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Old 23-08-2013, 04:03
thorterr
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just a thought........

Given that the time war is timelocked and amy and rory are timelocked in new york

does that mean that throughout time the doctor cant bump into time lords or a previous jacobi master or even amy and rory

but i think he can ,,river met rory(in his roman gear) knowing that he was already timelocked in new york

surely the time lords where roaming about other planets and saving people and changing lives ,,or is this too deep and complicated to try to work out lol
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Old 23-08-2013, 08:14
Listentome
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My understanding is the Time War was a war across time so it destroyed all the Time Lords throughout time apart from The Doctor and The Master. So there are no Time Lords in the past. They only existed in so much that The Doctor can remember them.

Hence why we have heard other characters refer to them as legends, some other races like the Kryllitanes can remember them but it would seem most alien races only know of them because they had past conflicts with the Doctor.

I guess it's similar to things being removed from having ever existed by the crack, some people who were at the heart of events have a vague recollection but no memories of the Time Lords.

Those that were on Gallifrey are locked at the moment of their destruction.
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Old 23-08-2013, 08:30
Sh'boobie
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My understanding of what happened to the Timelords vs what happened to Amy & Rory are quite different.

The Timelords are 'Time Locked' in a permanant stasis, essentially existing in one fixed moment, forever, in a pocket universe that exists outside of time (like being trapped in amber).

Whereas Amy & Rory do exist within time & space, (New York in the 1930's - to be precise) - but the Doctor can't visit or rescue them - as with the removal of the Angels' New York colony from throughout time, the resultant paradoxes across New York - of the angel's removal and thier victims return - are so numerous - that any additional interference might rip apart the fabric of time & space.

This doesn't explain however, why the Doctor couldn't simply land in New Jersey and pick up the Ponds from there. This is why their exit still annoys me GIGANTICLY to this day.
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Old 23-08-2013, 08:48
Orri
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We've seen what a time lock is. Think of it as being frozen in amber. The closing act of the Time War seems to have been a final all out attack on Gallifrey that drew all the remaining Timelord and Dalek forces into the same space and time at which point, I assume, the Doctor set of a device which trapped them all. The whole Last of the Timelords thing was the last desperate attempt to escape that fate before the trap was complete. The actions of the Time War are what really did the damage removing whole civilizations from history in order to gain advantage. The Time War is also a great way of avoiding having to pay to much attention to continuity although the recreation of the universe after the Big Bang might mean that it's now back to almost the same shape as it was at the end of the old series.

Rory and Amy aren't timelocked in that manner as they still experience the passing of time. What they are is embedded so they can't time travel.
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Old 23-08-2013, 08:48
Fairyprincess0
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My understanding of what happened to the Timelords vs what happened to Amy & Rory are quite different.

The Timelords are 'Time Locked' in a permanant stasis, essentially existing in one fixed moment, forever, in a pocket universe that exists outside of time (like being trapped in amber).

Whereas Amy & Rory do exist within time & space, (New York in the 1930's - to be precise) - but the Doctor can't visit or rescue them - as with the removal of the Angels' New York colony from throughout time, the resultant paradoxes across New York - of the angel's removal and thier victims return - are so numerous - that any additional interference might rip apart the fabric of time & space.

This doesn't explain however, why the Doctor couldn't simply land in New Jersey and pick up the Ponds from there. This is why their exit still annoys me GIGANTICLY to this day.
I've been past that cemetery, when I went to new York. You don't even need to go to jersey, queen's would have done. Half hour cab drive away.....
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Old 23-08-2013, 08:58
andy1231
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Why could'nt the Ponds simply have got on a liner and sailed back to England ? Or got a train to say Los Angeles and rejoined the Doctor there ? There are dozens of ways they could have got away from New York, just another example of lazy writing where he wrote himself into a corner and couldn't get out of it.
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Old 23-08-2013, 09:04
Sh'boobie
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Why could'nt the Ponds simply have got on a liner and sailed back to England ? Or got a train to say Los Angeles and rejoined the Doctor there ? There are dozens of ways they could have got away from New York, just another example of lazy writing where he wrote himself into a corner and couldn't get out of it.
Also, how come the Doctor couldn't possibly travel back in time to save them - yet River is free to come & go as she pleases, dropping in to Amy in the 1930's to tell her to write the 'Afterward' in that book?

