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A revolting ending to the Cameron storyline - Debbie getting away with killing Gennie


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Old 19-10-2013, 21:17
star89
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I
Which is why star89, given that you're supposedly Debbie's biggest defender, I find you're stance:


so puzzling.
I am talking about this as if it's real life that's probably why

Because whether or not Debbie intended it she has (helped) caused someone's death. She chose to get in that car and chase Gennie, she chose to continue to hound her when she realised herself that Gennie wasn't driving safely.
Not only that but she chose to keep quiet about Carl's death and she chose to let Chas continue to live with the guilt that she had done it.

I'm not saying she doesn't deserve forgiveness in the future or in time or forgiveness from some people (you cut out the part of my post where I said especially right now) but I would not blame Chas nor Brenda for example if they never forgive her.

There are something's that are unforgivable IMO.
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Old 19-10-2013, 21:23
Glendarroch
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I am talking about this as if it's real life that's probably why

Because whether or not Debbie intended it she has (helped) caused someone's death. She chose to get in that car and chase Gennie, she chose to continue to hound her when she realised herself that Gennie wasn't driving safely.
Not only that but she chose to keep quiet about Carl's death and she chose to let Chas continue to live with the guilt that she had done it.

I'm not saying she doesn't deserve forgiveness in the future or in time or forgiveness from some people (you cut out the part of my post where I said especially right now) but I do not blame Chas nor Brenda for example if they never forgive her.

There are something's that are unforgivable IMO.
I agree it will be very hard for Chas and Brenda to forgive. I hope they do, not for Debbie's sake, but because I'm told it's better for the victims if they can forgive those involved. It must take a huge amount of strength to do that though.But Brenda and Chas are very strong. As far as Debbie's concerned it will be good for her to believe that she's not forgiven for a long time, if ever.
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Old 19-10-2013, 21:37
Telly_Fan
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edna struggled to forgive Ashley - she'll have a hard job with VietCam
I know That's why I said it

she realised herself that Gennie wasn't driving safely.
I'm not convinced she did realise. Her "what is she doing?" comment seemed to be made more out of genuine puzzlement than using her loaf. I'm saying this without reviewing the footage (and I'm not going to as I'm watching the David Frost programmes), but that is how I remember it. She's not stupid though and certainly should have realised. Let's face it she didn't even need to witness any erratic driving to comprehend that chasing other cars at speed is highly dangerous.

Not only that but she chose to keep quiet about Carl's death and she chose to let Chas continue to live with the guilt that she had done it.
I guess they go hand in hand. Once she'd decided to forgive Cameron (see it can be done ) and get back with him, she couldn't really tell Chas anyway.

(you cut out the part of my post where I said especially right now)
I've made sure I keep it in this time

but I would not blame Chas nor Brenda for example if they never forgive her.

There are something's that are unforgivable IMO.
Yet the person you knew (and many others besides) manage it.
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Old 19-10-2013, 21:56
star89
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I'm not convinced she did realise. Her "what is she doing?" comment seemed to be made more out of genuine puzzlement than using her loaf. I'm saying this without reviewing the footage (and I'm not going to as I'm watching the David Frost programmes), but that is how I remember it. She's not stupid though and certainly should have realised. Let's face it she didn't even need to witness any erratic driving to comprehend that chasing other cars at speed is highly dangerous.
Yeah that was my point. She should have known better. But more of a character flaw on the writers part possibly because Debbie is a lot of things but stupid she isn't.

I guess they go hand in hand. Once she'd decided to forgive Carl (see it can be done ) and get back with him, she couldn't really tell Chas anyway.
I assume you mean Cameron but still IMO Debbie's love for her aunt should have surpassed her want to be with Cameron. Debbie acknowledged that herself in last nights episode. She was selfish to keep that information to herself.

Yet the person you knew (and many others besides) manage it.
Yes but there is a difference. The girl, in the situation I mentioned, was speeding slightly. We've all done it, myself included. It was as freak accident.
Chasing after a new driver, who was already panicked after learning Cameron was a murderer, was beyond stupid. Plus all her other crimes. Testifying against Chas to get her a life sentence, holding a gun to her head.

It's a much bigger ask to forgive Debbie for everything she has done. Especially for Chas.

