I am in a state of shock. I have just found out that you can get an FTA PVR that has an EPG!

For the last 4 years I have been the unfortunate owner of a Freesat box (Foxsat). I hated it so much. It's the worst piece of junk PVR I've ever used, but I was led to believe that the only way to get an FTA PVR with an EPG is to get a Freesat box.

Now, someone has just kindly informed me that there is no need for Freesat. This brings 5 questions straight to my mind:

1) Seriously, why would anyone buy a Freesat box if you don't need Freesat. Is there any benefit at all of Freesat, or are the only people who buy Freesat people like me who have been misinformed?

2) Where is the forum for FTA PVRs? There is a dedicated Freesat forum, but presumably those people are only a tiny minority. Where is the forum for everyone else?

3) How long has this been possible to have an FTA PVR with an EPG? It is nearly 5 years ago since I researched which Freesat box to get and I thought I'd done my homework. But maybe this is a new thing?

4) Can anyone tell me roughly how many options there are on the market at the moment, or is there any list or comparison site anywhere?

5) My final question is, can anyone recommend me a good box?

Features that matter to me (in order):

Very important[list=1][*]Two tuners (or more)
[*]Fast controls/interface that responds instantly. (The Foxsat was nightmarishly unresponsive to the point of being virtually unusable.)
[*]Ability to re-order and delete channels. (No way I'm scrolling through hundreds of channels I never watch, or having the channels in some crazy random order, like the ridiculous order Freesat puts them in.)
[*]Fast and responsive playback control/fast forward/time jumping.
[*]Automatic programme searches (for automatic scheduling of programmes that have no series link data, or you just want to tell it to record anything containing certain words). This is very important for me as most of my favourite programmes have no series link data.
[*]Ability to connect to a USB device to back up recordings to PC.[/list]
Quite important:
[list=7][*]Large EPG with plenty of channels/time on screen at once, as well as on-screen Programme Info (so when you move over a programme you can read the info without having to press the Info button).
[*]Controls to quickly and easily select, move and delete multiple files, so you can keep everything tidy in its proper folder without the need to go into a special "file management area".
[*]A delete button! (Instead of having to press like 5 buttons to delete something, as with the Poo-max Foxsat)
[*]Good remote with comfy, distinctive buttons that you can find without looking at them.
[*]As a Toppy Freeview owner, I would feel a little lost without channel logos in the EPG.
[*]A box that wasn't full of bugs and maybe had the occasional software update?[/list]

Yes there are indeed alternatives to a Freesat box, however the reason many get one is due to the 24 hr "plug and play" epg that is inbuilt. You can, with a little more effort, get many non-freesat enigma2 linux boxes to automatically daily download an epg. You can also upload your channel lists to a computer and re-order them etc. You can record to any external or internal (2.5") drive on two channels with such a twin-tuner device. The catch is that whilst I would happily recommend a box such as as VU+ Solo2, it is not easy to fully set up one of these type of "non freesat Linux boxes." If you are prepared to put the extra effort of learning how to use such a box, you will be richly rewarded with a fantastic epg, lovely responsive channel changing, and another level of flexibility and customisation. I hope I have made it sound like the extra effort would be totally worth it though.

Ping Grand Dizzy.

Not sure why you have started another thread when all you questions and guidance was being answered elsewhere in the Freesat+ Recorders section.

I do however endorse all johnhoe comments.

Well because presumably no one who had an FTA PVR would have any reason to visit in the Freesat section ever again?

I wanted to find a proper FTA PVR forum where there are plenty of people who can offer suggestions. I expect most of the people in the Freesat forum would either be Freesat lovers, or people like me who just didn't know there was any alternative.

I respect that you were there on that forum and you seem to know your stuff, but I felt that you would be alone on these matters and I wanted to seek as much advice as possible.

In addition, that other thread was asking to help me find a Freesat box, which I thought at the time was my only option. But now I am looking for something totally different, hence a new thread.


Sorry, what does that mean?


Are you saying all non-Freesat PVRs with EPGs are typically tricky to set up, or just the one you'd recommend (the VU+)?

And by tricky, do you mean the manufacturers haven't designed this for novices and there's a huge technical manual, because I'm fine with that.

Or do you mean in order to get it working well, you need to do custom software tweaks (or even hardware tweaks) and do things the manufacturers never intended? Again, I am kind of used to that, owning a Topfield, which took a me LOT of hard work to get up and running properly.

I don't really mind a learning curve. I like tweaking, I like options. I like to be in control of every little detail (the Toppy PVR has millions of options and that is what I like). Basically I would do whatever it takes to get a nice looking EPG and have a little control over the way things look. I always have strong feelings about the way a GUI looks because I design that sort of thing for a living, so that really matters to me personally.

