BBC1 has had its fair share of entertainment flops so far this year. But if you look at the shows which have not done well, I would argue they have been more original and innovative than some of the shows which have succeeded on Itv. If you count Splash and Your face sounds familiar as 'successful', both of those are celebrities doing something out of their comfort zone and being voted by the public. Whereas on BBC1, theres been more risky shows which have unfortunately not done well. At the end of the day, what do you want... BBC1 doing lots of celeb-involved 'talent' shows which is bound to get a decent audience at least but not really offer anything too different to what is already on tv or other types of more risky shows like puppets which are more likely to flop but could be quite distinctive. I have high hopes for next year anyway with BBC1 set to launch a Michael McIntyre House Party-esque format, this could be what bbc1 has been missing.

That Puppet Game Show was innovative as it's been years since puppets made an appearance on peak time television, but the execution was terrible and it failed. The BBC really need to, like ITV do, look to the past to provide hits. Michael Macintrye's show sounds promising and if it's like a House Party for the 2010s, it deserves to do well. Also now that Jim Davidson is in the clear, revive The Generation Game with a host like Paul O Grady.
I am more inclined to watch the BBC, though more their minor channels, than ITV, and I know at times ITV shows some awful programmes, but you can't fault their track record this year and there are quite a few shows they make that I enjoy. Also ITV 3 and 4 have long been good.

Great quote from Steve November in Radio Times (31st Aug issue) :"...series four of Downton Abbey is one of the best yet."

Do enlighten us

That's really not true regarding Downton's launch (and how quickly people have applied the rose tinted its success was never in doubt glasses). In reality there were many concerns raised about the shows prospects on ITV both immediate and long term. There were concerns raised that The X Factor while a big lead was entirely the wrong kind of show to lead-in to a drama like Downton Abbey. There were concerns raised that The Prisoner had bombed out of Britain's Got Talent suggesting that drama just doesn't work in these post-talent show slots on ITV. There were concerns raised that ITV had ceded the costume drama crown to the BBC so long ago that audiences simply wouldn't find or respond to one on ITV any more. The adverts would stop people watching a drama like this (I can even remember reading an article about how British advertisers had no idea how to advertise during a show like Downton). People might tune in for the first episode but ultimately the audience for this kind of show just won't stick with ITV. And so on and so on.

Downton Abbey is a soap in an evening dress and much like EastEnders has a relentless pursuit of misery. All the talk of how well the show is written tends to overlook how ropey much of the dialogue is and how terrible almost all of the plotting is. Not to mention the fact that the series seems to have absolutely no coherent grasp on the passage of time. Its not uncommon to find characters continuing conversations as if just hours or days have passed when in fact months have supposedly passed. Whatever merits the show might have had during its first series are long gone now and people just don't want to admit it. Downton Abbey is period (posh) EastEnders it doesn't matter how much money ITV throw at it that's what it is or at the very least that's what its become.


I don't think that makes it innovative.

I think Downton was expected to be a hit but not as big it became, I think the first series, ITV couldn't afford to fully pay for it so Carnival put up the rest of the money and it paid off handsomely, it must be NBCUniversals biggest non US hit and its a winner for PBS and their Masterpiece strand, its surprising they never came on board to coproduce it like they do with Sherlock and Endeavour.

The Miranda/Brucie show was reasonable fun (it felt a bit like Alan Carr's show actually), and good to see an entertaining and watchable entertainment show on BBC1 on a Saturday night (other than SCD itself), but I doubt it will get more than about 4.5m. It was too long, and the filmed sections outside the studio were a bit plodding.

They should maybe have saved it till Christmas though. Might have worked nicely in the gap between the two part SCD final actually - particularly if, as seems increasingly possible, Brucie has announced his retirement in advance of the final. It could have got double the c4.5m it's likely to have got tonight.

But I can see it has obviously been scheduled to fluff up the return of SCD.


Me neither. It was a Monday 8pm/8.30pm staple in my mind, even repeats. Friday 7.40pm is Blankety Blank's slot for me.

However, as ever when Brush Strokes is mentioned in this thread, it gives me a chance to post a link to the opening titles and closing credits, possibly the loveliest of any UK television show (and one of very few shows that made you stay tuned until the very end because of the pleasant tune and the fact that one week he might just run out of time to finish painting that wall....)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLXTzK3uHV4


Ronnie's show isn't about dogs though!




In fairness, it feels like it's been around for awfully longer than four years. Fourteen perhaps....

The Times today really helped the sell the returning series to those of us so far immune to its supposed charms:

"Lady Mary's romantic life is not the only thorny issue to face the denizens of Downton as the new series opens. There is some new-fangled kitchen equipment for a start. The cook is worried about toasters and mixers that would put her out of a job, and the Earl of Grantham is worried about death duty"

Sounds thrilling.... :yawn:

Anyway, looks like kitchen equipment could be the next tie-in to the show alongside paint and old lady bath soap.

