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COM7 mux, Al Jazeera HD - LCN 108


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Old 17-10-2013, 16:36
technologist
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I understand that there are problems but isn't this whole idea of COM7 and COM8 that many many people just won't be able to get ever, doing Freeview a dis-service and putting it back years as the poor cousin of everything else?
.
CERTAINLY NOT ...
It is to get the majority of STB/ TV DVB-T2/ AVC capable so atht when the 700MHz clearance comes
very few will need to swap/ replace their STB ot TV - and the BBC stops SD broadcasting .. which saves a chunk of money
It would help if Vince Cable would stop the Freeview tick leaving everything Freeview HD ..

It also gets a lot of people to view BBC Channels in HD on their other TV sets.

After all they are TEMPORARY muxes .... and if it hadn't been for the cunningness of the Publicly owned broadcasters we would not have them at all.

Will The Satellite platform be hindered in the next five years because the BBC one HD will not be regionalised ....???
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Old 17-10-2013, 16:37
Roland Mouse
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I tried a manual scan on channels 33 and 35 on Tuesday afternoon but nothing was found.
On Autoscan, my TV hovers around the Ch 30 mark for some time and being on the Dover transmitter, there should be nothing there. So I must be picking up a weak signal from France! (Not that it finds any channels)
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Old 17-10-2013, 16:38
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I understand that there are problems but isn't this whole idea of COM7 and COM8 that many many people just won't be able to get ever, doing Freeview a dis-service and putting it back years as the poor cousin of everything else?

Especially if important channels like BBC4 and BBC News go on it.

Which seems more attractive: Unrestricted Freesat or Freeview with some major channels missing?

So Freeview instead of improving is actually going backwards by years.
In what way is some viewers gaining HD versions of popular channels and everyone else losing nothing a backward step? I don't see what the problem is. No-one is losing BBC4 and BBC News, the SD version will continue to be available on the existing muxes. These are HD simulcasts.
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Old 17-10-2013, 16:42
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CERTAINLY NOT ...
It is to get the majority of STB/ TV DVB-T2/ AVC capable so atht when the 700MHz clearance comes very few will need to swap replace their STB. - and the BBC stops SD broadcasting .. which saves a chunk of money

It also gets a lot of people to view BBC Channels in HD on their other TV sets.

After all they are TEMPORARY muxes .... and if it hadn't been for the cunningness of eth the Publicly owned broadcasters we wodu not have them at all.

Will The Satellite platform be hindered in the next five years because the BBC one HD will not be regionalised ....???
I don't understand the logic, how will these muxes, only available to 70% of the population, and more difficult to receive for quite a few [1] carrying <cough> B-List channels going to drive the take up of DVB-T2, when there has been
a T2 mux carrying A List channels since DSO in every area, available on every Tx (and since 2010 in some selected areas) which doesn't seem to have set the world on fire ?

[1] Far lower ERP, and unlikely to make it through the existing bandpass filters in comunal aerial systems
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Old 17-10-2013, 16:42
Roland Mouse
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CERTAINLY NOT ...
It is to get the majority of STB/ TV DVB-T2/ AVC capable so atht when the 700MHz clearance comes
very few will need to swap/ replace their STB ot TV - and the BBC stops SD broadcasting .. which saves a chunk of money
It would help if Vince Cable would stop the Freeview tick leaving everything Freeview HD ..

It also gets a lot of people to view BBC Channels in HD on their other TV sets.

After all they are TEMPORARY muxes .... and if it hadn't been for the cunningness of the Publicly owned broadcasters we would not have them at all.

Will The Satellite platform be hindered in the next five years because the BBC one HD will not be regionalised ....???
Yes but now look at it as a cold hard customer sees it who doesn't even know what a MUX is. They will look at Freesat and see all the lovely Free HD channels that they just can't get on Freeview and make a choice. As for not getting their regional programme on BBC One HD, I don't see that as much of a problem.

(I'm not anti-Freeview in any way but trying to look at this from the bigger picture as lay people will see it)
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Old 17-10-2013, 16:43
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After all they are TEMPORARY muxes .... and if it hadn't been for the cunningness of the Publicly owned broadcasters we would not have them at all.
While I agree the public broadcasters used some cunning to start with to try to ensure they didn't lose the spectrum, in the end when Ofcom put out a proposal asking for uses no-one else put forward any ideas so the broadcasters won by default due to there being only one submission.
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Old 17-10-2013, 16:47
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As for not getting their regional programme on BBC One HD, I don't see that as much of a problem.
Like you I'm not bothered about BBC One HD being national, but my parents hate it and refuse to use it even when I try for films. They like watching Look North and regard it as a huge imposition that they have to change from channel 101 to 1 at the end of the news to get Look North. They also don't like the channel numbers being different.

HD will not happen for my parents until i) BBC One HD gets Look North from Emley Moor, and ii) the HD channel numbers are 1,2,3,4 etc.

