Confession time, have any posters recently concluded that previous dance experience doesn't matter? Or taken the opposite journey?

I seem to remember Jason and Denise getting a rough ride here for their ringer status, and yet many (curse my memory) of their fiercest opponents are now of the opinion that prior training doesn't count. At all. And it is unfair to mention it. And even it has been said that Artem has a harder year than ever because he's going to have to come up with difficult choreography... Yep, I read that too. Poor Artem!

For the record, I came round in time to appreciate both Jason and Denise, partly because we came to know them better over the weeks, and partly for a bolshie streak that resists what too many say too loud, too often. That might happen again this year, though I'm not holding my breath.

Natalie is a blank slate at present since I haven't seen her show (haven't seen Corrie since my nan died). To my uneducated eyes, she seems the best of the three. Line her up against DVO and Jason and they would probably look like beginners.

Step into the confessional... OK, it's a cheap fairground kiosk but I got candles...

Has anyone had a road to Damascus moment? Is it the Artem factor? A character thing? A fabulous hair matter? A not-Kristina/James thing? Eh?

I definitely think Jason Denise and Natalie will have similar journeys.

A few good weeks, goes downhill a bit, then regains momentum toward the end, but are eliminated in the final.

I think Jason and Denise could do certain dances very well, but really struggled with others (particularly Jason). Perhaps their stage training worked against them?

On SYTYCD you often find that contemporary dancers (for example) can't do the Latin dances very well or that they struggle with hip-hop. Too much credence is being given to Natalie's training, even though people don't seem to know exactly what training she has had. It's unlikely that she'll win anyway, so I wish people would calm down.

I think Natalie is a much better dancer than the other two were. I'm looking forward to her performances.

I don't really enjoy watching celebs that have that much previous training. I do realise that most of the actors have had some dance training, but the ones you mentioned (and I imagine there are others) are professional dancers, or trained to be that. I don't get why they are on the show.

Nothing personal, and I get that some people enjoy watching them, but to me, it's weird. I would never give them a vote.

I think that Natalie is more likeable than both of them combined imo and that is saying a lot .

-DVO annoyed me and no matter how hard I tried to like her , I couldn't. Her being partnered with James didnt help imo. I like James but I don't think that their personalities meshed well together.

-I also tried to like Jason but he was just so annoying , a little delusional at times and he could hear himself talk all day :yawn: ...and so earnest.

Natalie admitted her dance background up-front and didnt make excuses for it; I remember Jason and DVO in particular defending it times and times again.

Also Natalie is paired up with a very popular and very likeable pro and also very good choreographer so I think that she may do better than them when it comes to public votes as the weeks go by.

You are very brave, Pet!

But in the end I think it simply boils down to likeability factor. So far Natalie hasn't shown any fake coyness, was forthright with her immense dance training, so based on this alone she appears to be more honest from the get go.

Artem is very popular with a handful of very vocally eloquent posters here, so I believe Nat's popularity would have quite a lot to do with that.

I liked DVO's dances and dancing, esp her jive. Don't like her apparent faux essex girl personna though, so didn't vote for her.

Not much comments on Jason, I found him very slightly creepy, that's all.

I cared when it was Jill because I didn't really like her and I didn't care when it was Zoe because I did like her and I did care when it was Emma because she was dull and huffy and I didn't care when it was Kelly because she was mad as a box of frogs and her lustful grasp of villainy appealed to me and I didn't care when it was Matt Di Angelo either because he was wew fit innit and I did care when it was Tom because dancing to Fred Astaire in your basement 50 times until you got it step-perfect was a mite sad and I didn't care when it was Austin because he was competitive wunnit and you'd expect a sportsman to take 6 months of lessons beforehand and I didn't care either when it was Cherie because at the age of 763 or however old it was she clearly wasn't going to last very long on the show and I didn't care when it was Series 7 because I didn't care about anything in series 7 because nobody did and I did care when it was Matt Baker because he was a PROFESSIONAL DANCER (in some end of the pier shitshow doing flickflacks in neon flares but it totes still counts cause he was ANNOYING) and I didn't care when it was Kara because she was a DANCE GODDESS and I didn't care when it was Dr Hammie because again, she was 17,865 years old and good on the old bird for giving it a go and I didn't care when it was Jason because that rubbish about him having dance lessons was clearly made up just because people didn't like him just like is currently being said about Susanna and Sophie and Abbey and whoever and I did care when it was Denise but only because "I only sat on a chair" was transparently one of the funniest things ever said on the show by anybody other than Nancy Dell'Olio.

Don't think I've missed anybody out.

I agree and especially with the BIB ;

Gosh, Monk, do you always have to be this clever?