Fair play to BBC1 putting a promising new drama series up against it, clearly pitched at those of us who might want something with a bit more edge, verve and bite. (Though those of us of that bent will be tuning in to Homeland in a week or two, of course).

I cant say Iv seen much Downton but this appears an impressive breakdown.

Maybe the point is that sumptuous sets, chocolate box picture settings, soapy feel and fawning media are 90% of the battle-and the other 10% word of mouth about the above.

Whatever the reasons ITV have(whether its good or bad), out of the blue, created true event tv in Downton, destroying the BBC's long winded and expensive efforts to get Upstairs Downstairs successful again. Without DA, UD would still be going imo.

Your original post said that there were many concerns Downton abbey would 'sink' on Itv. That's simply not true. There were obviously some concerns about how it would be received [starting every sentence with 'There were concerns' wasnt necessary, by the way] as Itv hadn't done a drama like it for a while but you are over-exaggerating the whole 'sinking' thing. Most observers, critics and analysts didnt think it would tank and actually expected it would do at the very least alright. Have a look back at all the articles , previews, reports and predictions before the show launched, expectations generally were indeed pretty high, especially following the press preview screening a few weeks prior to TX and the marketing campaign which followed. That's not me looking back with rose-tinted glasses, it is actually how it was and I remember it very clearly. For once a show which had high expectations managed to meet those high expectations and also surpass them. In fact, the guys at Broadcast had articles about a month prior to its first episode predicting why it would be a "major weapon in the Sunday night ratings war". Where exactly are the articles prior to it launching saying that a big XFactor 'reality' lead in could damage a drama like it? On the contrary, most reports were saying the opposite and speculating that with inheritences of upwards of 13million, even with a largely 'reality'-favouring audience, it would do a lot of good for the programme following it. Of course there were articles about if Itv had ceded the costume drama crown to the BBC in the past decade, there was one on BBC News website the night before it premiered, but these articles didnt all speculate that because of this it would flop.

As for your second paragraph, I disagree on the whole. I dont think there is a relentless pursuit of misery, despite a couple of high profile deaths of major characters in the last series which almost had to be done due to the actors not willing to renew their contracts. One of the reasons often quoted for the show's success is due to its 'heartwarming' stories and it has been said to be 'feel good/chocolate box sunday night tv'. Season 2 was a bit ropey particularly in terms of timeline and pacing but series 3 got back on the right track and its quality wasnt noticeably different to what was seen in series 1. Quality wise it still is good, if it was as bad quality wise as youre suggesting it wouldnt still be getting strong reviews from the critics [note how nearly all the writeups are positive about tonights episode], still winning multiple awards [critical and viewer voted] and ratings wouldnt have risen year after year. Im not saying it's the perfect show, it's not - theres better dramas around like Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones- but it's not Eastenders bad either or even close. There's always going to be a few vocal people saying the show's declined dramatically or using lines such as 'it's EastEnders for toffs etc' which is basically a veiled attack on the show and its audience, but those people are such a small minority of the audience who watch or have watched the show.

Having said all of the above though, do expect some kind of Downton abbey backlash either this year or in the next year or two. The press here in the uk love to big something up and praise it for a while but then to eventually knock it down when they smell a bit of weakness. It happens to nearly all programs/musicians/sportsman etc which/who are well publicised and it is just the nature of the beast. It will happen to Downton abbey eventually, maybe even this year due to the large influx of new characters it seems to be getting this season. Im sure the inevitable 'these new characters just arent as good as the old ones' criticisms will be brought up quite a few times in the next few months, as well as the good old 'storylines are being recycled/same old storylines' critiques. The media have been very positive about it on the whole over the last 3 years but that cant last forever and I suspect any noticeable dip in its ratings this season will be pounced upon by the newspapers as it'll make a good story. The BBC has been quite wise showing a new drama series against it, By Any Means will do low numbers in the overnight ratings [maybe consolidate to a reasonable 4-5m] - we all know that - but it might just be strong enough to knock down Downton abbey a few hundred thousand or so compared to last year when it faced sub 3million rating Andrew marr documentaries. In terms of profile, no one cares if Doc martin loses a million viewers from its last series because it barely gets any media coverage anyway, but if it happens to Downton, you wont hear the end of it in the media. And once you've got one newspaper saying 'Is Downton losing its sparkle' there's going to be lots of them reporting it and it will change the public image of the show to a more negative one. So watch this space.

