLB POSTSEASON 2014 (MON 1330) 8
9 COLLEGE FOOTBALL (SUN 1000) 8
10 MLB POSTSEASON 2014 (MON 1348) 7


I'm guessing those are quite good ratings for the rugby given there was no football to lead into them. Seems like a great rating for MotoGP too considering it was an overnight / very early morning race.
NeilVW
22-10-2014
Originally Posted by mlt11:
“I'm sure you've checked the details but I'm a bit surprised the Sky average programme length is only up 7 mins. There is an extra 15 mins of intro on every SNF and many of the Sun 4pm games have an extra 30 mins of outro. There are also more MNFs (ie the longest programme) scheduled in the first half of this season though not sure about the first 7 weeks on its own.”

D.M.N.'s analysis looked at the first 23 Sky programmes, not the first seven weeks, and therefore 2013 went up to 3 November, whereas 2014 goes up to 5 October. Sky's schedule was clearly thinner in the early part of last season. Here is how the average runtimes break down:

2013
Monday night: 5 programmes averaging 237 minutes
Saturday teatime: 10 programmes averaging 176 minutes
Sunday lunchtime: 3 programmes averaging 177 minutes
Sunday teatime: 5 programmes averaging 192 minutes

2014
Monday night: 4 programmes averaging 236 minutes
Saturday teatime: 7 programmes averaging 193 minutes
Sunday lunchtime: 5 programmes averaging 178 minutes
Sunday teatime: 7 programmes averaging 189 minutes

So you can see that there was one fewer (long) Monday Night Football this year among the first 23 broadcasts; an extra two (relatively short) Sunday lunchtimes; and two more (roughly average-length) Sunday teatimes and those came in 3 minutes shorter than in 2013*. Saturday teatimes were indeed 17 minutes longer on average this year but there were three fewer of those. That plus the above factors on other days cancelled out much of the resultant increase.

* Sunday teatimes would have been longer on average this year but for a short programme on 5 October 2014 (143 minutes starting at 16:18. Kick-off was scheduled for 16:15 so it appears Sky submitted a log to BARB with no build-up at all to the teatime game).

Source: Overnights.tv. Data: 2013, 2014.
D.M.N.
22-10-2014
Originally Posted by NeilVW:
“D.M.N.'s analysis looked at the first 23 Sky programmes, not the first seven weeks, and therefore 2013 went up to 3 November, whereas 2014 goes up to 5 October.”

Sorry Neil.... but actually both years go to 5th October. I didn't realise there was a big year-on-year difference for the number of games broadcast up until that point.
NeilVW
22-10-2014
Originally Posted by D.M.N.:
“Sorry Neil.... but actually both years go to 5th October. I didn't realise there was a big year-on-year difference for the number of games broadcast up until that point. ”

Ah, that's why our average runtimes didn't quite tally! Not to worry.
mlt11
22-10-2014
Originally Posted by NeilVW:
“D.M.N.'s analysis looked at the first 23 Sky programmes, not the first seven weeks, and therefore 2013 went up to 3 November, whereas 2014 goes up to 5 October.”

I'm in a rush so don't have any time to check but I don't think the above statement can be right.

There is no significant difference in the number of games picked by Sky between this season and last season. There is no way it could have taken a whole extra month to get to the same number of games last season.
mlt11
22-10-2014
Originally Posted by NeilVW:
“2013
Monday night: 5 programmes averaging 237 minutes
Saturday teatime: 10 programmes averaging 176 minutes
Sunday lunchtime: 3 programmes averaging 177 minutes
Sunday teatime: 5 programmes averaging 192 minutes ”

Just doing a quick scan - there is something major wrong here. There is a Sunday teatime game every week - it is not possible for there to have been 10 Saturday teatime games and only 5 Sunday teatime games in the same period.

There is also a Sunday lunchtime game on the vast majority of weeks.

What seems to have happened is that a large number of games are missing in the 2013 analysis - hence the comment that another month was needed to get to 23 games.

