Are the older pros just as good as the younger ones?

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danishdancer

23-09-2013

Originally Posted by coppertop1:
“I agree whole heartedly with what you say.

With the right celeb he can be sublimely inspired, last year he was not except for the last dance with Fern when she finally showed to joy she had in the Xmas special. She was down down down last year and she is known to suffer from depression perhaps the show came at a bad time for her.

I think to say he could not do better with a different older celeb is wrong, apparently he was very funny and enjoyed himself with Nancy on tour.

I don't know who is the best teacher, it depends on the celeb, some would respond to patience some to a rocket up their bum.

Aliona is as mad as a box of fronts and does mad choreography but gets good results from her celebs, maybe we are going to get a sublime trifle from Tomy.

I admit to being worried about Karen all last year Nicky stuck his bum out , this year amongst Dave's other faults his bum is sticking right out, the worrying thing is so is Karens

I like Karen she is a lovely person and so is Kevin, but nice will not produce memorable I hope he can be inspired to pull her out of her niceness

Anton just does not have him to teach Latin and I am sorry for Fiona for that

I don't know enough about Aljaz, and Jeanette and Julien need a dimmer switch, I hope they calm down and stop being so loud

Anya other than her health and safety bra has not really registered and and Iveta dances exquisetly but appears to be quite cold to her celeb
Ola , James and Brendan often get their celebs further than they really should on their dance ability

Katya was inspired when working with Gavin and actually got a dancing wardrobe to move fairly well by the end
Flavian and Vincent produced some exquist dances and got poor dancers further than they should have gone

Natalie produced sublime dances with Scott and Ricky but had a comedy genius with Michael

Kristina came be sublime both with poor dancer John and those who have the ability to do well like Jason but her Ir of increasing desperation sent both of them mad ny the end
I think that is it , but I don't see that the older pros are disadvantaged , but we will see when they have all produced a few dances and can see where old and new shine”

Haha, James has had talented celebs since his second year! This year is the first in eight series that he has an obvious duffer, and even though they'll be out early, she will try her best. Georgina was a Rachel type - I didn't watch that series but he apparently called her fat, and stole her chocolate off her. She apparently was often 2 hours late to rehersals.

I do like James, and will happily admit that other than this year and his first, he's been gifted with talented celebs who all (with the public's support) could've won with no bitching that they were not worthy. It's a shame that he took such a long time to try to show the nice side of himself, to the point that many on here at least will never like him.

edy10

23-09-2013

Originally Posted by Becky245:
“Just wondering what people think... would you feel at more of a disadvantage if your partner was Brendan Cole or Anton rather than Artem or Pasha for example? Same with the girls?”

For me it depends on who I Like the most or feel like I can relate with the most

. For me it has nothing to do with age or who was longer on the show.
I would NOT want Anton as a pro ; I would feel at a disadvantage because his latin is awful and his personality grates me a bit.

I personally would want Artem as a pro; very good teacher : nice balance of strict and " nice ", easy on the eyes

, very good choreographer. I feel like our personalities would mesh well together

.

2nd choice Brendan but he will be a little too tall for me though lol.

TerryM22

23-09-2013

Originally Posted by edy10:
“For me it depends on who I Like the most or feel like I can relate with the most . For me it has nothing to do with age or who was longer on the show.
I would NOT want Anton as a pro ; I would feel at a disadvantage because his latin is awful and his personality grates me a bit.

I personally would want Artem as a pro; very good teacher : nice balance of strict and " nice ", easy on the eyes , very good choreographer. I feel like our personalities would mesh well together .

2nd choice Brendan but he will be a little too tall for me though lol.”

I would go for Artem or Anton.

wazzyboy

23-09-2013

The idea that we might get bored with long serving pros is one thing, but...

I am not going to fuel a done argument by naming anyone including the poster, but there has been some criticism of the partnership between one of the new pros and their partner on the grounds that, based on their training footage there performances are likely to be dull. Bearing in mind that this is training for the start of the show, and that the pro is new, I found that somewhat astounding. It's one thing to not think much of their training footage (I didn't agree anyway but the poster was entitled to their view) - quite another to predict that their entire time on the show (assuming they don't get eliminated immediately) will engender similar feelings. We cannot know now what other routines will be like. Besides, surely the pro has to work with the celeb and gradually develop them from their starting point which will inevitably affect the nature of the routine being taught, and I am would think those who claim dancing and dance teaching credentials should echo that view (I don't teach dance, but have taught other subjects, and the idea of working from the basis of initial assessment cuts across topics as an element of good practice).

marinamau

23-09-2013

I agree
My first choice would be Artem for similar reasons.
Second, Pasha, for similar reasons. And probably he is the right height.

edy10

23-09-2013

Originally Posted by Dilly 1:
“I think every single partner he had adored him. Edwina is always tweeting about how much she loves him and only a couple of weeks ago Louisa tweeted that she had spent the day with him and his family.”