By all means pretend that the press fluff pieces leading up to the shows debut were representative of the broad range of thoughts and concerns about the show. The Broadcast piece you mention for example is a fawning interview with Fellowes (and the producers) about the show but I'm sure it was entirely representative of the universal belief that Downton was going to be a super duper hit. Not that I want to rain on the parade but a few things you should consider here.

-Downton launched at a time when ITV were having a pretty poor run with new drama particularly returnable drama
-After The Prisoner bombed out of Britain's Got Talent it was unclear that the Cowell talent shows were a strong launch pad for new drama
-Per Media Guardian ITV's own publicly stated ambition was that the show would average 5-5.5 million across the run and garner strong critical response to build a potential second series
-The BBC ran George Gently opposite Downton Abbey's debut and started it half an hour earlier which raised questions that it would get a march on Downton with the drama audience
-That ITV was no longer a place audiences looked to for costume drama was a serious concern about the strength of Downton's launch
-That it was paired with The X Factor a show that doesn't seem to have much overlap with an upmarket costume drama was a serious concern about the strength of the show's launch
-The question was asked that with a BBC revival of Upstairs, Downstairs on the horizon would people really want a similar ITV drama.

And then even after the show had debuted strongly there were complaints that ITV had flooded it with adverts and that this would alienate a drama audience used to watching the BBC. That the adverts were poorly chosen also became a talking point about speculation for a week two drop. People in this very thread were concerned that the breakdown pointed toward a sizeable week two drop. Concern was also expressed that it might not hold up against renewed BBC competition when George Gently finished its run.

The press absolutely fawned all over Downton before it launched. That was a side effect of who was writing it and who was in it but it was by no means a universal lock that Downton would be a hit nor that it would sustain after its first episode. Anyone that pretends it was is looking back with a case of major revisionist history.

However, I'm not going to sit and debate the quality of Downton Abbey with you. You can disagree with the description period (posh) EastEnders all you want but that's what the show is. Its a soap. That you see that description as some kind of veiled attack on the show and/or its audience says more about you than it does me. I'll also add that any time you have to invoke ratings to try and defend quality you're on very shaky ground indeed. Additionally winning viewer voted awards is meaningless. On the awards front in general let me ask you a question – how many BAFTA's was Downton Abbey nominated for at the beginning of the year? Its still picking up nominations in America certainly but it isn't winning anything. It gets nominated because people think they ought to nominate it. The Emmy's is particularly bad for this where voters vote out of habit more than anything else.

Ratings should be out in a few minutes.

found the stats for 2012:

BBC iPlayer TV views: 1,773m http://www.vodprofessional.com/news/...nce-2009-2012/
ITV Player views: 458m http://ar2012.itvplc.com/directors-r...nce-indicators

Almost a 4:1 ratio...


K

Jenny Cummins ‏@jscummins 30s
ITV Ratings: @TheXFactor peaks with 9.7 million, averaging 8.8 million/40% share

X Factor averages 8.8m (40%), peaking with 9.7m. Includes +1.

The Miranda Meets Brucie show definitely dented it a bit. Would probably be about 8.3-8.4m without +1. It's still a decent figure. Slightly down on the final Saturday audition show last year though but that didn't have competition like it did last night.

That's fine for XF. Down a little bit week on week but by nothing major.

Xfactor down to 2012 levels. Bruce Forsyth done the job last night. Imagine how much more it will go down next week when it faces strictly proper.

Stop with your negative spin, it's getting tedious. Yes, it's probably not brilliant but it's not over yet.

It only faces Strictly for 5 minutes though. It will be down of course because its bootcamp which always rates lower but Strictly ought not to affect it (although an absolutely rotten Stepping Out lead-in might drag it down a bit like it did a few weeks back when it faced Strictly).

How much is it down compared to last week?

I dont understand why you seem to take so much delight in seeing ITV shows dented in ratings. I enjoy seeing high ratings for any show these days regardless of what channel they are on.

Bootcamp usually always rates lower, bar 2010 of course. If they promote the changes this year, they could go up rather than down.

It's not as strong a show as would have liked at the moment but that can be changed. Once we get into the live shows, I would hope it's given a better lead-in than something that gets sub-4m.

0.3m. Potentially even less than that as it got 9.06m to 2dp last week, so it may be closer to 0.2m down. Really nothing worth getting hung up over at all. I know the figure beginning with 8 instead of 9 makes a psychological difference but in reality it's nothing.

9.1m last week (inc +1) so down by the grand total of 300k.

It won't go up, it never does. 2010 was an exceptional year for the show that it will never repeat so there isn't much point in comparing it to that really.

And why is it not as strong as show as they would have liked? After last year what on earth were you expecting? They should be relieved the decline appears to have halted if anything.