If all games are included you should get to 23 games at the same stage of the season (give or take maybe one game here or there).
NeilVW
22-10-2014
OK, here are Sky's runtimes for 2013 up to 5 October, just 14 programmes (fully 9 fewer than this year):

http://i58.tinypic.com/2ebho3p.jpg

2013
Monday night: 4 programmes averaging 237 minutes
Saturday teatime: 7 programmes averaging 176 minutes
Sunday lunchtime: 1 programme - 177 minutes
Sunday teatime: 2 programmes averaging 200 minutes

2014
Monday night: 4 programmes averaging 236 minutes
Saturday teatime: 7 programmes averaging 193 minutes
Sunday lunchtime: 5 programmes averaging 178 minutes
Sunday teatime: 7 programmes averaging 189 minutes

EDIT: OK, so there must be some missing in 2013 somehow. Not quite sure what happened there but will have a look when my head stops hurting!
mlt11
22-10-2014
Originally Posted by NeilVW:
“OK, here are Sky's runtimes for 2013 up to 5 October, just 14 programmes (fully 9 fewer than this year):

http://i58.tinypic.com/2ebho3p.jpg
”

Thanks for all your work on this but I'm afraid the above link is missing a whole host of games.

For starters there was a Sunday lunchtime and a Sunday teatime game on 18th August.

Numerous other games are also missing.
NeilVW
22-10-2014
Back to the drawing board on that one then. Sorry to cause confusion. The search facility can't have turned up particular games which were named differently. Might have helped if I actually watched Sky football and knew the schedule
Jonny_Bentley1
27-10-2014
BT Sport 1
w/e 19 Oct 2014
7 day data (000s)
1 BARCLAYS PREMIER LEAGUE (SAT 1200) 604
2 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (SAT 1503) 125
3 SCOTTISH PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE (FRI 1931) 63
4 UEFA UNDER 21 CHAMPIONSHIP 2015 QUALIFYI (TUE 1654 57
5 SERIE A (SAT 1933) 55
6 SPORTSHUB (SAT 1718) 46
7 RUGBY TONIGHT (MON 2000) 39
8 FA WSL (THU 1930) 39
9 BUNDESLIGA (SAT 1727) 37
10 SERIE A (SUN 1358) 33

BT Sport 2
w/e 19 Oct 2014
7 day data (000s)
1 MOTOGP 2014 (SUN 0600) 130
2 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (FRI 1859) 109
3 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (SUN 1630) 81
4 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (SAT 1859) 74
5 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (SAT 1500) 66
6 MOTOGP 2014 (SAT 2802) 47
7 MOTOGP 2014 (SAT 2644) 34
8 UFC UNLEASHED (MON 2201) 34
9 MOTOGP 2014 (FRI 2714) 27
10 UFC - ULTIMATE INSIDER - SEASON 3 (MON 2130) 27

ESPN
w/e 19 Oct 2014
7 day data (000s)
1 FRENCH LIGUE 1 (SUN 1445) 13
2 COLLEGE FOOTBALL (SAT 1700) 11
3 COLLEGE FOOTBALL FINAL (SUN 0931) 11
4 MLB POSTSEASON 2014 (WED 2100) 9
5 DTM (SUN 1029) 8
6 ESPN KICKS (SUN 1218) 8
7 WORLD SERIES BY RENAULT (SUN 1127) 8
8 ESPN FILLERS 2013 (13) (SUN 1232) 8
9 DTM (SUN 1245) 7
10 ESPN FILLERS 2013 (13) (TUE 1423) 7
Sideburns57
27-10-2014
Let us hope they get back on the Brazil ntional team horse and show their games - particularly now that Germany are on the downward slope...
jda135
27-10-2014
Originally Posted by Jonny_Bentley1:
“BT Sport 1
w/e 19 Oct 2014
7 day data (000s)
1 BARCLAYS PREMIER LEAGUE (SAT 1200) 604
2 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (SAT 1503) 125
3 SCOTTISH PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE (FRI 1931) 63
4 UEFA UNDER 21 CHAMPIONSHIP 2015 QUALIFYI (TUE 1654 57
5 SERIE A (SAT 1933) 55
6 SPORTSHUB (SAT 1718) 46
7 RUGBY TONIGHT (MON 2000) 39
8 FA WSL (THU 1930) 39
9 BUNDESLIGA (SAT 1727) 37
10 SERIE A (SUN 1358) 33