He is a sweetheart

.
I will miss him on the show though

edy10

23-09-2013

Originally Posted by marinamau:
“I think I may have worded badly my description of Artem, he is the more creative but maybe not necessarily the most skilled, as you (plural) are right that skilled choreography has to help the celebs, and sometimes Artem's doesn't.

To me Pasha's choreo is very good, but I find it that it is similar to the rest of the pros and over relies in props that do not serve a creative purpose. I don't think he is more creative than Brendan or Vicent choreo wise, while Artem adds something different, something outside the box.

Artem and Fern did not work well, but did not work that badly either, (that I can remember, as I was fairly uninterested that series). There was a lack of chemistry, certainly, but it wasn't as bad as Brendan and Victoria, which made me uncomfortable. What I think pasha has above all other male pros is likeability, he seems the most patient and comforting (unlike Artem the terminator), is not threatening or bravado (James and Brendan) and the kind of man to take home to meet the family.

I am a creative person by profession, and to me in creating a choreo as a thing of beauty is more important than teacher/chemistry abilities, and in that respect I think Artem is the most creative thinking outside the box to create beautiful pieces, but I am well aware that it is a very subjective point. That is why I didn't say the best choreographer because that would depend on all parameters, not just the creative one.”

I find him a bit boring though

and not outgoing. Not that there is anything wrong with it but its something that wouldn't work well with me.

edy10

23-09-2013

Originally Posted by wazzyboy:
“The idea that we might get bored with long serving pros is one thing, but...

I am not going to fuel a done argument by naming anyone including the poster, but there has been some criticism of the partnership between one of the new pros and their partner on the grounds that, based on their training footage there performances are likely to be dull. Bearing in mind that this is training for the start of the show, and that the pro is new, I found that somewhat astounding. It's one thing to not think much of their training footage (I didn't agree anyway but the poster was entitled to their view) - quite another to predict that their entire time on the show (assuming they don't get eliminated immediately) will engender similar feelings. We cannot know now what other routines will be like. Besides, surely the pro has to work with the celeb and gradually develop them from their starting point which will inevitably affect the nature of the routine being taught, and I am would think those who claim dancing and dance teaching credentials should echo that view (I don't teach dance, but have taught other subjects, and the idea of working from the basis of initial assessment cuts across topics as an element of good practice).”

Ohhhhhhhhh I wonder who it is lol. Is it Kevin or Anya ? lol

wazzyboy

23-09-2013

Originally Posted by edy10:
“Ohhhhhhhhh I wonder who it is lol. Is it Kevin or Anya ? lol”

My point was that if I said which pro and or which poster it might drag up the argument. I didn't want to do that.

J.R

23-09-2013

I find it difficult to judge both Anton and Brendan as I've only been watching a couple of years and neither seem to be given a partner with any real chance of winning. This year though they both have partners with potential to do well so maybe they will feel more inspired to show what they can do - Anton in particular needs to grab this opportunity. I am sure Brendan will do well and hope Anton does his absolute best for Fiona. In general though as far as age is concerned as long as they have older celebrities they will need some older professionals to pair them with. I thought Johny Ball looked like he was dancing with his granddaughter!

Miriam_R

23-09-2013

In general I don't think the age makes too much difference. I think a Pro is as good as his/her dancer (choreography wise) often than not (with the exception of Anton in when it comes to Latin).

I have never really remembered a Pro being able to produce fantastic routines while they had someone that is at an average or low capability of dance. That is not to say a Pro hasn't been able to bring out good routines if "good" is determined by entertainment value and somehow hooking an audience in via whatever means that don't involve incorporating aset of well executed skills. But (generally) I don't remember many routines of tecnical quality being produced by a Pro when their celeb has not been of a standard in which to demonstrate a certain degree of skills required of the dance sufficently (let alone additionally be able to handle a compexity of present). Getting a poor/average dancer showing effort and producing some form of entertaining routine is not the same as a good/to very good dancing producing a routine (alongside their Pro) that is good because the skill is more accountable than the effort. At least to me they are the same. I can recognise effort, but effort doesn't make you good. Being talented makes you good, and so a Pro with no talent is going to proudce when it is not just their talent that is producing the goods on the floor.

