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Old 09-08-2013, 14:45
philnavigator
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Simple questions, do they exist and does anyone know where I can get them?

I have been using +R DL until now on my Panasonic EX79 DVD rec, but they don't allow any chapter marks on the discs at all. I recently edited something to put on disc that is too big for a -R, but is done in such a way that skipping chapters on the DVD would be ideal when searching for individual segments on playback, so I need a -R DL disc.....Trouble is they don't seem to exist in inkjet printable form!

If they don't I will have to decide whether the disc appearance is more important than navigating it quickly.
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Old 10-08-2013, 17:04
Kodaz
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Simple questions, do they exist and does anyone know where I can get them?
Apparently, yes. (Links to Amazon; for technical reasons, it was harder to search for this in Google).

They *are* pretty rare, though, and that's because DVD-R DL in itself is much less common than +R DL. This is almost certainly because -R DL came out much later than +R DL, and the latter was already supported and established as the standard dual layer DVD format.

Having different "plus" and "minus" versions of blank DVDs is a pointless nuisance anyway. It only exists because the various tech companies couldn't agree and split into two factions.

In the case of single layer discs, +R and -R came out around the same time, and neither side really dominated. In the dual layer battle, it was clear that +R had already won, but they launched the redundant -R DL format anyway.

The differences are minor, and only serve to introduce tedious compatibility issues and confuse people. Thanks guys...

I have been using +R DL until now on my Panasonic EX79 DVD rec, but they don't allow any chapter marks on the discs at all.
Do the -R DL discs definitely allow this? It seems strange that they would if the +R DLs didn't, unless Panasonic were trying to artificially force people to use -R DL. (I don't know which- if either- side they're aligned with).

I know that DVD recorders tend to be pickier about +R and -R format support than computer drives, but this still sounds strange.
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Old 10-08-2013, 17:19
mac2708
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Apparently, yes. (Links to Amazon; for technical reasons, it was harder to search for this in Google).
The description of the Verbatim discs is very confusing.
It states on the Amazon link
"Verbatim 43734 DVD-R Blanks 4.7 GB DL. 16x Waterproof Surface 50 on a Spindle"
and if you click on the item a further description states
"Native capacity: 4.7 GB
Type: DVD-R"

If they are dual layer the capacity should be described (I would imagine) as 8.5GB

A further search for Verbatim 43734 brings this (as well as several others) http://www.saverstore.com/product/20...16x-Waterproof

So, they appear to be DVD-R and not DVD-R DL
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Old 10-08-2013, 18:57
Kodaz
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The description of the Verbatim discs is very confusing
Yes, you're right- upon closer inspection they're single layer, and Verbatim's own website (looked up using the 5-digit code) confirms it:-

http://www.verbatim-europe.co.uk/en_...707.html?con=2

Actually, *none* of the matching discs in that Amazon listing are clearly -R DL. Sorry about that.

I can at least say they definitely existed at one point:-

http://www.verbatim-europe.co.uk/en_...l?disc=1&con=2

...but those are "no longer available". Not very helpful, sorry. As I said, -R DL itself isn't common because it never took off, since there was no real reason for its launch in the first place.
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Old 13-08-2013, 12:01
philnavigator
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Thanks for the input, but it looks like I am out of luck!

The Panasonic manual shows a tick in the chart for 'allows chapters' next to -R & -R DL, but not next to +R or +R DL. I have only ever used -R and +R DL to this point, and the -R allows the chapters, whilst the +R DL does not.

With this machine, using flexible rec mode when you have more footage than the discs capacity involves the machine randomly making chapters every 5-7 mins on the finished disc. Alternatively, if you can high speed it, the chapters I create will be set on the finished disc. Testing both these methods on a +R DL results in no chapters, which is annoying, hence why I went in search of -R DL, the printable type preferably.

I also considered buying one -RW DL and using it first and then copying it on my pc, to see if it would copy the chapters to +R DL printable, but I can't find a -RW DL anywhere on planet Earth either........

