Oh, dear.

As to groveling: I would code "give me one last chance, PLEASE" as a grovel. Also, "Marry me, Louisa. I can't bear to be without you." But the ending of S4 -- no. Just heartfelt remorse, which is different than groveling, to me, anyway.

The scene in the operating room -- not a grovel, either.

This is all too much work for Martin(Louisa). Martin is selfish (an only child,etc.) Martin is unhappy or discontented with his life as a GP. The Doc is overworked, too. I am curious, though. His work in London was more meaningful to him but was he happier? Was his disposition better or was he selfish with his time and miserly? Was he a loner - did he socialize? Was Martin always grumpy and boorish.

The very nature of his work (surgeon, head of vascular) and the pressures it bears is
understandable but beyond the obvious, was he happier? Did he have hopes for a fulfilling personal life? DId he want more from life??

Martin is older now and more rigid. Possibly, even uncompromising. He may feel that Louisa and the baby are just too much work. Its an intrusion into his life and appears to be more of a burden.

What is the cause of Martin's unhappiness? He is increasingly short-tempered and dreary. Is it the village. Is it his work? Is it the demands that Louisa and this baby bring to his life? I would guess that he is unhappy with the work/village. A wife and child didn't seem to make any difference.

Martin is a selfish man. His childhood is a factor, I know, I know...
Is he really just like the old man - the father? Just pondering...

Edited to add: Is he unwilling to change. Is it too much work? Is he too set in his ways?

Back again: Will he consider Ruth's advice? Just leave the poor girl alone.

Hey Ms. Sarah

L asks DM that very question point blank: "Is it me and JH? Is the house too small? Is it me?" Very brave of her to ask, to consider that -- and taking the bull by the horns. DM answers, after a brief think, "no - I don't think so" I think we have to take the writers at face value. The cause of DMs unhappiness ( and his hemaphobia, emotional constipation, and other socially adverse tics) lies elsewhere, not w/being married or being a father or living in the surgery w/ them. Are the writers going to show us? explain it to us? either via DM and L's therapy or other method of exposition? Or leave it as a gap for our minds to fill in....? We'll have to watch S7 to find out methinks.

I think you're right, Carol.

I actually think he was happier in London, whatever that means for Martin Ellingham. If you watch his interactions with Londoners (Edith, Robert, even Chris Parsons, a medical colleague), he is looser and seemingly more comfortable than he is with anyone else, including Louisa.

I think he had given up on wanting more from life, concluding that marriage and family were not for him, so Louisa was a thunderbolt, more or less.

The cause of his funk in S6 is pretty ambiguous. Some feel that it is very poorly explained. I think you have to guess at it, but Aunt Ruth's guess is as good as any -- he sabotages what he loves, because he doesn't think he deserves it.

Will he "let the poor girl go?" Is there a chance that "I don't want that either" in the last scene, meant that he was considering this? that he didn't think he had it in him to make changes?

Personally, I tend to think that those on FB who are advocating the theory that he may decide that he can't satisfy Louisa, or can't change enough, and does decide to let her go (thus occasioning a last minute change of heart by Louisa) may be on to something.

I think we are interpreting this word "grovel" much too literally and seriously. Of course Martin has "groveled". The first marriage proposal, the scene in the maternity Pub....the scene at the Castle.....all classic "grovels". I don't see the word as meaning getting down on your knees in a hair shirt with your nose in the dirt. It's the kind of thing you do when the hub forgets your birthday...or takes your car keys to work with him. It means, "Luv, I really did a bad thing...how can I fix it? I love you."

I'm not convinced that Martin wont get resentful of trying all these things with no result. I wouldn't be surprised if he finally issues an ultimatum. "I am difficult, but I am what I am, and I want to love and live with you and James. But I'm just me and have nothing left. If you don't want me, the way I am, the best I can do, I'll get out of your life. Of course he'll always be James Henry's Dad and that can be dealt with. That is the conversation that has to take place....and that is not a "grovel".

Exactly, Mofromco. And of course it wouldn't be a grovel. In fact, I wish he'd stand up for himself a bit more.

No groveling ever noted by DM.


grov·el
ˈɡrävəl,ˈɡrəvəl/
verb

lie or move abjectly on the ground with one's face downward.
"she was groveling on the floor in fear"
synonyms: prostrate oneself, lie, kneel, cringe
"George groveled at his feet, begging for mercy"

act in an obsequious manner in order to obtain someone's forgiveness or favor.
"everyone expected me to grovel with gratitude"
synonyms: be obsequious to, fawn on, kowtow to, bow and scrape to, toady to, truckle to, abase oneself to, humble oneself to; More

NP:
Personally, I tend to think that those on FB who are advocating the theory that he may decide that he can't satisfy Louisa, or can't change enough, and does decide to let her go (thus occasioning a last minute change of heart by Louisa) may be on to something.