To dance specific types of dances, as Ballroom and Latin ones are, you need the skill down first (abit like the skeleton of the dance) and then the emoton, attitude, style and tone are all applied on top of that layering of the entire body of work. That's why to me technical ability is so important for celebs to pick up, because otherwise dancing with no skill is just pretending to dance (which isn't the same thing as dancing). Of course dancing with skill but no emotional/entertainment element isn't great either, but I think it's easier to fake an emotion while being able to dance a certain skill than it is to fake being able to dance a certain skill while showing true emotion. That's why it's prob more common and easier for a Pro to choreography a truly good routine when the skill element (of the celeb) is already partly nailed down. It must be quite draining to try and fill nearly an entire routine with just personality/entertainment to cover up when a celeb can't dance, as opposed to fill a dance with majority of dance steps/movements and complexity of presentation and then sprinkle that with personality/entertainment and emotion. Even in character dances, you need more than just facial expressions to tell the story, and the expression of a dance has to be running below the neckline through the entire body to each finger and toe end, which is all manifested through the steps and movements. So it's not so much the Pro and age, but what tools that Pro has to work with. On the odd occasion they might be able to create more than their materials would have suggested, but more often than not, an average routine by a Pro is usually reflective of the limits of their partner. Of course if you take the celeb out of the equation, then an argument can be made for which Pro has the better repatoire of skills, or which is the most succesfull based on titles won. But even that argument wouldn't be down to age (as you should prob line them up for comparison in terms of competitions competed in, and whatever else gives evidence of their achieevments). Age would only matter if someone is a child progidy at something.

Monkseal

23-09-2013

Originally Posted by coppertop1:
“Monkseal and his spreadsheets can disprove that theory, I can't remember how exactly but if Austin had got through instead of Tom he probably would have won”

It's not really proof - I just think it was obvious from the results that Austin and Tom were both far more popular than Rachel and Lisa. The bottom 2 pattern shows that both of the men were regularly out-polling both of the women by the second half of the series. If Tom had been finagled out on the highest or second-highest vote via leaderboard shenanigans, then Austin would have won, no doubt. If both had stayed in, I think it could have gone either way (although I would give an edge to Tom).

Originally Posted by Jethryk:
“The only person who. Could have beaten Tom that year was John Sergeant (at least according to the leaked voting figures). I think Erin could see the writing in the wall and that she would not get genuine contenders anymore.”

I don't believe the leaked figures because a) they were in The People and b) the numbers look too high to me, but they were :

John : 1,700,000
Tom : 890,000
Austin : 700,000
Christine : 500,000
Jodie/Lisa/Rachel : 300,000 each
Cherie : 200,000

That's a 4% difference between Tom and Austin. Hardly insurmountable.

edy10

23-09-2013

Originally Posted by wazzyboy:
“My point was that if I said which pro and or which poster it might drag up the argument. I didn't want to do that. ”

Ah , okay

sofakat

23-09-2013

I'd much rather have someone like Artem because his training is so much wider than the average English ballroom dancer.

I prefer to dance with dancers who have actually studied and trained in ballet and jazz. They just dance better, have a lot more style and presence, and are more creative, more able to adapt to different dances and cultural styles in a much more authentic way.

They can actually dance salsa, argentine tango and samba so much better - and tend to use the right music too.

No competition really. This year it's Artem and Aljaz for me -but Artem would be my partner of choice

I would not like to dance with any of the others, although I do think Robin is a sweetie

and seems like such a nice buddy to have on a dance floor. Not keen on his dance style though.

marinamau

23-09-2013

Originally Posted by sofakat:
“I'd much rather have someone like Artem because his training is so much wider than the average English ballroom dancer.

I prefer to dance with dancers who have actually studied and trained in ballet and jazz. They just dance better, have a lot more style and presence, and are more creative, more able to adapt to different dances and cultural styles in a much more authentic way.

They can actually dance salsa, argentine tango and samba so much better - and tend to use the right music too.

No competition really. This year it's Artem and Aljaz for me -but Artem would be my partner of choice

I would not like to dance with any of the others, although I do think Robin is a sweetie and seems like such a nice buddy to have on a dance floor. Not keen on his dance style though.”

Actually Artem got critiqued in the forum (and deservedly so) for stating he had never danced the Argentine tango and had to learn it as Kara did. But it was his first year on the show.

sofakat

23-09-2013

Originally Posted by marinamau:
“Actually Artem got critiqued in the forum (and deservedly so) for stating he had never danced the Argentine tango and had to learn it as Kara did. But it was his first year on the show.”

None of them have ever learned argentine tango before. That is hardly news. It is not a ballroom dance. The difference is that he did learn some of the actual dance, as opposed to making it up as they others did - when they dispensed with the experts who had been brought in to advise them. Which was a tragedy as their ATs (with the exception of Vincent and Flavia of course) were abysmal and not even close to the real thing.