So I am back to choosing between my edited, convenient chapters, or a printed final disc.
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Old 13-08-2013, 12:43
alan1302
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So I am back to choosing between my edited, convenient chapters, or a printed final disc.
Convenient chapters everytime - a printed discs not really important
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Old 13-08-2013, 17:48
philnavigator
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I might just try some of the non printable -R DL discs and see if I copy them on my pc to a printable +R DL, if the chapters go with them. It was what I thought of doing with a -RW DL, if they existed. Its not something I would do regularly, but I really would like these ones to have chapters and be printed on!
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Old 13-08-2013, 23:58
webbie
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How about some dvd labels for you printer?
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Old 15-08-2013, 22:16
Kodaz
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How about some dvd labels for you printer?
Those aren't recommended, generally. The discs spin at very high speed and from what I've heard even a minor imbalance (caused by an imperfectly-placed label) can lead to wobble and read problems.

(With CD-Rs, it's also possible that an unsuitable adhesive could damage the data layer immediately underneath the top of the disc. This wouldn't apply to recordable DVDs, which have the data layer in the middle, but it's worth remembering).
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Old 16-08-2013, 12:59
webbie
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I've labelled loads and never had a problem. And I've printed on loads of discs too. Now I just rip to a portable hard disk. Much easier to access.
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Old 18-08-2013, 00:26
majorgart
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Whether chapter marks can be added depends on the recorder not the discs.
If your Panasonic hard drive allows you to add chapter points these should transfer to any blanks as long its a high speed bit for bit burn.
If you do a real time re-encode chapter marks will not transfer but most recorders will usually add them at 5 or 10 minute intervals
Widescreen switching is another thing that may depend on the age of your recorder.
Older Panny machines won't transfer it.

I use Pioneer recorders but they pulled out of the market so I don't know what I'm going to do when it dies because Panasonic machines have one fatal flaw.
The implementation of flexible recording mode is rubbish as it does not allow for editing.

For example - you want to transfer several episodes of a series to from Tivo or Sky+ ready for burning to disc after editing.
Lets say the total running time of each episode without ads is 22 minutes . So for 6 episodes thats 132 minutes .
On my Pioneer recorder I set the recording level to 130 minutes and then use the One Touc Record to run for either 3 hours or 3.5 hours to ensure it records all the programmes .
Once I've divided the block into 6 , edited the ads and padding I have 6 episodes all ready to copy to disc in a high speed burn that should take about 10 minutes and maximises quality by filling the disc .

Set your Panasonic to 130 minutes and it will switch off after 130 minutes .
If the block of recordings will take 3 hours you need to set the Panny to 3 hours but of course after editing you'll have 50 minutes of wasted space and quality.

Other than set a timer recording or do the transfers one at a time the Panasonic is really fiddly when it comes to this sort of thing.
And if you record it all in XP and do a real time re-encode the WSS is lost.

I'd love to discover that Panny had sorted this issue out but the last time I got one ( as an insurance replacement for a dead Pioneer) I only kept it a couple of days and I had to sell it in order to get a Pioneer .

Generally -RDL are more expensive than +RDL and if you can't add chapters to +RDL I doubt you can with -RDL either.
My latest pack of 25 +RDL printable were under 8 on ebay- the AONE brand which I find to be very reliable

Don't bother with stick on lables . While they are ok much of the time they can give problems with playback for some people and labels have been known to come unstuck in players so many people won't touch them
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Old 18-08-2013, 01:38
jjne
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I was under the impression that -RW VR mode (which allows editing/chapter editing) was a feature specific to -RW media, introduced to emulate DVD-RAM media. As such, neither -R nor +R write-once discs would have this feature.

I suppose that if newer -RW recorders (I haven't owned any of the newer devices) have this feature with -R, then they will not have enabled it on +R which has its own, strictly RW-only editing format.
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Old 18-08-2013, 21:23
pull2open.
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I was under the impression that -RW VR mode (which allows editing/chapter editing) was a feature specific to -RW media, introduced to emulate DVD-RAM media. As such, neither -R nor +R write-once discs would have this feature.