*Hands out the 10 paddle*

I can't work out if you like them when you care or can't stand them.

Let me see... I thought Denise was very disingenuous about "sitting on a chair". Also, considering her ringer status, her Latin was stiff. Her Charleston, jive and tango were fab though. Jason - I never really rated him. I didn't think he was a ringer - rather someone with some experience dancing on stage. Jill, I was unaware how much training she had had.

To be honest, I don't entirely like lots and lots of experience - it's fun seeing someone unexpected like Austin turn out to be good. If they do have experience, front up about it, and be good. With Kara, I ended up not caring because she was delivering gorgeous dances choreographed beautifully. Kelly was shaping up pretty well too. I can see Natalie turning out some fab dances - and ultimately I want to see really good dances.

He cares when he doesn't like them and vice versa.

Denise - people gave her a hard time because her attempt to divert attention from her ringah status was idiotic.
To be honest, I reckon most people who didn't like her wouldn't have liked her anyway but she shot herself in the foot and gave her detractors the perfect excuse to detract without looking particularly personal. Silly woman.

Jason - people only cared about his possible ringah status early on when he looked better than the others. When it became clear that he wasn't actually that good and had the charisma of a box of shredded wheat, people stopped caring so much. Funny that.

Natalie - she's brilliant, hasn't tried to deny anything and isn't sending people into comas. So people still care but less than with DVO.

I've always wasted zero effort on being bothered about people's previous dancing background. As long as they have not performed professional Latin/Ballroom in serious competitions (in that Latin/Ballroom world) or won titles (in that L/B world) and not performed to the higest standarrd (in that specific world) then no worry whatsoever.

With Jason the previous dance talk did happen to some degree, but what I think was argubly as much talked about was people's annoyance/frustration about how (seemingly) over-seriously he was taking the show and how he looked like he was sucking the fun out of his experience (as well as sometimes the viewing pleasure, for some). People seemed to find it funny/annoying that, unlike some of the other celebs that could just laugh things off, he seemed to want to analyse everything (little or big) and I think while people appreciated his efforts to want to learn and be a good student to Kristina, they just wished he looked to enjoy it more. Obv it is personal perception that he seemed to be under his own pressure to get things as right as much as possible, but I suppose for all we knew, he could have been having a whale of a time inside his brain even when (for some of us) it looked like it was regularly in stressed overdrive.

I had no problem with Denise. I was aware she was an all round performer (singing, dancing, presenting, acting prob even juggling), and cared little about whether she'd have more experience than other celebs. I never read anywhere that she had competed in Latin/Ballroom championships, so just enjoyed her dances on the show (if liked them) as with other celebs.

I don't know Natalie either, apart from seeing her on soap/tv awards shows and watching those small snipets of her corried storyline from there. So in a way, I'm seeing without knowing her (career wise), as well. And so far, I like her. Clearly some on here don't for whatever dance/personality reasons (which of coure they're perfectly allowed to) but I personally think she seems nice and working hard as well as having fun too (seemingly). I'm just glad that she 's here, as there seem to be more average/medicore or bad celebs this year (with matching routines), whereas in previous years we've had a stronger battle (like Kara's year with the winning girl herself, Matt, Pamela and someone else that I can't quite remember...so maybe there were only 3 good people). I certainly don't think DVO would look like a begininger against Natalie, that compariosn is more relative to someone like Natalie and Rachel Reilly (where the gulf is obvious). Sure, DVO didn't do all her dances well, but in some of the ones that she danced absolutely beautifully she could def challenge Natalie (which you'd prob not be able to even try and say of other celebs), and so the gulf isn't big enough (for me) to put DVO that far apart from Natalie (but that's just my take). Natalie is prob better because I think she connects with a dance emotionally better, imo, but we still have yet to see how good she is overall (and I suspect she'll be wonderful, which I only see as good). There is one thing I don't like too much about her dancing though, and it's actually related to her face, with the occasional gurning dancing-face which doesn't suit her as mcuh as like it does some people. It makes me giggle, like when Brendan does his, hisc an be hilarious (esp when he's doing romantic routines like the rumba).

As for Damascus? Experienced no moments on that.

Edit-Scott Maslen was that 4th person I think.

I knew this was you Monkseal before I looked at the name. I just knew.

What about Michelle Williams and all her EVIL RINGAH STANDING BEHIND BEYONCE?

My one and only thought on Michelle Williams.

Like people said. Likeability. Both of the celeb and the pro. And of the dancer itself, no matter how professional or how many years of experience some dancers have, to me some appeal more than others when dancing.

