What was the Great Intelligence' motive in The Snowmen and The Bells of Saint John? It's been bugging me because he doesn't seem to have a clear motive despite almost causing (directly or indirectly) the end of the universe in the finales of series 5, 6 and 7.
Great Intelligence Motive
The Great Intelligence on entering The Doctor's time stream:
"It will kill me. It will destroy you. I can rewrite your every living moment. I can turn every one of you victories into defeats. Poison every friendship. Deliver pain to your every breath."
"You thwarted me at every turn. Now you will give me peace, as I take my revenge on every second of your life. Goodbye. Goodbye, Doctor".
Basically, the GI was acting out it's dying wish. To go out with a bang, and to take The Doctor with him for revenge.
I think The Bells of Saint John and The Snowmen were simply precursors to that final act - it feeds off of humanity in The Bells of Saint John for example, and The Doctor puts a stop to that.In The Snowmen it was trying to take on corporeal form I believe, which The Doctor also thwarted
"It will kill me. It will destroy you. I can rewrite your every living moment. I can turn every one of you victories into defeats. Poison every friendship. Deliver pain to your every breath."
"You thwarted me at every turn. Now you will give me peace, as I take my revenge on every second of your life. Goodbye. Goodbye, Doctor".
Basically, the GI was acting out it's dying wish. To go out with a bang, and to take The Doctor with him for revenge.
I think The Bells of Saint John and The Snowmen were simply precursors to that final act - it feeds off of humanity in The Bells of Saint John for example, and The Doctor puts a stop to that.In The Snowmen it was trying to take on corporeal form I believe, which The Doctor also thwarted
Looking back, I wouldn't be surprised if "The Bells of St. John" wasn't the only time the Great Intelligence was behind a plot the Doctor foiled without the Doctor knowing who he was fighting.
What if the Great Intelligence has been defeated hundreds of times, and the Doctor was none the wiser?
What if the Great Intelligence has been defeated hundreds of times, and the Doctor was none the wiser?
Slightly off topic, but is it ever mentioned why the Doctor doesn't seem to remember meeting the Great Intelligence before ?
Originally Posted by sithlord3k:
“Slightly off topic, but is it ever mentioned why the Doctor doesn't seem to remember meeting the Great Intelligence before ?”
“Slightly off topic, but is it ever mentioned why the Doctor doesn't seem to remember meeting the Great Intelligence before ?”
In The Snowmen, the Doctor said that the Great Intelligence "rings a bell". In his timeline it had been many hundreds of years since their previous encounter...and what with a Time War getting in his way as well, I just presumed it was to mean that he was so old now that he couldn't remember all of his adversaries from over time. He could remember the name, but he couldn't place it.
If not sold on that, then we can always fall back on the "Clara did it" resolution?
Originally Posted by Abomination:
“In The Snowmen, the Doctor said that the Great Intelligence "rings a bell". In his timeline it had been many hundreds of years since their previous encounter...and what with a Time War getting in his way as well, I just presumed it was to mean that he was so old now that he couldn't remember all of his adversaries from over time. He could remember the name, but he couldn't place it. ”
“In The Snowmen, the Doctor said that the Great Intelligence "rings a bell". In his timeline it had been many hundreds of years since their previous encounter...and what with a Time War getting in his way as well, I just presumed it was to mean that he was so old now that he couldn't remember all of his adversaries from over time. He could remember the name, but he couldn't place it. ”
That fits with the Doctor so perfectly, I'm sold :P
Though "The Name of the Doctor" does screw up the GI's timeline somewhat.
Battles 11 in 19th century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 2 in 20th century Tibet - motive: take over the world.
Battles 2 (again) in late 20th century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 11 (again) in 21st century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 11 (final time) in 19th century London + Trenzalore (time unknown) - motive: kill the Doctor
So was the GI a time traveller before entering the Doctor's time stream or are we back to lazy writing?
And, of course, the "Simeon" personna was absent from the 2nd Doctor's adventures.
Battles 11 in 19th century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 2 in 20th century Tibet - motive: take over the world.
Battles 2 (again) in late 20th century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 11 (again) in 21st century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 11 (final time) in 19th century London + Trenzalore (time unknown) - motive: kill the Doctor
So was the GI a time traveller before entering the Doctor's time stream or are we back to lazy writing?
And, of course, the "Simeon" personna was absent from the 2nd Doctor's adventures.
Originally Posted by Brass Drag0n:
“Though "The Name of the Doctor" does screw up the GI's timeline somewhat.
Battles 11 in 19th century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 2 in 20th century Tibet - motive: take over the world.
Battles 2 (again) in late 20th century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 11 (again) in 21st century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 11 (final time) in 19th century London + Trenzalore (time unknown) - motive: kill the Doctor
So was the GI a time traveller before entering the Doctor's time stream or are we back to lazy writing?”
“Though "The Name of the Doctor" does screw up the GI's timeline somewhat.
Battles 11 in 19th century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 2 in 20th century Tibet - motive: take over the world.
Battles 2 (again) in late 20th century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 11 (again) in 21st century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 11 (final time) in 19th century London + Trenzalore (time unknown) - motive: kill the Doctor
So was the GI a time traveller before entering the Doctor's time stream or are we back to lazy writing?”
Not really, he just needs to get to Trenzalore in the future. Who knows how long he waited after The Bells of St John in order to lure the Doctor there?
There is one handwave, and one unexplained - Vastra says that, "Time travel has always been possible in dreams", which is why the GI is able to gatecrash, and of course the Whispermen appear in all the various time zones. But then we know absolutely nothing about what they are or what they can do anyway.
So, the only time he doesn't appear in the future is during the psychic conference call.
Originally Posted by Brass Drag0n:
“Though "The Name of the Doctor" does screw up the GI's timeline somewhat.
Battles 11 in 19th century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 2 in 20th century Tibet - motive: take over the world.
Battles 2 (again) in late 20th century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 11 (again) in 21st century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 11 (final time) in 19th century London + Trenzalore (time unknown) - motive: kill the Doctor
So was the GI a time traveller before entering the Doctor's time stream or are we back to lazy writing?
And, of course, the "Simeon" personna was absent from the 2nd Doctor's adventures.”
“Though "The Name of the Doctor" does screw up the GI's timeline somewhat.
Battles 11 in 19th century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 2 in 20th century Tibet - motive: take over the world.
Battles 2 (again) in late 20th century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 11 (again) in 21st century London - motive: take over the world.
Battles 11 (final time) in 19th century London + Trenzalore (time unknown) - motive: kill the Doctor
So was the GI a time traveller before entering the Doctor's time stream or are we back to lazy writing?
And, of course, the "Simeon" personna was absent from the 2nd Doctor's adventures.”
Never seen the story but from what I've read the GI was around for 100's of years in Tibet before the start of the story set there.
This of course predates "The Snowmen" where it's implied the Intelligence first arrives on Earth (snowflakes traveling through Space).
It could be explained by the two 2nd Doctor encounters being from after the GI enters the Doctors Timestream however the GI of "Bells of St John" seems to be aware of these encounters (at least The Web of Fear) as he talks about UNIT and the Doctor being old friends.
Another explanation is that different parts of the GI arrive on Earth at different times with some landing in Tibet in the 1600's, some in England in 1840 (or whatever year it was that young Simeon met it) and some arriving in 1890.