I suppose that if newer -RW recorders (I haven't owned any of the newer devices) have this feature with -R, then they will not have enabled it on +R which has its own, strictly RW-only editing format.
-RW(VR) does allow chapter editing - that is you can actually delete footage like you can with RAM/HDD but that is not what is being discussed here which is adding chapter points .
All that feature is that you can press a key and it adds a chapter point to the recording so once the dvd is finished you can use these points to skip chapters instead of having to FF through an entire recording to reach a certain point.

Most recorders can auto add them at 5 or 10 minute intervals so if your recording is one hour then during playback 4 presses of the chapter skip key and you'll be 50 minutes in - if you can't add chapters you'd have to use FF to get to the 50 minute mark

Panasonic machines won't record to -RW in VR mode anyway - only VIDEO mode
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Old 23-08-2013, 20:37
philnavigator
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How about some dvd labels for you printer?
I have used them in the past and found that the heat in the machine during playback eventually loosens the labels in places, causing intermittent breakup of picture and sound. Having recorded the entire seven series of Star Trek Voyager myself, editing ads etc and printing labels for every disc, the set is useless because of the labels!
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Old 23-08-2013, 21:03
philnavigator
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Whether chapter marks can be added depends on the recorder not the discs.
If your Panasonic hard drive allows you to add chapter points these should transfer to any blanks as long its a high speed bit for bit burn.
If you do a real time re-encode chapter marks will not transfer but most recorders will usually add them at 5 or 10 minute intervals
Widescreen switching is another thing that may depend on the age of your recorder.
Older Panny machines won't transfer it.
My Panasonic will transfer any chapter points onto a -rDL disc in high speed copying, but it won't allow me to High speed onto a +rDL because of the WS switching, so I don't know if it will add the chapters. However there is still a difference between + & - on my machine, because if you transfer to disc using FR mode, it will put chapters in as you said, every 5-10 mins, but not on a +rDL. I have tried a few of these and am always left with no chapters and having to forward to points midway through. This appears to contradict what you say, but whatever the reason, its how it is with my machine at least, which is a DMR EX79EB from 2010.
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Old 23-08-2013, 21:16
philnavigator
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For example - you want to transfer several episodes of a series to from Tivo or Sky+ ready for burning to disc after editing.
Lets say the total running time of each episode without ads is 22 minutes . So for 6 episodes thats 132 minutes .
On my Pioneer recorder I set the recording level to 130 minutes and then use the One Touc Record to run for either 3 hours or 3.5 hours to ensure it records all the programmes .
Once I've divided the block into 6 , edited the ads and padding I have 6 episodes all ready to copy to disc in a high speed burn that should take about 10 minutes and maximises quality by filling the disc .

Set your Panasonic to 130 minutes and it will switch off after 130 minutes .
If the block of recordings will take 3 hours you need to set the Panny to 3 hours but of course after editing you'll have 50 minutes of wasted space and quality.
Not sure I follow this entirely, but I am assuming that when you say you set your Pioneer for 130mins, you are telling it that this will be the amount of time they will take up when edited, so it records from the Sky+ at the quality level necessary to get the best picture possible on a finalised 130min dvd.

If so, then the equivalent on the Panasonic would be to use the SP mode, which allows 120mins on a single layer disc, then chop the extras off to leave your 6x22min episodes, then burn using FR mode. The finished quality should be the same, but the Panasonic will not allow you to burn it at High speed and will thus add random chapters, whereas yours will do High speed, with chapters of your choice.

If I have that right, then I see the advantage, if I haven't then I am seeing nothing!
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Old 23-08-2013, 21:22
philnavigator
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The good news for my original problem is that I have found a (time consuming) workaround, that I mentioned earlier. I have bought some -rDL discs and found that when I burn them at High speed on the Panasoinc, with chapters, then copy them on my pc using Imgburn, onto a +rDL, the chapters are transferred. So now I can have printable discs with the chapters where I want them!

Its obviously too costly and long winded to do routinely, but for the particular recordings I have to do right now, its the only solution that ticks all the boxes. I only wish I could find even one -rwDL, as I could reuse that any time I need to do this in the future.....

Thanks for all the input, to all who posted.
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