BTW I have no idea how I've gotten myself in this discussion because I love Debbie
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Old 19-10-2013, 22:09
MissLola
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Yeah that was my point. She should have known better. But more of a character flaw on the writers part possibly because Debbie is a lot of things but stupid she isn't.
Once again I'll have to disagree. I think Debbie is a complete idiot - of the worst kind - The idiot who thinks they're smart. The situation is made worse by her very low EQ.
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Old 19-10-2013, 22:12
Telly_Fan
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I assume you mean Cameron but still IMO Debbie's love for her aunt should have surpassed her want to be with Cameron. Debbie acknowledged that herself in last nights episode. She was selfish to keep that information to herself.
Oops, yes I did mean Cameron! Her love for her aunt should have been stronger, but they hadn't exactly been getting on.

Plus all her other crimes. Testifying against Chas to get her a life sentence, holding a gun to her head.
I hope you're not a Defence Barrister!

BTW I have no idea how I've gotten myself in this discussion because I love Debbie
Lol! I think you need to change your "Services" description!
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Old 19-10-2013, 22:16
star89
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Lol! I think you need to change your "Services" description!


It's because I'm turning it into real life in my head and discussing it like that

Soap wise - I don't care what she's done, I bloody love Debbie
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Old 19-10-2013, 22:27
Telly_Fan
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The situation is made worse by her very low EQ.
That reminds me: what, please is the PDA thing of which you spoke/wrote/typed* a couple of times earlier?

*I'm referencing a discussion on the '100 Emmerdale deaths thread' there

I would also be interested to read your response to this bit (particularly the BIB):

Debbie got off a dangerous driving charge for helping to catch a serial killer. That's just the way it is. Would you be more inclined to forgive her do you think if she had spent time in prison?

...Well actually, thinking about it, she's already served time on remand on suspicion of a murder she hadn't committed. So in actual fact it's all balanced out! OK, not balanced but the police made their decision and Debbie's hardly going to volunteer to go to prison when she has children is she?! So it's done, no amount of being angry that she isn't in prison is going to change the way the police dealt with it.
Soap wise - I don't care what she's done, I bloody love Debbie
lol

Last edited by Telly_Fan : 19-10-2013 at 22:28. Reason: Here comes the BIB! :o
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Old 19-10-2013, 22:33
MissLola
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I would also be interested to read your response to this bit (particularly the BIB):
Of course not She can do jail time AND still not be forgiven.
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Old 19-10-2013, 22:34
Leon Bilson
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Debbie didn't ‘admit’ to killing Gennie; she was obviously emotional and speaking figuratively.

Cameron murdered Gennie, no-one else.
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Old 19-10-2013, 22:44
Telly_Fan
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Of course not She can do jail time AND still not be forgiven.
OK fair enough lol!

If anyone else was wondering about my other question, apparently its Public Displays of Affection. I only knew of it as a Personal Digital Assistant!
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Old 19-10-2013, 23:02
CollieWobbles
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Of course not She can do jail time AND still not be forgiven.
If Debbie had died, if she too had become a victim of Cameron this week after getting the others out, if she had sacrificed herself for Chas, would you have forgiven her then? If jail wouldn't make you forgive her would death? Or would it be a case of good riddance she deserved it? What about Chas in all this, she's not whiter than white, in fact she kick started the whole thing by having it off with Debbie's boyfriend, surely she also is partly to to blame? It was her act what caused Debbie to go almost crazy enough to shoot her, sell watered down booze etc to take her mind off what Cameron and Chas had done, yet because people don't like Debbie, she gets all the flack whilst Chas gets nothing. They both have blame, they both have done wrong, they both need to accept it and move on.

TF- PDA is Public Diplays of Affection.
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Old 19-10-2013, 23:14
Glendarroch
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Carl was forgiven by his brother for killing their father.
Cain has been forgiven by various people for his crimes.
Zak and Adam were forgiven by Cain for almost killing him.
Bob forgave Jimmy for leaving the showhome in a dangerous condition and thus killing his daughter. (and presumably forgave Cain if he knows about his role)

They inhabit a world where people rarely go to prison or have any other punishment than death which is entirely at the whim of a producer and writers. In terms of the characters inhabiting this small, confined world they HAVE to forgive, or at least learn to live with, the sins of others because they're all stuck together.