Ridiculous!!!

Worst. Inescapable. Fate. Ever.

So TOTALLY escapable.
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Old 23-08-2013, 09:18
Brass Drag0n
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Yeah, the Pond's exit really does make no sense at all - just because Amy and Rory's graves are in New York doesn't mean they couldn't have been pick up by the Doctor in another city a few weeks/months/years after the events in The Angels Take Manhatten and then spent years and years travelling with the Doctor or even living back in their house in the present. It's a show about time travel FFS.

All he actually has to ensure is that they are dropped off in 1970/80s New York in their old age so that they can live out their last few years there.

The plot device of book saying "and they never met each other again" has to be one of the laziest conclusions I've ever seen.
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Old 23-08-2013, 09:20
DariaM
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My understanding of what happened to the Timelords vs what happened to Amy & Rory are quite different.

The Timelords are 'Time Locked' in a permanant stasis, essentially existing in one fixed moment, forever, in a pocket universe that exists outside of time (like being trapped in amber).

Whereas Amy & Rory do exist within time & space, (New York in the 1930's - to be precise) - but the Doctor can't visit or rescue them - as with the removal of the Angels' New York colony from throughout time, the resultant paradoxes across New York - of the angel's removal and thier victims return - are so numerous - that any additional interference might rip apart the fabric of time & space.

This doesn't explain however, why the Doctor couldn't simply land in New Jersey and pick up the Ponds from there. This is why their exit still annoys me GIGANTICLY to this day.
Within Stargate SG1 (Season S06E12 "Unnatural Selection", broadcast 01-10-2003), We learn that the Asgard had failed in their attempt to lock the Replicators into "Time Stasis" with a "Time Dilation Advice"- and that the Replicators had evolved into human form.

http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s6/612.shtml
The Asgard's most recent failed plan involved a time-dilation device, Thor explains. In studying the android Reese ("Menace"), they discovered a way to signal all Replicators in the universe to come to them. Once they were all there, on the mostly-evacuated Asgard world, the time-dilation device would be activated. It created a bubble around the planet in which time was slowed down by a factor of 10,000 -- effectively trapping the bugs there long-term, until the Asgard could find a way to eliminate them for good.

But the Replicators stopped the device from going off, and even managed to reverse its function. Now, time within the field is passing 100 times faster than normal.
The 2005+ storyline for Dr Who has yet to establish the type of contrivance used to create a Time Bubble - it may be a similar type to the Time Dilation Device deployed by the Asgard in Stargate SG1 (lets not be churlish to Russel T Davies in presuming that he was watching Stargate SG1 during 2003, or even suggest that someone, having watched the earlier Star Trek Enterprise, thought that the idea of a Time War would be a neat idea.
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Old 23-08-2013, 11:28
Granny McSmith
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Isn't the fact that the Doctor can't see the Ponds anymore because it was written in the book he was reading, and having been written and read, it became a fixed point, and couldn't be altered?

And because it's a fixed point and couldn't be altered, it had to be written that way. Timey wimey stuff.

Of course, it still doesn't make sense.
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Old 23-08-2013, 11:33
Sh'boobie
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Books can be re-written.
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Old 23-08-2013, 11:55
Granny McSmith
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Books can be re-written.
Apparently this one couldn't because, as I said, it had already been read and acted upon by the Doctor.
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Old 23-08-2013, 12:10
thorterr
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWU6XL9xI4k

so rory and amy's son visits brian and tells him all about them ,,,how can that happen?
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Old 23-08-2013, 12:12
Granny McSmith
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWU6XL9xI4k

so rory and amy's son visits brian and tells him all about them ,,,how can that happen?
He's able to travel by normal methods.
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Old 23-08-2013, 13:31
Thrombin
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Isn't the fact that the Doctor can't see the Ponds anymore because it was written in the book he was reading, and having been written and read, it became a fixed point, and couldn't be altered?