Artem got it, the others didn't. And yes, before you or anyone asks, I do dance argentine tango and I was a pro dancer. I rarely pass judgement on something I know nothing about. I will never, ever talk about cars or football

sofakat

24-09-2013

Originally Posted by J.R:
“I find it difficult to judge both Anton and Brendan as I've only been watching a couple of years and neither seem to be given a partner with any real chance of winning. This year though they both have partners with potential to do well so maybe they will feel more inspired to show what they can do - Anton in particular needs to grab this opportunity. I am sure Brendan will do well and hope Anton does his absolute best for Fiona. In general though as far as age is concerned as long as they have older celebrities they will need some older professionals to pair them with. I thought Johny Ball looked like he was dancing with his granddaughter!”

I think you're spot on. I am interested to see what Brendan can do this year. I felt quite sorry for him last year

Anton will have to pull his socks up and stop playing the fool. I think Fiona may be quite competitive

She went to Elmhurst and there's more to her than she is showing!

marinamau

24-09-2013

Originally Posted by sofakat:
“None of them have ever learned argentine tango before. That is hardly news. It is not a ballroom dance. The difference is that he did learn some of the actual dance, as opposed to making it up as they others did - when they dispensed with the experts who had been brought in to advise them. Which was a tragedy as their ATs (with the exception of Vincent and Flavia of course) were abysmal and not even close to the real thing.

Artem got it, the others didn't. And yes, before you or anyone asks, I do dance argentine tango and I was a pro dancer. I rarely pass judgement on something I know nothing about. I will never, ever talk about cars or football ”

I didn't know about that, but makes a lot of sense. My admiration for Artem grows even further, and I never thought it possible! Thanks sofakat!

What I was referring was the fact that he stated he hadn't learnt it on ITT, twitter and on the training video irc.he seemed dismissive and people on this forum criticised him for it not sure how much for saying it out loud or for the lack of previous training. In any case, I agree that it is hardly news and that it is stablished that none of the pro s really are experts (except flavia and Vicent ).

My favorite dance on strictly is the AT, but I am no pro dancer, just a dance aficionado (mostly flamenco though), and I think it is great to have a proper expert casting their opinions (especially since I happen to agree often!).

sofakat

24-09-2013

Originally Posted by marinamau:
“I didn't know about that, but makes a lot of sense. My admiration for Artem grows even further, and I never thought it possible! Thanks sofakat!

What I was referring was the fact that he stated he hadn't learnt it on ITT, twitter and on the training video irc.he seemed dismissive and people on this forum criticised him for it not sure how much for saying it out loud or for the lack of previous training. In any case, I agree that it is hardly news and that it is stablished that none of the pro s really are experts (except flavia and Vicent ).

My favorite dance on strictly is the AT, but I am no pro dancer, just a dance aficionado (mostly flamenco though), and I think it is great to have a proper expert casting their opinions (especially since I happen to agree often!).”

Ah, now I remember. Yes, he did come across as arrogant. It was probably him being defensive and typically Russian!

AT is addictive but very hard to learn. You should see the forums about it - very lively and often explosive!

Flamenco is truly beautiful. Studied it for 4 years. Will always love it

peeve

24-09-2013

As a saddo Artem fan, I honestly don't remember his ever criticising the AT, seeming dismissive about it or saying he didn't know it. I've even looked back at his ITT interviews and training video (yep, total saddo) and not found anything to support that. He tweets less than I do, but I don't remember any Twitter talk about it, either. I have the impression that he knew the AT pretty well, although he certainly had help from experts in putting together the routine (as do all the pros with the exception of Flavia and Vincent).

Are you perhaps thinking about his disdain for the Charleston? In his first 'new boy' interview, he said it was the dance he wasn't looking forward to, as he didn't know it or understand its appeal.

Alli-F

24-09-2013

Originally Posted by peeve:
“As a saddo Artem fan, I honestly don't remember his ever criticising the AT, seeming dismissive about it or saying he didn't know it. I've even looked back at his ITT interviews and training video (yep, total saddo) and not found anything to support that. He tweets less than I do, but I don't remember any Twitter talk about it, either. I have the impression that he knew the AT pretty well, although he certainly had help from experts in putting together the routine (as do all the pros with the exception of Flavia and Vincent).

Are you perhaps thinking about his disdain for the Charleston? In his first 'new boy' interview, he said it was the dance he wasn't looking forward to, as he didn't know it or understand its appeal.”