All their gear is DVB-T2 and HD capable (I know because I told them what to buy and I installed it all and the aerial system).
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Old 17-10-2013, 16:48
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So Freeview instead of improving is actually going backwards by years.
How can adding some extra HD services in some areas possibly be interpreted as going backwards? Noone is losing anything. You could argue that everyone gains, as the BBC has to be platform neutral, and the COM7/8 coverage is deemed good enough that it enables BBC3/4 etc to launch in HD on cable and dsat - without COM7/8 they couldn't do that.
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Old 17-10-2013, 16:52
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[1] Far lower ERP, and unlikely to make it through the existing bandpass filters in comunal aerial systems
My Aunt's apartments eight year old communal aerial system will be fine since it has no filters. Just a DAB/FM/UHF combiner before it goes into the head end for combining with the quattro LNB satellite feed (which comes from an oversized dish). I wish my signal were as good.
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Old 17-10-2013, 16:53
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How can adding some extra HD services in some areas possibly be interpreted as going backwards? Noone is losing anything. You could argue that everyone gains, as the BBC has to be platform neutral, and the COM7/8 coverage is deemed good enough that it enables BBC3/4 etc to launch in HD on cable and dsat - without COM7/8 they couldn't do that.
It occurs to me that Roland Mouse may be a troll, which we're all feeding.
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Old 17-10-2013, 17:01
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My Aunt's apartments eight year old communal aerial system will be fine since it has no filters. Just a DAB/FM/UHF combiner before it goes into the head end for combining with the quattro LNB satellite feed (which comes from an oversized dish). I wish my signal were as good.
She's lucky. My mother-in-law has just moved into a brand new retirement block, I've looked on a spectrum analyser, no neighbouring gunk from CP, Oxford, or Rowridge to be seen, so I'm sure it's tightly filtered, so I bet when Hannington launches Muxes 7 and 8 there'll be nothing on her outlet. Not long to find out now
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Old 17-10-2013, 17:10
Roland Mouse
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How can adding some extra HD services in some areas possibly be interpreted as going backwards? Noone is losing anything. You could argue that everyone gains, as the BBC has to be platform neutral, and the COM7/8 coverage is deemed good enough that it enables BBC3/4 etc to launch in HD on cable and dsat - without COM7/8 they couldn't do that.
"And now on BBC Four HD in glorious full HD XXXXX. Only for people with satellite TV for cable viewers and some Freeview viewer who where bloody lucky. The rest of you: Go to hell!"

They are adding something for some people and of course the others won't like it one bit and many start looking for a platform that does supply them free of charge a full service.

After all, some of these who don't get the full service are licence fee payers!

No neutrality for people not in the rest place.
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Old 17-10-2013, 17:11
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She's lucky. My mother-in-law has just moved into a brand new retirement block, I've looked on a spectrum analyser, no neighbouring gunk from CP, Oxford, or Rowridge to be seen, so I'm sure it's tightly filtered, so I bet when Hannington launches Muxes 7 and 8 there'll be nothing on her outlet. Not long to find out now
The door into the room containing all this gear in my aunt's retirement apartments is never locked, so I know exactly what it is because I've seen it (and I took a photo just in case it ever is locked). And if there were a filter, provided I removed it at about 4am when none of them are watching TV I'd probably get away with it and no-one would ever notice.

Given that I can see Emley Moor about 6 miles away from these apartments, and Holme Moss about 3 miles in another direction, signal strength is high. The installers fitted an attenuator on the FM aerial feed (from a circular omni aerial ie. negative aerial gain) before the FM goes into the DAB/FM/UHF passive combiner, and there's still bags of FM on the outlets.

I'm surprised they didn't bother with filters since the Holmfirth repeater is less than a mile away. But the repeater is very directional and no signal comes to my Aunts, it's barely a blip on the channel scan and the box ignores it.
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Old 17-10-2013, 17:12
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It occurs to me that Roland Mouse may be a troll, which we're all feeding.
With over 7000 posts?

Roland Mouse is, however, demonstrating how people who are unable to receive the new multiplexes actually want them. Assuming that people within the service area of the new multiplexes feel the same, but are unable to receive them as they don't have DVB-T2 equipment, it will most likely encourage them to upgrade. That, after all, is the whole point of this exercise.
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Old 17-10-2013, 17:13
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"And now on BBC Four HD in glorious full HD XXXXX. Only for people with satellite TV for cable viewers and some Freeview viewer who where bloody lucky. The rest of you: Go to hell!"
The rest of you: continue watching BBC Four SD like you've been doing for the last several years. You have lost nothing.

These interim muxes are not the final situation for Freeview. There's possibly 700MHz clearance, and even without that at some stage more of the main muxes will change to DVB-T2.
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Old 17-10-2013, 17:15
Roland Mouse
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It occurs to me that Roland Mouse may be a troll, which we're all feeding.
OFFS!

Please stop with the troll branding of anyone who isn't sitting here agreeing with everyone else. It really is mind-dumblingly stupid. This is a discussion site to discuss Freeview (Good or bad) not just for 1000% Freeview defenders who will hear nothing bad said and call people trolls for daring to raise a debate about the bigger picture.