I'm not bothered about hard drive space either. 120 gig would do me fine. As long as I can back up to PC. Nor am I bothered about series link, or how long the EPG lasts for. Just as long as I can assign automatic searches for things I want which it will then automatically check every night.

I suppose the only negative would be if it costs a lot. I am not looking to spend a fortune, since I don't watch much satellite TV. My Toppy Freeview box is still my default and preferred TV box. But I do watch some satellite channels and when I do, it would be nice to have something better than steaming a pile of crap (also known as Freesat).

The Freesat EPG is only available to licensees which have to pay for it - Freesat certified boxes also get extra features like the interactivity which is available on some channels. The biggest advantage of a Freesat box is that the channel listings are updated automatically.

The other boxes have "reversed engineered" the EPG and have added it to there existing channels - however as it's not populating the channel list and EPG in the usual way it becomes a faff

Also not all FTA channels are in the Freesat EPG - on my media centre this means I've had to add the Sky EPG too (not sure if any FTA boxes make use of that) and utilise XMLTV for some channels (radio stations basically) which are in neither. Also when channels change frequencies you have to manually retune too - IME 1-2 channels do this every month, and we've just had a big move that effected 30 channels twice in two weeks.

TBH if you can work a Toppy you'll be okay - just don't expect to come home, plug it in and be watching TV without sitting down and spending a bit of time setting it up (as the manufacture intended) - i.e. it's not "plug and play", it's "plug, sit down, RTM, and play and tweak".

For the ultimate in customisation you'll want a Media Centre - with my XBMC setup I have terrestrial and satellite tuners (five Freeview, one "Freesat") but you can do whatever combination you want, it's generally quick to respond (although my machine is a little under powered), you can customise the channel list exactly as you want, jump forward in 60 seconds increments instantly, have automatic programme searches (note only on titles not synopsis on mine) and being a PC you can simply share via a network file share or USB sticks. There are plenty of customisations you can do to meet your requirements, you can add post recording scripts to move the files where you want them (all my "Horizon" recordings are moved to the Horizon folder for instance, my more "throw away" stuff are left in the usual recording folder. As it works with a library interface moving files is something I otherwise don't need to do and deletion is a bit of a faff (right click menu, up, up, okay, left okay). You can choose your own remote control from those out there (I use a One For All) and have logos in the EPG, it's open source so a tad buggy (about once a week it just restarts the interface - although recordings are uneffected) and gets frequent updates. If you've got access to a second satellite dish then all the channels appear as equal citizens (IN http://kjs.me.uk/3rdparty/digitalspy/multipleepgs.png Sky News, CBBC, Cbeebies, and CITV are from the Freeview EPG, RTL is using the EIT EPG from it's transponder (the UK channels use this for now/next only - the major german channels carry 14 days) and the other channels are from Freesat/Sky).

Basically the more you tailor a PVR to your liking the longer it will take to set it up, but the more it will suit you.

1) Linux boxes like the VU+ Solo2 are really enthusiasts boxes and as has been mentioned they are not "plug and play" and are not designed for novices.
2) Freesat's 24 hour epg is built into the software and the functionality of the Freesat box as opposed to
3) The 24 hour epg on a linux box needs to be downloaded with a plugin such as "Crossepg" - extra work.
4) You can use this box for all sorts of other things like Iplayer, Weather, IPTV, HIBtv. It is infinitely upgradable and customisable.
5) Linux non-freesat boxes such as the VU+Solo2 are just a sub-set of Non-Freesat boxes. Other simpler though less functional boxes are available.
6) VU+ Solo2 Twin Tuner box costs £290

Kev and John,

Thank you both for the info. Extremely useful. Thank you!

So aside from the EPG and channel data broadcast by Freesat, I presume there is no alternative? No "public domain" EPG like you get with Freeview? So everyone has to hijack Freesat's data hence no one can officially market this as a plug-and-play box because that would be stealing Freesat's data? Back in the 90s, someone tried to sell me a dodgy Sky card and he said "it's not actually illegal because once data has been into space no one owns it". I'm guessing that won't stick any more?

If I had the business skills I'd market a swanky, cheap plug-and-play non-Freesat PVR with its own EPG service. Sure, I'd have to pay some guy to regularly collate EPG data, but if I stole even a tiny share of Freesat's market (just as Freesat did to Sky) then wouldn't the cost be justified? Oh hang on… how much does it cost to broadcast EPG data via the satellite? Ah.


LOL! Got it!

The re-tuning aspect is the thing that's putting me off right now. I don't mind it taking forever to set up initially, but after that I just want something that doesn't need regular attention. When I was younger and had more time on my hands, regular re-tuning would have been no problem and actually kind of fun to me. But these days I just don't have that kind of time, especially as this will not be my primary TV box. I love my Toppy!