In reality soaps are not morality plays, and part of the the appeal of stories like this is to see the effect on the person and their loved ones. Debbie might or might not learn from all of this, but it will still have an effect on her. If she becomes embittered or hardened by it it will come back and bite her on the backside as it did Carl and to a lesser extent Cain because she'll make enemies and attract even more trouble. If, over a period of time, she changes her ways (and it will take time) she'll have to go through a painful process of self examination and she won't always like what she sees, but she could come out at the end a much better person. I'm not sure if she is able to do this, yet, so she'll probably go down the first route.
- but it will catch up with her sooner or later.
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Old 19-10-2013, 23:20
MissLola
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If Debbie had died, if she too had become a victim of Cameron this week after getting the others out, if she had sacrificed herself for Chas, would you have forgiven her then? If jail wouldn't make you forgive her would death? Or would it be a case of good riddance she deserved it? What about Chas in all this, she's not whiter than white, in fact she kick started the whole thing by having it off with Debbie's boyfriend, surely she also is partly to to blame? It was her act what caused Debbie to go almost crazy enough to shoot her, sell watered down booze etc to take her mind off what Cameron and Chas had done, yet because people don't like Debbie, she gets all the flack whilst Chas gets nothing. They both have blame, they both have done wrong, they both need to accept it and move on.

TF- PDA is Public Diplays of Affection.
Can she bring Gennie back? No. Debbie can't repair what she's done. No matter how many people she save, Gennie is still dead.

Cameron saved Cain after Zak attacked him - does it mean that because he saved one person - we can deduct one murder? So he only killed two persons - not three. I don't think it's as simple as mathematics.

ETA - Chas never committed any crime unlike Debbie.
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Old 19-10-2013, 23:25
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If Debbie had died, if she too had become a victim of Cameron this week after getting the others out, if she had sacrificed herself for Chas, would you have forgiven her then? If jail wouldn't make you forgive her would death? Or would it be a case of good riddance she deserved it? What about Chas in all this, she's not whiter than white, in fact she kick started the whole thing by having it off with Debbie's boyfriend, surely she also is partly to to blame? It was her act what caused Debbie to go almost crazy enough to shoot her, sell watered down booze etc to take her mind off what Cameron and Chas had done, yet because people don't like Debbie, she gets all the flack whilst Chas gets nothing. They both have blame, they both have done wrong, they both need to accept it and move on.

TF- PDA is Public Diplays of Affection.
Debbie kick started the whole thing by having an affair with a married man with children. She knew from the get go that he was not the most trustworthy guy around. It's her own fault she went crazy when he cheated on her too. Many people who are cheated on get over it without going on psycho rampages. His ex wife managed to. Chas got nothing? She was shunned by her family, abducted and held at gunpoint twice, her only sister was run off the road and murdered, she was imprisoned for a crime she didn't commit, led to believe she was a murderer and her baby niece has been taken abroad. What more could the poor woman go through?
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Old 19-10-2013, 23:40
Glendarroch
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Collie I see what you're getting at I think. You're not suggesting that Debbie should be forgiven by anyone for killing Gennie, simply based on the saving of another person, and perhaps losing her life.

What I think you're saying is that this would go someway towards her redemption in general. It would not make up for the loss of Gennie, but it would show that she had courage, was able to put others before her, and that she valued other people's lives.

There is nothing that she can do to bring Gennie back. I wouldn't expect Brenda, Chas or Nikhil to forgive her (although it's probably better for them if they do) but as viewers watching fictional characters surely we can bring ourselves to show some understanding and forgiveness? In real life I wouldn't expect the close family and friends to forgive in these circumstances, and I would hope that Debbie would serve a jail sentence, but I certainly wouldn't consider her irredeemable and unforgiveable as a person . Cameron lost all concern for others. Debbie's nowhere near that stage. She's showing signs of having matured over the past few days (as you would hope) and this could be the thin end of a wedge in a good way for her.
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Old 19-10-2013, 23:41
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If Debbie hadn't gone racing after her in her car with Cameron she'd still be alive.
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Old 19-10-2013, 23:43
star89
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Collie I see what you're getting at I think. You're not suggesting that Debbie should be forgiven by anyone for killing Gennie, simply based on the saving of another person, and perhaps losing her life.

