I have just read on the Doctor Who TV app a statement made by Moffat regarding regeneration limit, and said 'There has been a miscalculation of how many regenerations he has actually been through.

"I think you should go back to your DVDs and count correctly this time"

"Theres something you've all missed"


Does anybody have any clue what he could be referring to, what have we missed??

Maybe Moffat is retroactively fixing / retconing the horrible resolution to the cliffhanger in the stolen earth / journey's end and counting the faux-regeneration as using one up.

There are a million options. Maybe Troughton to Pertwee wasn't a regeneration. Maybe Eccleston didn't directly follow McGann. Maybe there were seven between C.Baker and McCoy, the Rani striking just when the Doctor was in the middle of a dress-up party.

Since this is Moffat there's not enough information to get to the actual answer — he'll just make it up on the day the script is due.

Lets count then

1) 1st to 2nd
2) 2nd to 3rd
3) 3rd to 4th
4) 4th to 5th
5) 5th to 6th
6) 6th to 7th
7) 7th to 8th
8) 8th to 9th
9) 9th to 10th
10) Stolen Earth incomplete Regeneration
11) 10th to 11th
12) 11th to 12th (Xmas 2013)

The Hurt Doctor's regeneration will become part of that list once confirmed in the 50th.

So Capaldi's 12 is the last Doctor (so either an episode will go into this in detail or more likely a offhand comment by 12 to River about her regeneration energy)

** Just thought of one more! 11 burned off another Regeneration when he healed Rivers broken hand in 'The Angels Take Manhattan', So does that mean he's past the limit already?**
Last edited by Palmerwho : 13-10-2013 at 23:09

Let's kill Hitler maybe? River's hand me down regens

It could be that there's been 11 incarnations of the Doctor but he's only regenerated 10 times, since as far as I'm aware (my knowledge of classic Who is limited so sorry if I'm wrong) he hadn't regenerated before he was William Hartnell.
Or that he's referring to the David Tennant hand regeneration to create Dr. David Tenandahalf
But you know, with Moffat, he could mean anything!

With a little more time considering how Moffat thinks, since the universe was created afresh in The Big Bang I vote that Smith is the new first Doctor.

My guess is he means that the Troughton to Pertwee one was not really a regeneration. I know this was debated and there was scepticism but it is the only possible way that you could actually reduce the number of regenerations. All the other options would increase them.

I have to say the liberal use of 'regeneration energy' has been one of the most irritating things about new Who.

Yes, that's the one that immediately sprang to my mind. But Patrick and Jon were so different personality-wise it doesn't work for me that the Timelords 'just' changed his appearance.

I mean, we all know that 'regeneration' was only termed when Jon became Tom so....hmmmm.

It's also specifically stated a few times in the Davison era that the Doctor had regenerated four times.

First to second - on screen
Second to third - off screen
Third to fourth - on screen
Fourth to fifth - on screen
Fifth to sixth - on screen
Sixth to seventh - on screen (sort of)
Seventh to eighth - on screen
Eighth to ninth - off screen
Ninth to tenth - on screen
Tenth to eleventh - on screen

Any additional doctors (or "non-Doctors") must therefore be pre-Hartnell, between Troughton and Pertwee and between McGann and Eccleston.

The only way to shorten this list is to discredit one or more regeneration, in which case that would be Troughton-Pertwee (the timelords just changed his appearance) or McGann to Eccleston (plastic surgery?).

We do know for definite that there have been 11 Doctors, as Clara saw them all. There are therefore no missing Doctors, although there could be additional "non-Doctors", of which Hurt is possibly one.

The following could lengthen the number of regenerations:
1. Additional regenerations from River
2. An additional "non-Doctor" between Troughton-Pertwee or McGann-Eccleston
3. During the time war he was given additional regenerations (as was The Master)
4. The 10a regeneration counts.
5. There's some obscure reference to something in an overlooked serial that no-one can remember, or can bear to watch again. Possibly Paradise Towers.

EDIT: There's also those faces in The Brain of Morbius.

He also used regeneration energy to heal River in the Angels Take Manhattan. Presumably this would reduce the number of regens available (or maybe a future Doctor would just have to be a bit shorter).

He might also be talking about those faces from The Brain Of Morbius

Agreed. I hate the casual use of this by Moffat. He has turned what should be an earth shattering event within the show into something far less compelling.

"Controversial" + "John Hurt" = re numbering the Doctors

Methinks.

My guess is that technically, Matt Smith is the last Doctor.
The hint is in The Name of the Doctor. The Doctor died while using the current TARDIS interior and the crack in the window was still on the Future TARDIS,
so he must die soon after The Name of the Doctor.

So I'm guessing The Doctor actually, properly dies in either the 50th or Christmas because he has run out of regenerations.
Both John Hurt's Doctor and The Tennant 2 Metacrisis Doctor count, so that brings the total of bodies to 13.