But it won't do HD!

Try a receiver that will run Vix. See www.world-of-satellite.com. There is a facility for using the Sky channel list. (if you like that)

The EPGs aren't actually encrypted, but they are compressed using an encoding method which is what the licensees pay for.

Also anything carrying the Freesat HD (and IIRC Freeview HD) logos (which are a requirement to access the EPG) has to encrypt the recordings of the HD channels on your box which can make moving them elsewhere an arse. Fortunately they are actually FTA on both platforms so none Freeview/sat boxes can record them no problems.

Why do HD have to be encrypted? That seems really stupid.

I had always found HD recordings a real pain to copy over to the PC. Sometimes they copy sometimes they don't. Sometimes they play on the PC, sometimes they don't. It almost seems random. Oh and I have to make sure they're only short recordings as I think the 4gb file limit restricts copying longer HD recordings. All in all it's really stupid. Though thankfully I don't record much in HD.

So I have HD recordings on my PC that won't play. Presumably these must still be encrypted. Anyone know a way to decrypt them?

The data is not encrypted, just compressed in a way that FTA boxes can't normally handle. The PC application I use has no trouble decoding the full 7-day guide for Freesat and other FTA channels. I'd be surprised if none of the 3rd-party images for Linux boxes could do the same.

Sorry for any misunderstandings here. Let me make it clear that FREE EPG information can be automatically downloaded by most Linux boxes, including 7 day full EPGs with programme info. My only reservation in using a Linux box for this purpose is that it is difficult to set up,

They'll be encrypted by the box (and I believe discussion on how to decrypted them is banned on these forums) so that will be box dependant.

The 4GB limit may be down to the filesystem (e.g. try formatting your USB stick into NTFS instead of FAT32).

FWIW the original broadcasts are unencrypted so any generic box or PC tuner will receive them without problems (yet another one of these anti-piracy measures that does nothing to combat piracy but inconveniences the consumer).

Typically you get the Freesat 7 day programme schedule, which is what you need for scheduling recordings.

What you don't get is the Freesat channel list and tuning parameters. In the case of Vix there is a Sky channel list. I don't know much about it as I don't use it. The boxes like to have an internet connection. HD recordings are not encrypted and can be played on a PC with VLC either via a network connection or by copying. The file size on the PVR can exceed 4GB.

Not being allowed to discuss decryption seems ridiculous. How can broadcasters say we have no right to keep recordings of TV programmes that we ourselves funded to be made (either directly with the BBC, or by sitting through the adverts of commercial channels).

Also if this is about protecting blu-ray sales, I don't see how that could make any difference. Surely if a TV show is released on blu-ray then the high quality blu-ray will be shared by the file-sharers, and no one will even want the inferior quality TV recording.

Except that BluRay encryption is still largely intact - unlike DVDs which now might as well not be encrypted at all!

So yes! HD copies of material are thought to be still valuable and worth protecting.

Ok For the last time. Recordings made on a FTA PVR are not encrypted whether they are HD or SD.

Edit Should have said, this applies to either Freesat or Freeview recordings.

However HD recordings made on a Freesat (and Freeview?) HD branded PVR are encrypted when stored on disk. Generic receivers don't do this, but they also lack the full EPG and it's associated benefits

I did actually say all FTA PVR's can record SD and HD without encryption!
Why do you keep saying that they don't have the full EPG and associated benefits? Give me one feature/ benefit that a FTA machine cannot do or hasn't got over a Freesat or Freeview one.

For the vast majority of generic satellite boxes there is no EPG above now and next (not a problem at all with Freeview) and you need to manually retune for services regularly (something as I pointed out earlier I tend to have to do twice a month on the 100 or so channels on my FTA satellite box). - most (if not all) also have no access to the interactive services

Series link and immediate offer of choice of HD/SD for recordings (as per freesat boxes) and automatic update of channel lists (inc transponder changes). All built into the freesat EPG system. Name a FTA receiver that can do these without an internet connection or manual intervention.

Yes FTA boxes do have a few advantages but have severe drawbacks for the average non techie user in terms of ease of use, ease of setup and effort required to be "family friendly".

Thanks to everyone who has been contributing here. This is all interesting to know.

I was initially very excited and enthusiastic about non-Freesat FTA boxes, but since I don't have a lot of time to spend adjusting channels, and I don't intend to install Internet in my living room, I kind of want something that I can just set up once and needs less regular maintenance. Therefore I am leaning towards just going with a new (shudder) Freesat box for the time being until things get a little more user-friendly in the FTA scene.