I was just watching the War Games for the first time in years and it occurred to me, do we think that was an actual regeneration? The Time Lords sentenced the Doctor to a face change but at no time did either they or the Doctor treat it as though he were losing any life expectancy and he never actually died either. He seemed most worried about being allowed to choose what he would look like rather than the change itself.

Of course the 3rd Doctor is still a new incarnation but it's possible he doesn't actually count against the limit of regenerations. There may be more life in the old dog yet

I also noticed that they shot the War Chief but, as a Time Lord, he wouldn't have stayed dead and he had a TARDIS (sorry SIDRAT) to escape in. I wonder if we'll ever see him again

I used to think that to, that it might not have been a regeneration. But having not seen the story for some years I really need to re watch.

Did they even mention the word regeneration in be episode?. I recall the Doctor saying upon being told he was to be exiled to Earth something about him being known and things could be difficult for him if he's recognised. And after that the Time Lords said about part of his punishment was that he would change his appearance.

From what I recall possibly not a regeneration as such. But seeing as the changed appearance had a different character etc then others would argue it was a regeneration.

The writers hadn't invented the term "regeneration" yet, so the word wasn't used. (It wasn't used in The Tenth Planet or Power of the Daleks either.) But what happened to Troughton was the same thing that was later called regeneration. So, yeah, it's a regeneration, no matter what name they happen to give it.

As for the war chief, the SIDRATs had a limtied life expectancy. Plus the whole thing about the barrier separating them from the rest of the universe...

lets say no it wasnt a regeneration so we can get an extra doctor outta this lol

I think, at the time, the concept of regeneration hadn't really crystallized. I think the first one with Hartnell was portrayed as some kind of effect the TARDIS had on him to save him and the second one with Troughton was just a change in appearance to get past the problem of Troughton leaving. The word 'regeneration' hadn't been invented yet and, judging by the fact that we were all left to assume that the War Chief was permanently dead, I doubt that the idea of cheating death through regeneration was uppermost on the writers' minds either.

The idea of a regeneration limit certainly wasn't around then.

I think a case could be made either way for it being a real regeneration or not but it would certainly buy the writers some more time if they were worried about the impending limit.

Do we consider Romana I to Romana II as a real regeneration? It seemed like a voluntary decision to change appearance and she went through several test runs before deciding on a final form. It's hard to believe that each change reduced her life expectancy. That would have taken vanity to extremes

I think it might be argued that Time Lords can change form without using up the regeneration limit but if they regenerate as a result of dying then it's another matter.

First use of the word 'regeneration' to describe the change of Doctor was in Planet Of The Spiders.
Troughton referred to the procedure as one of renewal in Power Of The Daleks, and the Time Lords themselves only spoke of a change of appearance when they had Troughton's Doctor on trial.
Since the Pertwee / Baker regeneration each change of Doctor has clearly been called regeneration and the clear implication is that this is what happened at the Hartnell / Troughton and Troughton / Pertwee changeovers.

To try to retcon any other significance to these is to add far more importance to these events than was ever assumed at the time.

Why do people going on about the regeneration limit? Are the BBC really going to cancel the show forever after thee thirteenth doctor? If the writers are worried about the regeneration limit they would probably remove the limit they wouldn't go on about the regeneration of the second doctor.

That's kind of my point. The events at the time didn't have the significance of part of his life expectancy being taken away. The only significance intended was the change of appearance.

IMO, it could just as easily be argued that trying to make the face change into a regeneration based on an idea introduced in Planet of the Spiders would be the retcon!

This is just idle speculation and something to toss around. I've never considered the regeneration limit an impediment to having more Doctors. It's just something they could incorporate to bring some excitement into the regeneration process at some point in the future. What counts against the limit just determines when, in the future, that would happen.

However, I do think it could be used, along with Romana's rather bizarre regeneration to indicate that there are actually two types of regeneration that a Time Lord can have. An involuntary one, caused by death or a voluntary one initiated purely for cosmetic reasons.

I actually think that's a kind of cool idea

The regeneration limit hadn't been laid down then either. That wasn't until The Deadly Assassin, was it not?

Yep, the Master was on his 13th and literally decaying. He's now a few regenerations past that, which makes it pretty clear it's not the most difficult thing for the writers to circumvent.

Why not call the Troughton/Pertwee change, a FORCED re-generation.

To answer your question, no it was never a regeneration in The War Games as nothing was actually shown on screen. The change between Troughton/Pertwee was a regeneration, although it is debatable when this actually took place.

