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Old 04-11-2013, 06:45
Judy_Hendrixon
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Some Biblical scholars doubt that the John who supposedly wrote The Book of Revelation was not John the Apostle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of...ion#Authorship
Yes, you're right about the debate on the authorship of The Book of Revelation in the Bible; it is a debate which has gone on for decades, it's a thing scholars love to do. It is also how they promote their own ideas, sell books, and get published which is a critical thing/necessity in academia. For that matter almost every author of a New Testament book, especially the writings of the Apostle Paul, has come under question at one point or another all the way back to when they were being shared by the various churches in their early beginnings around 50 A.D. and continued up through their cannonization several centuries later at the Nicean Council 331A.D.

The important fact is it is regularly referenced in the TV show and often wrongly called "Revelations" which was my point of clarification. I only sited the the author and the book's placement in case someone wondered A. what i was talking about regarding the show, and B. where they could further read about it if they were curious.

My intent was not for a theological discusion, but rather to suggest that "Sleepy Hollow" is not a horror show as some are insistant on calling it. But rather if one looks to who are the writers of the show's script, it seems clear to me to think of it as science fiction i.e. "Star Trek" and or something similiar to a fantasy such as "The Twilight Zone." And your views on that are???

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Old 04-11-2013, 06:56
RebelScum
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Who is insisting on calling it a horror snow?
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:19
Thrombin
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My intent was not for a theological discusion, but rather to suggest that "Sleepy Hollow" is not a horror show as some are insistant on calling it. But rather if one looks to who are the writers of the show's script, it seems clear to me to think of it as science fiction i.e. "Star Trek" and or something similiar to a fantasy such as "The Twilight Zone." And your views on that are???

I'd say it was a Fantasy show with elements of horror (like Buffy).

Certainly not Sci-Fi. No self-respecting sci-fi show involves magic or the supernatural (unless it is explained through pseudo-science, of course, but that's not the case here).
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Old 04-11-2013, 19:13
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Just got round to watching last weeks episode - it was a good one...with Abbie & Jenny teaming up, hope she's out soon.

But the poor Barman...I could say Snookered, but it was a Pool Table.


"We are everywhere"
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:05
Judy_Hendrixon
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Who is insisting on calling it a horror snow?
In reading back several posts there are statements by others that it is not a horror show which which left me thinking they are either eluding to statements previous to theirs or someone "doth protest too much" which was why I was trying to be clear that I didn't think it was a horror show either. It's a good program and certainly does deserve the second season they've gotten.
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:29
RebelScum
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In reading back several posts there are statements by others that it is not a horror show which which left me thinking they are either eluding to statements previous to theirs or someone "doth protest too much" which was why I was trying to be clear that I didn't think it was a horror show either. It's a good program and certainly does deserve the second season they've gotten.
Prior to you raising the issue there was just one comment from someone who didn't think it was horror (post 67), the comment wasn't picked up, no one agreed or disagreed, so there wasn't any debate about the issue.
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:50
Judy_Hendrixon
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I'd say it was a Fantasy show with elements of horror (like Buffy).

Certainly not Sci-Fi. No self-respecting sci-fi show involves magic or the supernatural (unless it is explained through pseudo-science, of course, but that's not the case here).
So then you're saying that in the early 90's the 5 year long Hugo and Emmy-award winning show "Babylon 5" written and produced by J. Michael Sstraczynski was not sci-fi? They had characters who used advanced technology in magical ways and were cast in the role of magicians, which may reach your qualifier of pseudo-science. They were called Technomage's of which one of them, Gaylan, portrayed by British actor Peter Woodward was a supporting character in their 1 year spin off series, "Crusade". It gave "Star Trek" a fair level of competition. If you like "Sleepy Hollow" you may well like "Babylon 5".
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:10
Thrombin
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So then you're saying that in the early 90's the 5 year long Hugo and Emmy-award winning show "Babylon 5" written and produced by J. Michael Sstraczynski was not sci-fi? They had characters who used advanced technology in magical ways and were cast in the role of magicians, which may reach your qualifier of pseudo-science.
Of course, it does. It's a prime example of pseudo-science to describe something which appears to be magic but isn't.

Babylon 5 was one of my favourite programmes on TV at the time and its spin-off, Crusade, featured the technomages quite heavily. It is quintessential sci-fi.

As a famous Science Fiction author once wrote, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". I think the technomages may even have mentioned that phrase in the show.

The important distinction is whether the show portrays its fantastic events within a scientific framework or not.