I don't know the FB fan/crowd but they might have the inside spin?
A lifeless marriage can't be what anyone would want for themselves. I hope Louisa loves herself enough to hope for more.

Too much Doc-itis - its rather discouraging. This post and the "grovel" remarks...

Lie down, Louisa. It seems that is all that is required. Know your place, girl,

I am so bothered by all this DocMartin worship...

I'm afraid I really don't understand this "Doc-itis" term. Can you further elaborate on that thought. I'm not saying this conversation as being empathetic or supportive of either character....Doc or Louisa...in fact it has to happen but it's a lose-lose for both, not Doc Martin adulation.....just intrigued to understand your idea more.

You know, my view of this stuff -- marital relations -- is that most often, it's pretty transactional. That is, you can't blame one person more than the other, usually. If my comments come across that way, then I'm not very clear. It's their interactions that don't work -- and each contribute to it. What I'm interested in, is what works or doesn't work for both Louisa and Martin. And whether they can ever get their interactions in some kind of harmony. A corollary of that, is that a high-functioning person doesn't usually get with a low-functioning person. If they do, by accident, they get themselves out of it.. So, my further assumption is that their dysfunction is ROUGHLY equal.

We have a whole lot more information about Martin Ellingham than we do about Louisa Glasson Ellingham. So there's more to mine. Also, plainly, it's his vehicle. We're meant, I think, to sympathize with his struggles, as well as be horrified at his rudeness and ineptness in his relationships.

I think Louisa wasn't really fully fleshed in the first couple of series, and they have added complexity and edge to her character as the series ran on. Of course I support her -- I'm a woman, I've been a mother with small children and working at a demanding job, my husband still makes me crazy sometimes, it took years to get to a place of easy equilibrium, as is probably true for all of us. She pushes all my feminist buttons.

I actually think it's rather silly to pick "favorites" in this duo. I think they deserve each other, both positively and negatively. Sometimes Louisa is not brilliant, in fact, rather foolish in the way she deals with Martin. Sometimes, he's just a jerk. They wind each other up, and rational thought goes out the window.. That's it, as far as I'm concerned.

If they can get on a path where they manage their interactions less dysfunctionally, I think they could be reasonably happy together. We're meant to believe, although I grant you it doesn't always come across that way, that they really love and respect each other.

Here's the thing about wanting Martin to stand up for himself, perhaps badly phrased.
I want him to be able to articulate, calmly and clearly, both to himself and to Louisa, what he needs from her. If what he needs from her at the end of the day, is a decision one way or the other, then I want him to say that. And I want the same in reverse for Louisa.

DM is the one with the pathology in the show, IMHO. And not my opinion or what I want to believe but what I see /hear from watching it. Haven't read or talked to anyone who has been able to show otherwise.

____________________________________________________

quote:
Here's the thing about wanting Martin to stand up for himself, perhaps badly phrased.
I want him to be able to articulate, calmly and clearly, both to himself and to Louisa, what he needs from her. If what he needs from her at the end of the day, is a decision one way or the other, then I want him to say that. And I want the same in reverse for Louisa.>>>

But then - we wouldn't have our show at all. It would indeed just be a medical mystery show. Yawn, IMHO.

From what I've seen of filmed scenes and rumors, Martin is totally blowing off the advice of the marriage counselor....easy to understand because it's a 25 year old telling them to go on a picnic. It is similar to the experience my ex husband and I had with counseling. "Dave, you look directly at Melinda and tell her what you need from her. Dave: Melinda, I need to be left alone each day for an hour when I get home from work. I don't want to care for the kids or interact with the family for at least an hour. My work is very stressful. Alright Melinda, you look straight into Dave's eyes and tell him what you think about his request and how you can help him with it. Melinda: I spend all day, every day with a 1 year old and a 3 year old and I have never heard such a selfish crock of shit in my life." We never went back. That's why I'm so disappointed that their counselor is such a young woman. Martin needs someone to grab him by his danglers and give him the what for. But, it's their storyline and DM does not appear to be doing very well. Well, we'll see.