In the second and last series of SYTYCD Uk, Luke (the finalist not the winner) was one of the most boring non charisma people I have ever seen on tv. Start the music and he starts dancing, and wow, could not take my eyes of him. Beautiful dancer , amazing charisma dancing. And that doesn't happen to many, in small measure I see that happening with Natalie.i care because I love watching her dance, and I am greedy, I want more!

I remember that get-up Brendan is wearing.
Still have trouble recalling Miss Shell

I don't care at all and never have about previous dance training

However after a few weeks of Jason I did care passionately about it because he was good dammit and that meant he got to stay. By the end I loathed him with passion every time he opened his mouth. That's the only reason I care about dance training so no , no epiphany for me.

<3<3<3

I watch the show for the dancing so I like them to have some celebs that are ready to go straight out of the box - we haven't had live telly for about 5 years and I hate most sport so I rarely know who any of them are anyway. I'm more interested in the pro dancers.

15 Johnny/Tony/Sid types would bore me to tears - there has to be someone that is watchable straight away to keep our brains and eyes busy while the beginners learn some skills.

So yes, I do like the 'ringers'.

However, I absolutely understand why those with the most prior dance experience (arguably the best dancers of their seasons) don't actually win - the 'journey' contestant is always going to be the most engaging, this is a 3 month series and an arc is more interesting than a flat line, whether that line be low (crap dancers) or high (already good dancers).

So far I find Natalie more likeable than DVO and Jason, DVO was disingenuous with the chairgate thing and Jason seemed to have swallowed an NLP selfhelp book. Of course, Natalie is also better than them at dancing...

Loving this thread and thank you everyone for your refreshing thoughts. Kind of shows a thing I'd guessed at which is that if you come clean, you come clean... Do you know what I mean? Having no hidden agendas makes things happy. I feel better any way.

So it looks like prior dance training isn't the key thing despite its prominence on the board (or not the consistently key thing) in dictating who we like. It's just one of the things we'll seize upon to explain why we like or dislike. Everything... ev-e-ry thing... is after the event because we've already responded in some magic intuitive child-way to who we like or don't like. Even Jason's voice which can be catastrophic isn't a decisive factor. People don't like him because 'he drones on and on' (he really does). But let Misha Collins enter next year, who can actually do Tibetan Throat SInging (yes, he can) and droning will be all the rage (Even if you don't know who Misha is yet, you would probably love him by the second or third minute; part of my trash tv pleasure.)

My confession is that anyone who dances with Pasha gets a fair crack of the whip. (Unless they bring back Widdy, Edwina or drag on Louise Mensch or any such.) When I first watched the launch show clips thingies, I didn't even listen to the end of Rachel's clip because she was wittering on in a ditsy way about footballer's arses or something. I thought, 'God, I hope Pasha doesn't get her'. Now I think she's improved in her Latin really quite significantly. And she is an absolute beginner, you know...

Expect the same kind of thing happens across the board...

I wonder if rampant partiality is why we all love (and need) the Michael Vaughan-type contestants? They're not going to win or challenge for the top so their triumphs are entirely free pleasures we can enjoy and those contestants are most likely to be generously thought 'the spirit of Strictly'. As Mark is this year.

Jason Donovan is proof positive that starring in stage musicals does not automatically mean you'll be a real dancer. Why people obsess about what someone's done before being on Strictly makes no sense to me.

I think Strictly is a constantly moving quicksand where opinions change all the time.

For example, Julien was almost universally hated week 1 for being like a 2 year old mainlining Haribos, whereas now the board is generally softening towards him because he's calmed it down, he's taking the dancing seriously, he's seen to be working hard and he's taken being in the bottom 2 with good grace.

Feelings toward Dave are generally very positive because again he is seen to be working hard, taking it seriously and wanting to learn, even though his dancing is hilariously bad. This opinion will change in a heartbeat if he doesn't try to improve, or starts resting on his comedy laurels, or just isn't funny anymore.

There are constant ebbs and flows to popularity which i guess I see a lot hanging out in the non appreciation thread as it's the first place a lot of people go to air their dissatisfaction.

Excellent, Pet! Particularly these last two points, I think. I absolutely adored the whole Kara and Artem thing, so have more than a soft spot for Artem; I confess it was amusing to see how Artem's fans scrambled to find positive things to say about Fern last year (and how relieved they are this year to be able to drop that pretence and genuinely enthuse over Natalie!).

It's always important to have a worry-free favourite further down the board, somebody you can get behind without investing a huge amount (either financially or emotionally) in their winning the thing. Last year it was Victoria Pendleton for me, and this year it might be Rachel, if she could just try taking it a bit more seriously. I mean, I don't want her to turn into Jason Donovan, but she's a bit of Lily Lettuce at the mo.