Another example is the Doctor Who episode, the Daemons, where the Master summons up an ancient horned beast called Azal through the use of a black magic ceremony complete with pentagrams, arcane chanting and ritual sacrifice But the Doctor goes to great pains to explain that magic doesn't exist, that it all has a scientific explanation. The horned beast is an ancient and powerful alien being who arrived in a space ship millennia ago to guide mankind's progress and the arcane rituals were provided to mankind as a means to trigger communication.

Some people call Star Wars Fantasy because of the Force but it was all explained away using the pseudo-science of midi-chlorians.

Sleepy Hollow on the other hand, at least as far as it's been presented so far, is definitely Fantasy. It portrays magic as magic with no scientific basis behind it. There's no suggestion that there is any science involved here and, as the name suggests, Science Fiction is all about Science.
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Old 05-11-2013, 18:44
angiebroch
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What a pleasure it is to see James Frain appear as Rutledge in this excellent show. Even better that he plays one of the good guys - a real change for James, who's normally cast as a villain! Although he doesn't play a major part, his performance is brilliant. Adds a real touch of class.
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Old 05-11-2013, 18:58
anyonefortennis
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What a pleasure it is to see James Frain appear as Rutledge in this excellent show. Even better that he plays one of the good guys - a real change for James, who's normally cast as a villain! Although he doesn't play a major part, his performance is brilliant. Adds a real touch of class.
This is UK pace. He hasn't appeared here yet.
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Old 05-11-2013, 21:27
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Oops! He's in episode 6, The Sin Eater.
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Old 06-11-2013, 06:26
Judy_Hendrixon
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Of course, it does. It's a prime example of pseudo-science to describe something which appears to be magic but isn't.

Babylon 5 was one of my favourite programmes on TV at the time and its spin-off, Crusade, featured the technomages quite heavily. It is quintessential sci-fi.

As a famous Science Fiction author once wrote, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". I think the technomages may even have mentioned that phrase in the show.

The important distinction is whether the show portrays its fantastic events within a scientific framework or not.

Another example is the Doctor Who episode, the Daemons, where the Master summons up an ancient horned beast called Azal through the use of a black magic ceremony complete with pentagrams, arcane chanting and ritual sacrifice But the Doctor goes to great pains to explain that magic doesn't exist, that it all has a scientific explanation. The horned beast is an ancient and powerful alien being who arrived in a space ship millennia ago to guide mankind's progress and the arcane rituals were provided to mankind as a means to trigger communication.

Some people call Star Wars Fantasy because of the Force but it was all explained away using the pseudo-science of midi-chlorians.

Sleepy Hollow on the other hand, at least as far as it's been presented so far, is definitely Fantasy. It portrays magic as magic with no scientific basis behind it. There's no suggestion that there is any science involved here and, as the name suggests, Science Fiction is all about Science.
Thrombin, thank you so much for the clarifications that you gave, and I really do mean that! Must confess to not being up on these nuances, I guess at 70 years old if it looks like "Flash Gordon" i.e. from outer space, then its science fiction in my old school mind. However that said I am always willing to learn more, so teach on all of you.

I am very much enjoying "Sleepy Hollow" be it fantasy, sci fi or whatever. It is unique, fun, and surprising at times like last nights "The Sin Eater" was thought provoking in how it explained forgiveness, and the necessity for it. Crane's holding on to the past was (and these are my words/thoughts) like building a connecting bridge between he and the horseman, thus allowing him continuous access to Crane. Heck it was almost like having a GPS chip in him!

I absolutely loved Babylon 5, and was hooked from the start; held my breath between seasons 4 & 5 in particular to see if it would get picked up, and now own all of the DVD's of the series and the movies. It's fun seeing the various actors showing up now on different shows like "Delen & Sheridin's" recent apperances on NCIS. I keep looking for and waiting to see if the B-5 series will be brought back for reruns at some point as it would be fun to watch them play out again. Granted I could play the DVD's, and do from time to time, it just would be interesting to watch B-5 in that venue again, and to see if would attract a new generation of viewers, what would they think of it now.

Again thanks for your clarifcations and I look forward to reading yours and everyone else's views regarding "Sleepy Hollow". From what I've seen so far many on this forum are very knowledgeable about who has played other characters, what their talent brings to this show, and noticing how the other roles they have played may or may not be a part of how and what they do on this show. Looks like there will be much to talk about for quite a while to come.

