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BBC THREE HD and CBBC HD placeholders now up


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Old 16-10-2013, 07:05
mossy2103
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Absolute disgrace that Channel 5's request to DMOL that 105 be reserved for C5HD in anticipation of its future launch has been ignored.

C5 weekly reach: 26m; share: 4.2%
BBC3 weekly reach: 16m; share 1.6%

BBC3 is no better off on 105 than it would be on 107, so nobody benefits. Ultimately it will just lead to confusion, or worse still, C5HD never coming to Freeview.

Completely illogical and backwards step.
No, it's entirely understandable given Channel 5's track record in NOT progressing its DTT HD options having twice seemingly expressed an interest but having twice pulled back.

All relevant organisations have been very accommodating, but each time Channel 5 seemed to have stalled, costing time and money - it almost begins to look like delaying or spoiling tactics. There's only so much leeway that can be given before things have to move on.

And things have indeed moved on. The LCN cannot be "soft reserved" indefinitely.
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Old 16-10-2013, 08:13
Mark C
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ok... why couldn't they put BBC Three HD on 107? Guess Channel 5 won't be launching medium term.
What's the problem ? I'll be remapping BBC 3 HD to Ch 7 when it launches, why would anybody with the ability to move it, keep it up at 105 ?
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Old 16-10-2013, 08:15
M60
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Which is exactly what they need to do to keep Sky paying their satellite carriages fees for them (or whatever the exact deal is). It's all just a bargaining ploy- every time the contract is up for renewal Freeview HD gets a mention and out comes the cheque book again...
As HD matures, and more services appear FTA, like we are seeing, I do wonder how isolated C5 will look as a PSB not having the output HD-wise of their main service unavailable and FTA across all platforms.

C5 have clearly held back on DTT due to the prohibitive costs of getting on-board BBC's PSB3 Mux (circa 20m/yr). Yes, they've also used this as a carrot to dangle in front of Sky's eyes which has p*ssed the BBC and Ofcom off, in wasted time, but now this cheap capacity is available surely they can't turn down an opportunity as if it's cash holding them back from DTT HD then it's just got a lot cheaper (obviously with reduced coverage as a compromise).

Sky didn't just give them capacity, they also paid for C5's HD playout too, as their Stephen St (Encompass) playout suite was SD only, this in itself would have been a massive outlay for C5. I believe on the grapevine, and someone in the know could fill us in better, that C5 have now upgraded Stephen St to be HD at source so in effect if they go on to DTT the costs will be reduced further. C5's problem is that if the Sky money was pulled tomorrow, as currently stands they'd not only be landed with EPG/Uplink costs, also Playout costs for the sole Red Bee HD output which isn't cheap.

Saying all this, nothing is excusable for C5's attitude towards dealing with Ofcom and the beeb in wasting time with previous applications. If they weren't interested then they should have just said so! Sky are also tightening up their purse strings now and I do wonder how much longer they'll be prepared to fund C5HD given more and more HD services going FTA as the unique selling point of C5HD as 'exclusive' won't have the same ring to it. Whilst other platforms (DTT and Freesat) have four HD channels that's fine but once they have up to fifteen people won't necessarily think "we'll keep our Sky HD box just for that 16th HD service".
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Old 16-10-2013, 09:07
figrin_dan
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The BBC's definition of a television channel agrees with mine. It's a matter of opinion, not fact.
and channel 4, channel 5, travel channel, jewellery etc etc

What word would the complainant prefer?
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Old 16-10-2013, 09:20
kasg
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What's the problem ? I'll be remapping BBC 3 HD to Ch 7 when it launches, why would anybody with the ability to move it, keep it up at 105 ?
I have 5 DTT receivers, none of which has the ability to do this, I suspect I am not alone.
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Old 16-10-2013, 09:21
kasg
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What word would the complainant prefer?
He is clearly talking about streams but calling them channels.
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Old 16-10-2013, 09:34
figrin_dan
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He is clearly talking about streams but calling them channels.
I think that's his point - BBC3 and CBBC share the same "stream" and are, hence, on the same "channel" (along with others) so what does he want the BBC to call them so that Joe Public understands?
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Old 16-10-2013, 09:56
Paddy C
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I have my channels in a custom order, and BBC 3 HD will be no different to the other HD channels on Freeview which I have in place of their SD counterparts and the SD channels deleted. Whatever EPG number it gets is irrelevant to me. If and when Channel 5 HD launches, it will go on 5.