But my bet is that we won't have a show at all, in fact, after S7. Or if we do, it will be a medical mystery show with another kind of twist. Your "yawn" reaction is exactly why I don't think they will go on. So, let's say they end up on some kind of equable plateau, where they're reasonably happy. Major motor of show -- gone. They might try to go on, but I hope they don't. Either they kill Louisa off and start over (horrors!) or they have a story arc that isn't nearly as compelling and viewership drops off. Probably would at the first scenario anyway!

Let me just say this about Louisa (half tongue in cheek) -- you don't think it's a sign of some kind of dysfunction that she can't get herself out of the magnetic attraction that Martin Ellingham apparently has for her, even though she's really going to have to reduce her expectations and put up with a lot of dysfunction from him, over time? He doesn't confide in her, he's anti-social and she's social, he's rude and often high-handed with her, doesn't respect her career or her desire to work, etc., etc. So, arguably, the Love Fairy would probably tell her, just walk away, while you still can. It's continually frustrating to be with him, and yet, she really can't leave, even though she tries. To me, somehow, they're hooked on each other, and their needs and neuroses mesh.

Needed a carb fix. Sorry, I was testy. (Get out of my head, Louisa).

This is how it will go (my best guess)!

Louisa: I don't want you to do anything, Martin, just be there in the marriage with me.
"The rest, we'll learn...."

Martin: Really? Good. Can I have the kitchen on Tuesday's and Thursday?

Louisa: Really? I like Tuesday's and Thursday. Martin...MARTEN - you're not listening....

Baby cries. Buddy yelps.

Scene ends.

Dunno - just having fun.

Returning (later) to read the posts above. Yes, its true, I need my DocM fix for the week.

If we can't give up our DM fixation - how can Luisa ? : )

I can easily see good scripts w/ them okay w/ marriage and each other. There's plenty of material in a marriage not in crisis. Besides, there is still the mystery of the Doc's hemaphobia to suss out.

But it isn't about us, the superfans. We'd watch anything, probably (altho I might draw the line at another season of misery and angst). I'm thinking about the remaining, what, 7.5 mllion viewers who are captivated by the relationship, etc., and I have to believe that their viewership will dwindle without it. To the point where it might not get renewed. I hope they don't go down that road -- I'd hate to see it end that way.

They risk a lot by going on, I think -- I guess that's why Martin stresses that a S8 would have to really have fresh ideas (and I swear he said, fresh cast, tho I can't find the article). I think they'd want to go on, but have to weigh it carefully.

NP:
You know, my view of this stuff -- marital relations -- is that most often, it's pretty
transactional. That is, you can't blame one person more than the other, usually. If my comments come across that way, then I'm not very clear. It's their interactions that don't work -- and each contribute to it. What I'm interested in, is what works or doesn't work for both Louisa and Martin. And whether they can ever get their interactions in some kind of harmony. A corollary of that, is that a high-functioning person doesn't usually get with a low-functioning person. If they do, by accident, they get themselves out of it.. So, my further assumption is that their dysfunction is ROUGHLY equal.

Well, this is a tv show. Its entertaining, I guess. What they have in common is really what should/could bind them. They were both very responsible in their personal/professional lives. They seemed to navigate life and function well. Emotionally, not so much but in their daily living, they were independent and capable individuals. Contrast that to the village folk, heck, they were thriving!

Yes, it is his ship. He's DaMan. We love our men and most especially, the needy ones

NP:
Here's the thing about wanting Martin to stand up for himself, perhaps badly phrased.
I want him to be able to articulate, calmly and clearly, both to himself and to Louisa, what he needs from her. If what he needs from her at the end of the day, is a decision one way or the other, then I want him to say that. And I want the same in reverse for Louisa.

Yes, a good place to start. I also agree that the love and respect is there.They seem comfortable in their respective roles in the marriage. Is it more, he's uppercrust and she's not. He's stiff upper-lip sort and she's not. She's salt of the earth. He's Martin! Eh - Louisa and Martin both have some rough edges. He is more aware of who he is and his faults. She is not. There is the rub. She needs him as much as he needs her. I think?? (Good call, NP, your response to Carol and how they mesh)

They're hooked - we're hooked. Its all good, I guess.

The medical term aside...a tendency...uh...a preoccupation with the Doc. There, I said it. Moving on...

Here it is in plain speak (which is my pay grade) - there seems to be a lot of overcompensating for the guy in this relationship. Its pretty straightforward - we're women. We nurture. Generally, we love men. Men that are long-suffering and in need? We're hooked and we want to help them. We want someone to love them. LOL - having a little fun, sorry.