What I think you're saying is that this would go someway towards her redemption in general. It would not make up for the loss of Gennie, but it would show that she had courage, was able to put others before her, and that she valued other people's lives.

There is nothing that she can do to bring Gennie back. I wouldn't expect Brenda, Chas or Nikhil to forgive her (although it's probably better for them if they do) but as viewers watching fictional characters surely we can bring ourselves to show some understanding and forgiveness? In real life I wouldn't expect the close family and friends to forgive in these circumstances, and I would hope that Debbie would serve a jail sentence, but I certainly wouldn't consider her irredeemable and unforgiveable as a person . Cameron lost all concern for others. Debbie's nowhere near that stage. She's showing signs of having matured over the past few days (as you would hope) and this could be the thin end of a wedge in a good way for her.
This exactly. This is what I've been trying and failing to say. Thank god for you Glenda

If Debbie hadn't gone racing after her in her car with Cameron she'd still be alive.
If Gennie hadn't of been a nosy cow and broken into Debbie's house then she'd still be alive.
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Old 19-10-2013, 23:44
Glendarroch
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If Debbie hadn't gone racing after her in her car with Cameron she'd still be alive.
Well, we don't know that. Cameron would've been keen to find a way to shut her up, if she didn't play along.
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Old 19-10-2013, 23:46
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Well, we don't know that. Cameron would've been keen to find a way to shut her up, if she didn't play along.
Maybe, but if she'd gone into the pub she would have been safe. She could have got backup and gone to the police station to report what she'd heard.

Of course she shouldn't have been such a nosey moo in the first place yes, but she didn't deserve to be killed for it.
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Old 19-10-2013, 23:53
Glendarroch
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This exactly. This is what I've been trying and failing to say. Thank god for you Glenda



If Gennie hadn't of been a nosy cow and broken into Debbie's house then she'd still be alive.
I've been telling my family to thank god for me for years. I don't why they laugh every time I say it. Weirdos.
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Old 20-10-2013, 00:10
Glendarroch
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Maybe, but if she'd gone into the pub she would have been safe. She could have got backup and gone to the police station to report what she'd heard.

Of course she shouldn't have been such a nosey moo in the first place yes, but she didn't deserve to be killed for it.
No of course she didn't deserve to be killed.

She could have gone to the pub or anywhere else in the village but she panicked and got into her car. Did she have a phone? She could have called the police from inside the car. She could have shouted for help. She could have simply driven to the vets, the pub or the factory and raised help there, if she didn't want to try pushing her way past Debbie and Cameron. They would still have chased her but she could have made a noise and attracted attention. She could have done any of these things and been safe but she didn't.

I'm not blaming her for that. She panicked and wanted to get away.

I suspect that even if they had caught up with her and managed to convince her to say nothing - 'I thought Carl was going to go after Chas, I was defending her, he might have gone after her and tried to rape her again or kill her, you'll break her heart, let me tell her about the affair' (I suspect that's the kind of spiel he would have come out with) - he would still have doubted her and killed her at some point. He didn't trust Alex to keep his secret after all. There was a point where he hesitated before killing Gennie, so he clearly did consider whether or not to do it, but he stil went ahead. Those aren't the actions of a man who would have let her live in the same village, knowing his secret.
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Old 20-10-2013, 00:50
CollieWobbles
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Debbie kick started the whole thing by having an affair with a married man with children. She knew from the get go that he was not the most trustworthy guy around. It's her own fault she went crazy when he cheated on her too. Many people who are cheated on get over it without going on psycho rampages. His ex wife managed to. Chas got nothing? She was shunned by her family, abducted and held at gunpoint twice, her only sister was run off the road and murdered, she was imprisoned for a crime she didn't commit, led to believe she was a murderer and her baby niece has been taken abroad. What more could the poor woman go through?
Debbie did not know he was a married man. When she found out he was, she dumped him and came back to the village wanting nothing more to do with him. He's the one who left his wife and kids and went after her.

Collie I see what you're getting at I think. You're not suggesting that Debbie should be forgiven by anyone for killing Gennie, simply based on the saving of another person, and perhaps losing her life.