Perhaps this recent action will spur Channel 5 into launching ASAP and perhaps getting a deal with the BBC/Digital UK to get 105 and move all the other channels down 1 number?
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Old 16-10-2013, 09:58
Mark C
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I have 5 DTT receivers, none of which has the ability to do this, I suspect I am not alone.
Well, most DVB-T2 sets I've played with can, Sony Samsung, Panasonic, and LG. My 2007 Sony SD model can too.

Of course, the bigger question is why can't a totally national service such as BBC 3 have their HD version simply appear on
the SD LCN on HD capable sets. The facility is available within the DVB spec, it's just Ofcom etc being awkward and dogmatic
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Old 16-10-2013, 10:03
Paddy C
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The placeholders have not yet appeared on Divis, perhaps they'll come on later today?
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Old 16-10-2013, 10:08
Mark C
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The placeholders have not yet appeared on Divis, perhaps they'll come on later today?
They must still be on the ferry from Stranraer
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Old 16-10-2013, 10:25
Peter Rhea
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The placeholders have not yet appeared on Divis, perhaps they'll come on later today?
The BBC placeholder has been there since yesterday evening at least. Wouldn't everyone get this at the same time anyway?

No sign of the new muxes yet.
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Old 16-10-2013, 10:31
Mark C
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The BBC placeholders have been there since yesterday evening at least. Wouldn't everyone get these at the same time anyway?
Depends on the receiver, and how often it takes a sniff for new services. The placeholders appeared on my 2011 Sony yesterday, but not until this morning on my lad's 2010 Sony.

Of course a manual retune of the T2 mux should bring them on at will, if anyone's that desperate.
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Old 16-10-2013, 10:51
Roland Mouse
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I have my channels in a custom order, and BBC 3 HD will be no different to the other HD channels on Freeview which I have in place of their SD counterparts and the SD channels deleted. Whatever EPG number it gets is irrelevant to me. If and when Channel 5 HD launches, it will go on 5.

Perhaps this recent action will spur Channel 5 into launching ASAP and perhaps getting a deal with the BBC/Digital UK to get 105 and move all the other channels down 1 number?
Same here. I run a HTPC and so have Freesat and Freeview channels wherever I want them. Like you I have replaced all SD channels with their HD version and with the help of an old Sky card and some sticky backed plastic, I already have Channel 5 HD in position "5".

At the moment I have BBC 3 in position "6" (As ITV2 comes later and grouped logically with ITV3 and ITV4) so when BBC 3 HD launches, it will just replace the SD version at position "6".

My current channel positions:

1:BBC One HD
2:BBC Two HD
3:ITV HD
4:Channel 4 HD
5:Channel 5 HD
6:BBC THREE (Soon to be replaced with BBC THREE HD)
7:BBC FOUR
8:ITV2
9:ITV3
10:ITV4
then all channel 4's other channels
then all channel 5's other channels
then the rest....
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Old 16-10-2013, 11:14
technologist
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Of course, the bigger question is why can't a totally national service such as BBC 3 have their HD version simply appear on
the SD LCN on HD capable sets. The facility is available within the DVB spec, it's just Ofcom etc being awkward and dogmatic
NO it is enshrined in Primary Legislation.....
and i am not sure the D book enables it .
But wait 5 years and there will be no need to have this function .. so do we really need a temporary fix if HD have sensible LCN range ..
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Old 16-10-2013, 11:35
Mark C
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NO it is enshrined in Primary Legislation.....
Yea, Yea,

So was the lack of large scale Sunday trading, then in the 90's the DIY sheds, and superstores just ignored the law, and opened on Sundays, and hey presto, the law changed

Just needs a bit of robust action

I'm told by reliable sources the ability is there for DVB-T, certainly exists for DVB-S, as Sky and Freesat have used the mapping function (Freesat for NHK HD, and the 24 Olympic Streams)
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Old 16-10-2013, 11:42
OwenSmith
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As expected no credible argument has been put forward by anyone for the BBC being allocated 105. It's all petty "they deserve what they get" type stuff.