One thing for sure that can be said regarding "Sleepy Hollow" and it is best paraphrased by what "Ambsasador G'Kar" said regarding "B-5" in its first season opeing show. He said that B-5 was a curious and unique place where the strange and unusual could easily happen and that "nothing was as it seemed to be!" So it is with "Sleepy Hollow" too!
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:13
Verence
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My intent was not for a theological discusion, but rather to suggest that "Sleepy Hollow" is not a horror show as some are insistant on calling it. But rather if one looks to who are the writers of the show's script, it seems clear to me to think of it as science fiction i.e. "Star Trek" and or something similiar to a fantasy such as "The Twilight Zone." And your views on that are???
I'd say there are elements of all three concepts

Horror = Headless Horseman
Sci-Fi = Time Travel
Fantasy/Twilight Zone = hiddens agendas/people not being who they say they are


Another of Washington Irving's stories Rip van Winkle had a similar mix of elements.

Horror = He meets a bunch of ghosts
Sci-Fi = He time travels in that he sleeps for 20 years
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:54
RebelScum
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I'd say there are elements of all three concepts

Horror = Headless Horseman
Sci-Fi = Time Travel
Fantasy/Twilight Zone = hiddens agendas/people not being who they say they are

Another of Washington Irving's stories Rip van Winkle had a similar mix of elements.

Horror = He meets a bunch of ghosts
Sci-Fi = He time travels in that he sleeps for 20 years
I wouldn't call either of these scenarios time travel in the sci fi sense. It's not like they travelled through time at a different speed than the rest of humanity. They just happened to be in a state of unconsciousness/hibernation, by supernatural means.
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Old 06-11-2013, 12:34
anyonefortennis
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Thrombin, thank you so much for the clarifications that you gave, and I really do mean that! Must confess to not being up on these nuances, I guess at 70 years old if it looks like "Flash Gordon" i.e. from outer space, then its science fiction in my old school mind. However that said I am always willing to learn more, so teach on all of you.

I am very much enjoying "Sleepy Hollow" be it fantasy, sci fi or whatever. It is unique, fun, and surprising at times like last nights "The Sin Eater" was thought provoking in how it explained forgiveness, and the necessity for it. Crane's holding on to the past was (and these are my words/thoughts) like building a connecting bridge between he and the horseman, thus allowing him continuous access to Crane. Heck it was almost like having a GPS chip in him!

I absolutely loved Babylon 5, and was hooked from the start; held my breath between seasons 4 & 5 in particular to see if it would get picked up, and now own all of the DVD's of the series and the movies. It's fun seeing the various actors showing up now on different shows like "Delen & Sheridin's" recent apperances on NCIS. I keep looking for and waiting to see if the B-5 series will be brought back for reruns at some point as it would be fun to watch them play out again. Granted I could play the DVD's, and do from time to time, it just would be interesting to watch B-5 in that venue again, and to see if would attract a new generation of viewers, what would they think of it now.

Again thanks for your clarifcations and I look forward to reading yours and everyone else's views regarding "Sleepy Hollow". From what I've seen so far many on this forum are very knowledgeable about who has played other characters, what their talent brings to this show, and noticing how the other roles they have played may or may not be a part of how and what they do on this show. Looks like there will be much to talk about for quite a while to come.

One thing for sure that can be said regarding "Sleepy Hollow" and it is best paraphrased by what "Ambsasador G'Kar" said regarding "B-5" in its first season opeing show. He said that B-5 was a curious and unique place where the strange and unusual could easily happen and that "nothing was as it seemed to be!" So it is with "Sleepy Hollow" too!
This is the UK pace thread. We are slightly behind the US episodes. So please don't post any spoilers for episodes like 'The Sin Eater' and future episodes which we haven't seen yet in the UK. Thanks.
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Old 06-11-2013, 13:26
MoreTears
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I wouldn't call either of these scenarios time travel in the sci fi sense. It's not like they travelled through time at a different speed than the rest of humanity. They just happened to be in a state of unconsciousness/hibernation, by supernatural means.
Exactly, and the "hibernation" was induced by magic -- so, fantasy.
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Old 06-11-2013, 13:58
Thrombin
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Thrombin, thank you so much for the clarifications that you gave, and I really do mean that! Must confess to not being up on these nuances, I guess at 70 years old if it looks like "Flash Gordon" i.e. from outer space, then its science fiction in my old school mind. However that said I am always willing to learn more, so teach on all of you.
You're very welcome, thanks

It is still possible for shows to combine Fantasy and Sci-Fi, of course. Smallville, for example, featured super-heroes with science-based explanations such as Flash and Superman along with magic-wielding types like Zatanna.