I am 100% platform neutral as I run a HTPC with BOTH FTA satellite and Freeview. I'm not even tied to a box or make of box. I don't therefore know how more neutral I can be.
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Old 17-10-2013, 17:18
OwenSmith
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OFFS!

Please stop with the troll branding of anyone who isn't sitting here agreeing with everyone else. It really is mind-dumblingly stupid. This is a discussion site to discuss Freeview (Good or bad) not just for 1000% Freeview defenders who will hear nothing bad said and call people trolls for daring to raise a debate about the bigger picture.

I am 100% platform neutral as I run a HTPC with BOTH FTA satellite and Freeview. I'm not even tied to a box or make of box. I don't therefore know how more neutral I can be.
OK you are not a troll, thankyou for clearing that up.
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Old 17-10-2013, 17:21
Roland Mouse
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With over 7000 posts?

Roland Mouse is, however, demonstrating how people who are unable to receive the new multiplexes actually want them. Assuming that people within the service area of the new multiplexes feel the same, but are unable to receive them as they don't have DVB-T2 equipment, it will most likely encourage them to upgrade. That, after all, is the whole point of this exercise.
Yes, but at least those people have the option of upgrading whereas I don't consider moving house to another part of the country just to be within range of a certain transmitter, to be a viable upgrade.

In fact the only option for others in my position would be to upgrade to Freesat. Hence why I posted that Freeview is doing themselves a great dis-service and setting themselves back years. (As well as losing customers forever to Freesat.)

All sounds perfectly logical and well presented from my end, so how it can be considered 'trolling' I don't know. - Seems the standard accusation branded by die hard fans who refuse to see it any other way.
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Old 17-10-2013, 17:25
Roland Mouse
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The rest of you: continue watching BBC Four SD like you've been doing for the last several years. You have lost nothing.

These interim muxes are not the final situation for Freeview. There's possibly 700MHz clearance, and even without that at some stage more of the main muxes will change to DVB-T2.
WOW! How to talk down to viewers. 'You pay us the same licence fee which you will be forced to do by law and you put up with SD whilst we freely supply HD to some others and stop complaining'

How is that neutral? The haves and the have nots but all paying the same money by law.
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Old 17-10-2013, 17:33
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How is that neutral? The haves and the have nots but all paying the same money by law.
This is a practical interim solution. The alternative is not to do it. So the choice is between (1) almost everyone benefits in some way, though not all equally, or (2) noone benefits.

You appear to think (2) is better. I don't.
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Old 17-10-2013, 17:46
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OFFS!

Please stop with the troll branding of anyone who isn't sitting here agreeing with everyone else. It really is mind-dumblingly stupid. This is a discussion site to discuss Freeview (Good or bad) not just for 1000% Freeview defenders who will hear nothing bad said and call people trolls for daring to raise a debate about the bigger picture.

I am 100% platform neutral as I run a HTPC with BOTH FTA satellite and Freeview. I'm not even tied to a box or make of box. I don't therefore know how more neutral I can be.
I think the platform neutral thing is about the BBC being on all platforms, not viewers having access to more than one.
I wish I had your set up but I dont have the money to build a custom PC like that!
If I did I would also get a programmer to create custom software that would literally be the only thing that ran on the PC.
Then I would embed it onto an embedded OS and then load it on a PC that could cope with all the media hardware and software.
The software would also be connectible to iplayer and the other players itv, 4OD and D5 and be able to record the video streams on to HDD like Sky boxes do!
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Old 17-10-2013, 17:59
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People who choose to live out in the sticks don't have many things city dwellers take for granted. A mains gas supply comes to mode, some don't have mains sewage, a very few don't have mains electricity. Most don't have cable TV either. The things they do have often cost more due to lack of competion and they have to further to get things. Why all the fuss over a few HD simulcasts?
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Old 17-10-2013, 18:01
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Yes, but at least those people have the option of upgrading whereas I don't consider moving house to another part of the country just to be within range of a certain transmitter, to be a viable upgrade.
It is about bringing the extra services, cheaply, to 70% of the population to persuade them to upgrade. Extending it further would start to become very expensive, with diminishing returns, as each additional transmitter would only give a relatively small increase in coverage.

The services are temporary, there certainly wouldn't be any point in moving.
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Old 17-10-2013, 18:05
OwenSmith
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People who choose to live out in the sticks don't have many things city dwellers take for granted. A mains gas supply comes to mode, some don't have mains sewage, a very few don't have mains electricity. Most don't have cable TV either. The things they do have often cost more due to lack of competion and they have to further to get things. Why all the fuss over a few HD simulcasts?
You can add slow or non existant broadband and lack of 3G coverage (and sometimes any mobile signal) to things people living in the sticks don't get. We are used to it, a few minorty HD channels aren't going to upset us we'd far rather have decent speed broadband and good mobile phone reception.
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Old 17-10-2013, 18:20
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Frankly, DTT cannot be everywhere. we (thanks to crappy 4G/5G taking our TV spectrum) have to ration what little space we have left.

I have yet to meet a single person who wants/cares about 4G.

I do want as many HD channels on my YouView box however.
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