So the Doctor dies on Trenzalore as said, Then the events of The Name of the Doctor happen. Sometime after that, someone or something enters the TARDIS tomb on Trenzalore, and somehow uses the Doctor's Timestream to give him a new life cycle and he comes back to life as Peter Capaldi, the first Doctor in a new life cycle.

Regeneration was treated fairly casually within the Classic series. Especially in the 80s. There were allusions and mentions of regeneration in every season, from the "You're out of regenerations!" from the Twin Dilemma and the "He's regenerated, fool!" from Revelation of the Daleks.

And lest we forget that one regeneration being done with a successor in his predecessor's hair "style".

I think regenerations in Nu Who are in no way downgraded. They're not mentioned trivially, and I can't see any way that Moffat is hurting that in any other way that RTD did with his 12-hour invincibility rule. (Which makes the cliffhanger to Part 1 of the Twin Dilemma look even worse by accident.)

However the concept of regeneration donation (Let's Kill Hitler) opens more doors for the series to continue, rather than shut. The only one I have a problem with is regeneration healing. (Angels Take Manhatten) though that could give a good explanation for Capaldi's much older appearance.

(Gosh using regeneration as a prefix makes it sound like some sort of RPG. )

I really don't like the missing Time War Doctor idea and I really hope the use of the Ecclespoon coat turns out to be a red herring of sorts.

It was all too convenient how the costume designer made some statement about him being a missing incarnation after it was a photograph of the costume that started the speculation that he was between 8 and 9...

Fan speculation repeated by a member of the team, quoted on one website and mentioned in a national newspaper that sourced their information from that website and were subsequently quoted on another website .... it basically amounted to ... "Yeah you're right guys, you can stop guessing now!". ... which pleased those who'd come out with the initial speculation enough for it to be accepted without question.

I hope it pans out like this ...
Hurt turns out to be the 12th Doctor, goes back into the Time War (maybe leaving the coat that 9 ends up with, unless he's dug it out of his old costumes) and fiddles about, does something that 11 remembers (and dislikes Hurt for) from when he was 10 (except for when the plot requires it to not be known which is where 11 will have amnesia for a bit), and ultimately redeems himself and becomes accepted as the 12th Doctor, gains a new life cycle of which Capaldi will be the first, then we get Smith AND Capaldi in the xmas special before Smith becomes Hurt and toddles off to one day end up at Trenzalore.
Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey


EDIT: controversy = metacrisis counted!

I took the fact the TARDIS was identical to the one The Doctor had just arrived in to signal that it was the same one. So when he entered his own timestream thingy he was effectively dead. The broken mirror was very deliberately emphasised in both TARDIS to signal that this was the end for him.

I did originally think he was dead until Clara entered his time-stream and saved him but that ignores the whole point that the effects of her doing that have been rippling through the universe before they even got there.

I reckon it's going to be a mix of the fact he used a full regeneration in The Stolen Earth, even if he only used some of the energy stuff he passed the rest into his hand so did use a full regeneration.

So throw in the fact John Hurt must have used one at some point, even if his name wasn't The Doctor he is still a cycle for the character making Smith or Hurt number 13. Though as Smith talked about him in the past tense Smith would be 13.

This would cause Clara to only see 11 until she randomly passed out after seeing the 12th version (Tennant looking the same for two of them).

I reckon the fact they left it with Smith inside his timeline must mean something with regards to either resetting or removing the cap.

Although that all might be rubbish that I just typed up as I was thinking it, if all else fails River gave him her remaining regenerations to bide him over for now.

where does the Rowan Atkinson Doctor enter the list

On the back

More interestingly, one could consider the Shalka Doctor to be the 9th Doctor in an alternate timeline that was created by the GI's meddling in his timestream and then undone by Clara, hence the Shalka Doctor having the same face because he has a bit of the GI in him ...tadaaa he's (sort of) canon again

I just hope Moffat doesn't screw things up...

This would be the most obscure thing to pull back on from the show's past, but it's an option to get out of the imposed limit that's there.

However, the Fifth Doctor tells the First he's number Five, the Eighth Doctor does declare the Seventh Doctor his "seventh life", and Ten tells Sarah Jane he's regenerated half-a-dozen times since he's last seen her.

So, until Ten, the Doctor has been exact about where his lives were act, since 2005 he's never confirmed what life he's on.

Also, is there anything in the Timelords resurrecting the Master from death with a new cycle of regenerations...?

Last time Moffat said there was something we'd all missed, it was the daytime shot of Amelia on her suitcase in The Eleventh Hour. So, no doubt this time it is once again something that's been talked about ad nauseam.

Nine - John Hurt
Ten - Christoper Eccleston
Eleven - David Tennant
Twelve - David Tennant
Thirteen - Matt Smith

Oh, this could get all very complicated...!

Is this that old rejuvenation vs regeneration thing?

ISTR a vid I watched that said that Hartnell to Troughton was initially a 'rejuvenation' by the TARDIS.

Same vid also said DWM (or similar) had also made the distinction.