The utter and complete reason why I love Artem is his total refusal to go down the "sell my soul to the devil and chuck every comedy trick I can find on YouTube at it" route to a charleston.

Fern apart, who doesn't have the energy or technique for a charleston, so did a gentle Mary Poppins piss-take, he has done proper 20s feel charlestons, filled with character and style but no stupid grinning and hammy acting. I loved both Holly and Kara's charleston, with Kara's still being the best ever for me even when compared to Denise and her celebrity partner, James.

I hope he does the same with Natalie, or just swerves it altogether. He's either going to stay true to his beliefs, do a classy charleston and get slaughtered by the judges and poorly marked, or he's going to compromise and let me down.

So his best option might just be to avoid it, if he is going to do it, he needs to do it early and get it out of the way, whilst there are bad dancers left.

girlcrisis

24-09-2013

Originally Posted by Alli-F:
“The utter and complete reason why I love Artem is his total refusal to go down the "sell my soul to the devil and chuck every comedy trick I can find on YouTube at it" route to a charleston.

Fern apart, who doesn't have the energy or technique for a charleston, so did a gentle Mary Poppins piss-take, he has done proper 20s feel charlestons, filled with character and style but no stupid grinning and hammy acting. I loved both Holly and Kara's charleston, with Kara's still being the best ever for me even when compared to Denise and her celebrity partner, James.

I hope he does the same with Natalie, or just swerves it altogether. He's either going to stay true to his beliefs, do a classy charleston and get slaughtered by the judges and poorly marked, or he's going to compromise and let me down.

So his best option might just be to avoid it, if he is going to do it, he needs to do it early and get it out of the way, whilst there are bad dancers left.”

Absolutely, my favourite Strictly Charleston comes from Mr Anti-Charleston. Obviously he won't have choreographed the routine but I do think he was responsible for keeping the tone of Kara's Charleston cool and sexy rather than wacky and slapstick. Might just watch it now and stop before the judges start telling Kara to "give it a bit more welly"

marinamau

24-09-2013

Originally Posted by peeve:
“As a saddo Artem fan, I honestly don't remember his ever criticising the AT, seeming dismissive about it or saying he didn't know it. I've even looked back at his ITT interviews and training video (yep, total saddo) and not found anything to support that. He tweets less than I do, but I don't remember any Twitter talk about it, either. I have the impression that he knew the AT pretty well, although he certainly had help from experts in putting together the routine (as do all the pros with the exception of Flavia and Vincent).

Are you perhaps thinking about his disdain for the Charleston? In his first 'new boy' interview, he said it was the dance he wasn't looking forward to, as he didn't know it or understand its appeal.”

Maybe I am wrong then. Does anyone remember the poster on this forum that was an AT expert? Dave? (not sure at all) He was the one that I seem to remember started to criticised Artem's attitude regarding the AT, but its been a few years since so I may be wrong.

I remember reading Artem twitter saying something along the lines that learning a dance from scratch in a week wasn't easy when he was learning the AT.

In any case, I am not trying to attack Artem! He is my favourite (by a looong shot) but I just was surprised to read that he could actually dance the AT by an expert. I was glad that we sorted all out now and, as I said before, I am even more in admiration of Artem.

I am a saddo Artem Fan too. Although I like to think I am more of a happy Artem Fan!

marinamau

24-09-2013

Originally Posted by sofakat:
“Ah, now I remember. Yes, he did come across as arrogant. It was probably him being defensive and typically Russian!

AT is addictive but very hard to learn. You should see the forums about it - very lively and often explosive!

Flamenco is truly beautiful. Studied it for 4 years. Will always love it ”

BIB, which I think is endearing but others may find off putting!

Yes, Flamenco is amazing. I like Pasos that reflect some element of flamenco. And I think Artem is the best at those in strictly, mainly because he is properly masculine.

Kmc1978

24-09-2013

Originally Posted by marinamau:
“Maybe I am wrong then. Does anyone remember the poster on this forum that was an AT expert? Dave? (not sure at all) He was the one that I seem to remember started to criticised Artem's attitude regarding the AT, but its been a few years since so I may be wrong.

I remember reading Artem twitter saying something along the lines that learning a dance from scratch in a week wasn't easy when he was learning the AT.

In any case, I am not trying to attack Artem! He is my favourite (by a looong shot) but I just was surprised to read that he could actually dance the AT by an expert. I was glad that we sorted all out now and, as I said before, I am even more in admiration of Artem.

I am a saddo Artem Fan too. Although I like to think I am more of a happy Artem Fan!”

DavidJames, an AT teacher used to criticise James & Brendan for not learning the AT, especially as both had been on the show for so long & knew that they would have to do it.

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