There is a common theory that there was a Series 6b, which featured the 2nd Doctor working for the Time Lords before having his sentance carried out. The theory exists to put right continuity errors (mostly from The Two Doctors) and makes for interesting reading.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Season_6B

That's pretty cool. Thanks for that

Perhaps Time Lords can control their regenerations, trying out various appearances before picking the one they like. The Doctor and the Master missed that lesson at Time Lord School because they'd been sent to the head for fighting in class, so they can't do it, but everyone else can (or could).

"If The DOCTOR can be YOUNG and STRONG, then so can I!"

Ehhh, I don't think The Master missed that class, no.

Maybe the Doctor just likes a random element in his life (or death)
Maybe he's just a chronic gambler

Whilst it can be argued or debated that there is an established regeneration limit etc. It can be equally argued or debated that by accepting the established regeneration limit that in doing so you could or should accept that Time Lords can renew there life-cycle as established and mentioned in the Five Doctors when the Master was offered a complete new life cycle in return for saving the Doctor.

The Master was in a body that had never regenerated though so it could be argued that was the only reason he could be offered a new set of regenerations.


The same would probably apply to when he actually got a set during the Time War. He was either non corporeal (after his body was destroyed in the Eye of Harmony) and exisiting in the Matrix so got given a brand new body (complete with 12 Regenerations) or his Eric Roberts body was repaired and that given a set of Regenerations.


So maybe you can get multiple sets of Regenerations but you have to be in a brand new body at the start of each cycle.

Or maybe Gallifreyans are biological beings and adding the regenerations is a technological process (like the pocket watch transformation in Family of Blood) that you are deemed worthy of when you graduate from Time Lord academy

Was it not a "botched regeneration" because he didn't have any left?

I though Ainley was the 13th incarnation of The Master, then we see him in The Deadly Assassin with him having, at some point since we last saw him, tried to regenerate a thirteenth time and ending up with his decayed form .... then some time between that and Keeper Of Traken his boggly old eyes dropped off revealing his more realistic ones but he's still the same Pratt/Beavers (13th and a half? ) Master. After which he steals Tremas' body to become the Ainley/Tipple Master who gets executed by the Daleks but later posseses Eric Roberts (that makes 4 classic series Masters without him actually having regenerated properly since we first saw him).
Jacobi is the first (presumably) of a new lifecycle who regenerates (the first time we really see him do this) into "Master No. Six" John Simm (aka Master 2.2)

I always think it makes more sense the other way round. Regeneration is biological, and energy-based, and thirteen is an estimate.

Humans don't have a "seventy years and you're out" rule - some of us will live a little shorter, others a little longer. Likewise, time lords can regenerate roughly thirteen times, but you can top up, overcharge - or if you're running low on regeneration energy but regenerate anyway, you might run out halfway through the process. Don't know how that might look, but grotesque and goggle eyed are always possibilities.

I'd think, during the time war, the time lords would be dispensing energy freely. They'd definitely have reserves - as far as time lord medicine goes it's the ultimate last resort - but immortal warriors are a fine thing to have.

Unless the scientists at Demon's Run meddled with Melody technologically - and it'd require tech identical to that the time lords used - I think it's more a biological process that depends on finite energy sources. Also makes sense with the occasional ability to breathe energy into other things - David Tennant took twenty (?) years off his life to escape a parallel universe.

I don't know - it's how I see it, anyway!

I've been reading up on regeneration on the Wiki and found a few relevant tidbits:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regeneration_(Doctor_Who)


So it's definitely a fixed figure.


So it looks like the regeneration between Troughton and Pertwee is definitely considered a proper regeneration (thus answering my OP).



Clearly it is possible for the Time Lords to bestow extra regenerations and we also know it's possible to transfer regenerations from one Time Lord to another (as River did to save the dying Doctor). So, however it works, I'm sure the Doctor would have no problem finding a way to extend the limit.

I always thought about this subject when it comes to this particularly regeneration. Usually The Doctor Regenerates as a result of an incarnation dying as we all know, but The Second Doctor wasn't actually dying.

So I've sometimes taken the view the Time Lords did in effect kill that Incarnation. (I know there's all that stuff about Series 6B but I don't really buy into that) in a roundabout sort of way.

There again, I always balance that view up with what happened with Romana who did seemingly did change Incarnation without dying and then it makes you wonder if Time Lords can actually choose to Regenerate before that Incarnation dies.

Sometimes also it can be very confusing!