The Marvel universe also has its science-based heroes and the magic-wiedling Doctor Strange. So it's possible to combine the two but I'd say it's pretty rare.

Right now, I don't think there are any science fiction elements in Sleepy Hollow. Even if it featured proper time travel (unlike the hibernation type that was actually featured) the concept is only sci-fi if it has a scientific explanation for it. If people travel in time via a magic spell then it is still pure Fantasy.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:07
Judy_Hendrixon
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Once again, thanks everyone for the clarifications especially my opps on an unintended spoiler, truly apologies for that one! The way you broke it down RebelScum into the catagories was the most helpful. I tend to be a visual learner. I truly never meant to offend anyone when I refrenced the remarks about a horror part of the show. My error was to not check further back than a reference or two which really inferred that it was "not" a horror show. I tend to think of horror shows as something like "Friday the 13th" or "Chainsaw Murders" and yes swords cutting heads off of horsemen is horrible in the moment. This show certainly does encompass many nuances but I also see now where it really isn't science fiction either, but it sure is facinating isn't it! Thanks again.

Last edited by Judy_Hendrixon : 07-11-2013 at 07:15. Reason: Just to clarify
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:53
Judy_Hendrixon
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So someone please "splain" something to me so as a "colonist" with British ties, my dad was born there and I still have family in the area as well as my husband was stationed there for 3 years. Long way round to say I get it about the time difference.

I get "Sleepy Hollow" on Monday nights here in Texas at Central Time at 8:00 p.m. In Texas lingo, Ya'll are roughly 7-9 hours ahead of us time wise. So a little over 2 evennings ago (it is now (1:45 a.m. Thursday 11-6-13) I saw the eposode, "Sin Eater" on Sleepy Hollow. When does it appear there for you?? What's the, for lack of a better word, time lag for me not to accidently do a spoiler alert??

Thanks for any advice on this one, from one who learned early from my London born grandmother how to make a proper cup of tea! And certainly not in a microwave, or a "replicator" by speaking Earl Grey, hot please.
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Old 07-11-2013, 08:18
anyonefortennis
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So someone please "splain" something to me so as a "colonist" with British ties, my dad was born there and I still have family in the area as well as my husband was stationed there for 3 years. Long way round to say I get it about the time difference.

I get "Sleepy Hollow" on Monday nights here in Texas at Central Time at 8:00 p.m. In Texas lingo, Ya'll are roughly 7-9 hours ahead of us time wise. So a little over 2 evennings ago (it is now (1:45 a.m. Thursday 11-6-13) I saw the eposode, "Sin Eater" on Sleepy Hollow. When does it appear there for you?? What's the, for lack of a better word, time lag for me not to accidently do a spoiler alert??

Thanks for any advice on this one, from one who learned early from my London born grandmother how to make a proper cup of tea! And certainly not in a microwave, or a "replicator" by speaking Earl Grey, hot please.
'Sin Eater' is on next Wednesday here. The episode with James Frain. 'John Doe' was aired last night. I see Ken Olin directed 'Sin Eater'. Didn't realise he'd moved into directing.
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:45
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I see Ken Olin directed 'Sin Eater'. Didn't realise he'd moved into directing.
He actually moved about 20 years ago.

Whilst he did the odd single episode here and there of shows he was in, as many actors are allowed to do, he did quite a big stint of directing on Alias.
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Old 07-11-2013, 09:48
anyonefortennis
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He actually moved about 20 years ago.

Whilst he did the odd single episode here and there of shows he was in, as many actors are allowed to do, he did quite a big stint of directing on Alias.
I am not a geek so I wouldn't know these things.
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Old 07-11-2013, 10:00
Verence
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'Sin Eater' is on next Wednesday here. The episode with James Frain. 'John Doe' was aired last night. I see Ken Olin directed 'Sin Eater'. Didn't realise he'd moved into directing.
Sin Eater is the episode with James Frain, not John Doe
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Old 07-11-2013, 19:24
anyonefortennis
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Sin Eater is the episode with James Frain, not John Doe
I didn't say it was. I said the Sin Eater is the episode with James Frain.
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Old 07-11-2013, 19:25
Verence
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I didn't say it was. I said the Sin Eater is the episode with James Frain.
I mistook the fullstop after James Frain in your post for a comma
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