Your remarks (grovel) didn't trigger my reaction, actually. Thanks, Mofromco. Interesting read on the counseling sessions. Thanks.

I really didn't say that...but you get the picture. LOL Good night.

Well, I do believe his emotional outbursts to LG while she was giving birth could be considered "groveling"; he was humbling himself, admitting he erred, admitting his love for her and asking to be taken back, and he was on his knees!

I absolutely do not agree at all that because DM was an only child he was selfish. He seemed far from that in all the hints we've had of his life then. We saw him with a butterfly in a jar, happy playing by himself, a sweet lad. He then wanted to show it to his father, who yelled at him for interrupting, startling him, deeply hurting his feelings. He wasn't spoiled by his father being an only child! He was abused by him.

He wasn't spoiled by his mother, either. He was sent to a boarding school on his own, cried to be taken home which was ignored by both parents. He wasn't catered to; he wasn't spoiled; he didn't get whatever he wanted and expect others to do as he wished. He was ignored and neglected, and as we heard, suffered deep emotional damage as a result.

Being an only child by definition does not automatically come with being spoiled and selfish. He was treated well by Aunt Joan, but not spoiled by her, just given natural aunt love. Then his parents prevented him from going to her; again, no spoiling there, either but tormenting their son with the loss of the only love he felt from a relative.

Isn't this a better idea of DM--unloved, abused, neglected, tormented by the two people who were supposed to love, support, nurture, and care for him in his life? When he finally then DOES attempt to love someone, Edith Montgomery, she leaves him easily for a career move. So, DM finally banishes his deep desire for love, an aching need to love and be loved, in his medical career, and flourishes in that environment until his emotions creep out at his patient's family hanging onto her before her surgery. Then his carefully constructed emotional dungeon cracks apart, and his emotions play havoc with him.

DM may be selfish at times; but he is also 100% available to the villagers as a physician, day and night. In S3, after LG agreed to marry him, we saw him striving truly and honestly to be kind and think of LG as his fiancee and have her feel equally part of the relationship. In S4 he wanted to be a huge part of her pregnancy, but she refused to let him (who was selfish then--LG!).

DM in S5 has to clean up after LG being a total slob in their shared bathroom (the magically appearing en suite one!), because apparently she cannot pick up after herself. His beloved aunt dies, he reunites with Aunt Ruth (and what a hug they shared!), and welcomes her into his life.

DM doesn't go out of his way to be nice, but that is more because as he stated in the S5 finale, he loathes PW, loathes in the inhabitants, loathes their contagiosity of their illnesses; they drive him crazy. And we have seen many odd patients! But regarding emotions, instead of being selfish, it can be said that he is more completely clueless and completely uncaring of what he says and does than actually selfish. When he leaves LG alone with her new obnoxious neighbors, who crash their finally achieved date, who is more selfish--DM for leaving people he could not care about, or LG for not having the wherewithal to ask them to leave so they can have their date?

When someone really needs DM's help, and is not a total idiot, DM is 100% there for them, whether it is a teen who has not developed breasts, or a head master walking into the sea, or a cat lady with broken glasses, or a child with a torn spleen.

DM has a LOT of problematic personality traits, of course, but I do not believe we can just blithely say he's selfish because he was an only child and thus spoiled, and use that as an accurate foundation of who DM is, how he developed and why he is as he is.

DM is really awful in a relationship. One does wonder how they can write him out of the hole they've put him in. Will I be the only one rolling my eyes in disgust if they try to solve the problems in some S7 finale?

The problem is the writing from S5 on is SO inconsistent. I have to believe that from ending of S5 to beginning of S6 they were getting along great, because S6 E1 was so terrific, they were sexually attracted to each other, and DM was really communicating. Then as NewPark says, what the hell happened that DM got his homophobia back literally out of the blue? I'm in that category of people who feel the return of his blood problem was very poorly done as they portrayed it, coming out during a gentle interview with a patient, after an overall fun and bonding honeymoon, and after they had been living together for months in what we have to believe was positive way. So, it's hard to fathom. I'm not convinced that going from living together with a child as engaged couple to marriage was that traumatic a move to unsettle DM.

I just feel at some point, fans have the right to demand some sense to an on-going plot, and some real, solid, actual, meaningful, explanatory reasons for what the writers are writing.

I'm looking forward to S7 being more fun and answering questions in a way that characters can grow and move on, and not lie stagnant in pools of dark and ancient emotional pasts. Yes, DM carries with him a boatload of horrific childhood experiences, but at some point, I just pray he can grow up and into the husband and father life has gifted him with becoming.