What I think you're saying is that this would go someway towards her redemption in general. It would not make up for the loss of Gennie, but it would show that she had courage, was able to put others before her, and that she valued other people's lives.

There is nothing that she can do to bring Gennie back. I wouldn't expect Brenda, Chas or Nikhil to forgive her (although it's probably better for them if they do) but as viewers watching fictional characters surely we can bring ourselves to show some understanding and forgiveness? In real life I wouldn't expect the close family and friends to forgive in these circumstances, and I would hope that Debbie would serve a jail sentence, but I certainly wouldn't consider her irredeemable and unforgiveable as a person . Cameron lost all concern for others. Debbie's nowhere near that stage. She's showing signs of having matured over the past few days (as you would hope) and this could be the thin end of a wedge in a good way for her.
Yes! That is exactly what I'm trying to say, thanks Glenda! Of case saving one person doesn't wipe out the blame for accidentally killing another. My points is that it will go someway to redeeming her, people have been saying how she's a unlikeable, unsympathetic, selfish, cow who only thinks of herself, when after the actions of last week we've seen that is simply not true, that when it comes to it she would have given her life for Chas, that's about as selfless as you can get. No it doesn't excuse her reckless driving causing Gennie to crash, but it does show she's nothing as bad as people make her out to be.

If Debbie hadn't gone racing after her in her car with Cameron she'd still be alive.
No she wouldn't, Cameron would have been after her in a heartbeat, the second he got the chance he's have wiped her out because she was a threat to him. At least the way she did die it was all over pretty quick for her, Cameron might have murdered her quite brutally if he thought she'd tell on him saying she'd be alive if Debbie hadn't gone after her is not true, She herself even said he'd have only gone after her anyway.

This exactly. This is what I've been trying and failing to say. Thank god for you Glenda



If Gennie hadn't of been a nosy cow and broken into Debbie's house then she'd still be alive.

Yes, as Star says, thank god for you Glenda!

Actually you've got a point there Star, if Gennie hadn't been poking her nose into others affairs (again) she would have been ok. She was awfully nosy, always sticking her two penneth worth in things that had nothing to do with her. She obviously wasn't aware of the saying curiosity killed the cat, as she found out to her cost.
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Old 20-10-2013, 02:18
Telly_Fan
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I think you're being a bit harsh on Gennie now! She was trying to look out for her sister. Gennie told Chas what Cameron was up to but she didn't believe her, so she decided to prove it. I'm sure Chas would have thanked her for proving to her what Cameron was really like. Yes, she was interfering, but with good reason.

As for 'Cameron would have killed her at some point anyway', surely if she'd told someone as soon as possible (and she had evidence remember) then Cameron wouldn't have had the chance to kill her.

This doesn't prove that Gennie would still be alive now of course. She could have had some kind of car accident (or something else) at some later date. She might even have had Nikhil with her, then poor Molly would have been an orphan. It's speculation of course which is entirely pointless in a situation where peoples lives are dictated by writers, but it always annoys me when I read/hear "if x had/hadn't done y then z would still..." We can't know what events - perhaps even worse ones - might have befallen z in the time since the incident we are referring to.

Edited to add:

Besides maybe Gennie felt like she was making amends for her mistake last year. Chas persuaded her to keep her affair with Cameron a secret, but if she had told Debbie as she wanted to, there's a good chance that (were it not for the interference of the writers of course ) she and also Carl and Alex would still be alive (Further edit: All-be-it she wasn't aware quite how serious the consequences of the affair and her non-exposure of it had been until she heard that conversation.)

Damned if you do damned if you don't lol.
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Old 20-10-2013, 02:24
TotallyTellyMas
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Sorry but in my book, CAMERON killed Gennie, not Debbie.

All sorts can happen if you think "If this..." or "If that..." - In actual fact, Debbie's driving caused the accident but Cameron was going to kill Gennie anyway. Gennie woke up after the incident and would have been fine had she been taken to hospital but CAMERON took her life, not Debbie. It's so plain and clear yet people have made up scenarios of their own in their head.

Debbie's simply saying she killed Gennie because she feels apart of the accident but it was ultimately Cameron who killed Gennie and not her. Plus, Debs is a little overwhelmed at the minute what with recent events so is saying strange things... let's not forget, Cameron had a lot of mental control over her for a long part of her life.
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