I think your average Freeview HD viewer will find this to be a very strange carry on indeed. The platform is becoming a mismanaged mess.
I regard it as a mess that the channel numbers are not the same across all three digital platforms ie. Sky, Virgin and Freeview. Why should I have to know that the channel numbers are different for the same channel on a different platform? It's not my fault my parents have Freeview and my brother has Virgin.
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Old 16-10-2013, 11:47
Greebo
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Yea, Yea, So was the lack of large scale Sunday trading, then in 1990 the DIY sheds, and superstores just ignored the law, and opened on Sundays, and hey presto, the law changed Just needs a bit of robust action
Very brave, suggesting some poor techie somewhere should risk his/her neck by breaking the law

I'm told by reliable sources the ability is there for DVB-T, certainly exists for DVB-S, as Sky and Freesat have used the mapping function (Freesat for NHK HD, and the 24 Olympic Streams)
The HD swap on Sky is done via the BAT (Bouquet Allocation Table) part of the DVB standard. See p20 of http://corporate.sky.com/documents/p...g_listings_EPG - section 3.4 "HD Swap Bouquet". I don't know if BATs could be used on Freeview in the same way and would be understood by Freeview HD receivers. Anyone have any info on that?
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Old 16-10-2013, 11:49
OwenSmith
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Of course, the bigger question is why can't a totally national service such as BBC 3 have their HD version simply appear on
the SD LCN on HD capable sets. The facility is available within the DVB spec, it's just Ofcom etc being awkward and dogmatic
And which multiple SD channels do you want to lose to provide the bitrate to accomodate this? It would take around two to three off the top of my head.

EDIT: hang on, are you talking about an HD channel on the BBC SD mux (which is what I replied about), or the HD channel on the HD mux but at LCN 7? I may have misunderstood you.
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Old 16-10-2013, 12:00
figrin_dan
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The HD swap on Sky is done via the BAT (Bouquet Allocation Table) part of the DVB standard. See p20 of http://corporate.sky.com/documents/p...g_listings_EPG - section 3.4 "HD Swap Bouquet". I don't know if BATs could be used on Freeview in the same way and would be understood by Freeview HD receivers. Anyone have any info on that?
freeview uses LCNs (Logical Channel Numbers) which are stored in a very different way to the satellite channel numbers. If "some" freeview receivers understand BAT you can bet that MANY will not.
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Old 16-10-2013, 12:12
chrisy
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NO it is enshrined in Primary Legislation.....
and i am not sure the D book enables it .
I'm not sure about either of those things, because DUK were consulting on whether to enable this function, so it must work and be legal.

But wait 5 years and there will be no need to have this function ..
Yeah, if it all goes DVB-T2 there won't be any need for HD simulcasts and the LCN swaps will be irrelevant.
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Old 16-10-2013, 12:30
Bangers
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Yea, Yea,

So was the lack of large scale Sunday trading, then in the 90's the DIY sheds, and superstores just ignored the law, and opened on Sundays, and hey presto, the law changed
Not only is this off-topic, but also not even a correct statement. Local authorities had the power to allow Sunday trading of certain stores prior to the Sunday Trading Act in 1994.
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Old 16-10-2013, 12:36
Mark C
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Not only is this off-topic, but also not even a correct statement. Local authorities had the power to allow Sunday trading of certain stores prior to the Sunday Trading Act in 1994.
Indeed it is off topic, and I'm sure you're right, but very broadly
the point I'm making is 'laws' can get changed quickly by those with vested interests and commercial influence.
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Old 16-10-2013, 12:37
GPW
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Is there a need for CBBC HD?
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Old 16-10-2013, 12:37
mossy2103
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Of course, the bigger question is why can't a totally national service such as BBC 3 have their HD version simply appear on
the SD LCN on HD capable sets. The facility is available within the DVB spec, it's just Ofcom etc being awkward and dogmatic
The devices concerned might not have firmware that supports it (or supports it properly), even if it is in the spec and it is a required function.

It would also cause much confusion, with TV listings not being able to correctly flag the channel number, and people not being entirely sure of the channel number.
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