And because it's a fixed point and couldn't be altered, it had to be written that way. Timey wimey stuff.

Of course, it still doesn't make sense.
I've never understood this nonsense about "having been written and read it becomes immutable". You can write anything in a book. it doesn't have to be true so why would reading something that someone else could have entirely fabricated make it inevitable?
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Old 23-08-2013, 13:36
Sh'boobie
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Apparently this one couldn't because, as I said, it had already been read and acted upon by the Doctor.
Okay then, revised - with later updated editions published.
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Old 23-08-2013, 13:40
Sh'boobie
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWU6XL9xI4k

so rory and amy's son visits brian and tells him all about them ,,,how can that happen?
Because Moffat hadn't thought out the obvious, multiple flaws in his 'inescapable fate' scenario.

Amy & Rory weren't Time Locked. They were stranded in an ealier time, which eventually lead to the present day - when thier son finally visited Brian. (But only after Amy & Rory had left the present day for the final time, so as not to disturb established timelines.)
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Old 23-08-2013, 14:09
thorterr
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my brain has just fried lol
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Old 23-08-2013, 14:12
CoalHillJanitor
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I've never understood this nonsense about "having been written and read it becomes immutable". You can write anything in a book. it doesn't have to be true so why would reading something that someone else could have entirely fabricated make it inevitable?
Moffat is the head writer. He's used to whatever he writes becoming immutable.
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Old 23-08-2013, 15:33
Granny McSmith
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I've never understood this nonsense about "having been written and read it becomes immutable". You can write anything in a book. it doesn't have to be true so why would reading something that someone else could have entirely fabricated make it inevitable?
Okay then, revised - with later updated editions published.
I hope no one is expecting me to answer these posts because I haven't a clue how a book can be a fixed point.

It just is, in this particular case.
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Old 23-08-2013, 15:40
tinny
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I say though it kind of undoes the story if they can be unnloccked , the angels work as they aare no way out where as daleks etc have a override about them
thats llife things dontt always go the dr's way and makes for aan interesting storrry
ax
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Old 23-08-2013, 16:34
Pull2Open
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Also, how come the Doctor couldn't possibly travel back in time to save them - yet River is free to come & go as she pleases, dropping in to Amy in the 1930's to tell her to write the 'Afterward' in that book?

Ridiculous!!!

Worst. Inescapable. Fate. Ever.

So TOTALLY escapable.
I understood that her being able to see them in the 30s was because it was already part of River's future ie she had already written that book in her future and it had already been published by Amy and Rory. Basically, River was making a mental note to make sure she asks Amy to put in the Afterward. She wasn't off to change history, she was already part of it!
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Old 23-08-2013, 17:22
johnnysaucepn
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It's not the location that's the problem! It's not geography, it's the events surrounding New York, and Amy and Rory, and the Angels. He can't risk pulling on those threads any more than he already has. Sure, he can choose to disbelieve the words written in the book - but what if he's wrong? What if what Amy wrote was the truth - that they never saw him again? He risks all of space and time, and most of all - potentially destroying Amy and Rory's happy life together.

Being impossible is only part of it - the Doctor does the impossible every day - but it would be selfish.

Oh, and I should mention that Amy and Rory weren't timelocked.
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Old 23-08-2013, 18:29
korbany
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Maybe the Doctor simply came up with another of his 'clever lies', to get out of seeing Amy again.
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Old 23-08-2013, 18:57
W._O._Frobozz
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"Time locked" just means "We hate the Time Lords" in Moffat/Davies speak.

Suuure everyone from Davros to his wicked step sister can get through the "lock" but none of those nasty Time Lords will ever get through. We hate them, they suck.

Sure, let's create a "sorta but not" Time Lord in River Song...but don't ever expect someone like Romana to ever appear, even though her survival would make more sense than the Master's. Time Lords suck, after all.

And let's create a sexy "Time Agency" with those strapping wristbands that travel through time and costumes that look like they were left over from Adam and the Ants...but no Time Lords please, they suck.

That's what "Time Locked" means.
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