BT Sport 2
w/e 19 Oct 2014
7 day data (000s)
1 MOTOGP 2014 (SUN 0600) 130
2 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (FRI 1859) 109
3 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (SUN 1630) 81
4 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (SAT 1859) 74
5 EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP (SAT 1500) 66

6 MOTOGP 2014 (SAT 2802) 47
7 MOTOGP 2014 (SAT 2644) 34
8 UFC UNLEASHED (MON 2201) 34
9 MOTOGP 2014 (FRI 2714) 27
10 UFC - ULTIMATE INSIDER - SEASON 3 (MON 2130) 27”

For all the arguing and kerfuffle around the European rugby rights, those ratings are awful. I know the group stages won't rate as well as the knockout rounds, but I expected a bit more than 3 games scraping 100k. The numbers are well down on 2013.

Sky's ratings are not much better either;

Quote:
“1 LIVE INTERNATIONAL RUGBY: AUS V NZ (SAT 0945) 137
2 LIVE RUGBY: EUROPEAN CHAMPIONS CUP (SAT 1700) 114
3 LIVE RUGBY: EUROPEAN CHAMPIONS CUP (SUN 1504) 94

4 NFL WEEK 7 - NEW YORK GIANTS DALLAS CO (SUN 2059) 85
5 LIVE RUGBY: EUROPEAN CHAMPIONS CUP (SAT 1230) 85
6 LIVE: GREECE V NORTHERN IRELAND (TUE 1930) 78
7 LIVE ELITE LEAGUE SPEEDWAY FINAL (FRI 1930) 77
8 LIVE NFL:CINCINNATI INDIANAPOLIS (SUN 1730) 57
9 LIVE RUGBY: EUROPEAN CHAMPIONS CUP (SUN 1230) 42
10 LIVE ODI CRICKET: IND V WI (FRI 0955) 39”

Club rugby seriously needs FTA exposure, or it is in danger of collapsing.
mlt11
27-10-2014
Originally Posted by jda135:
“For all the arguing and kerfuffle around the European rugby rights, those ratings are awful. I know the group stages won't rate as well as the knockout rounds, but I expected a bit more than 3 games scraping 100k. The numbers are well down on 2013.

Sky's ratings are not much better either;

Club rugby seriously needs FTA exposure, or it is in danger of collapsing.”

It should be noted that two of BT's games clashed - ie they had games on both BTS1 and BTS2 at Sat 3pm. So a total of 191k were watching rugby on BTS at that point. Although, of course, that slot had the benefit of the PL lead-in.

However, I fully agree that the ratings aren't at all good - without a PL lead-in hardly any club rugby on BTS is above 100k.

As for the ratings being down on 2013 that's not surprising - because identical content will rate lower on BTS than Sky Sports as BTS is in less homes (and some BTS homes have zero interest in sport, whereas all SS homes do have an interest in sport).

I've posted before that I think the price being paid for club rugby rights has to be questionable given how low the audiences are.

It's also notable that the Aus v NZ international on Sky in a far worse slot (ie Sat 10am) rated higher than any of the European games.
RobSmithS
27-10-2014
Info on next season's BT Sport pricing

Only a post on a help forum but might be worth a glance:

Quote:
“There are going to be 2 options.....a pack A containing the premier league etc and a pack A+B which contains CL football.

To get the european football you need to upgrade to A+B which will cost £4 per month extra if you watch BT sport on a sky box.

But if you have BT TV then the CL will be free. Looks like they are going all out to sell their platform.

Also, it said that 4K matches will be broadcast exclusively on BT TV. And all red button matches will be HD only on BT TV.”

http://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Live-TV-...g/td-p/2187957
digiwigi
27-10-2014
Presumably they'll need a new 4k box next year too? Presumably Sky will go 4k next year and keep it exclusive to Sky so no surprises BT are doing the same. Not so good for Virgin though
Ian Cleverly
27-10-2014
Do BT Sport do, or have ever done a Conference preview/review programme like they do with their European leagues?
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