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EE says other operators won't be able to cope!!!
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Aye Up
05-11-2013
Quote:
“UK MOBILE OPERATOR EE CEO Olaf Swantee said on Tuesday that rival operators will struggle to cope with the growing demand for 4G service in the UK due to their lack of spectrum access.”

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...with-4g-demand

I really do not know how on earth they have come to that conclusion. Its generally accepted Vodafone did the best at the most recent auction. They have the most varied spectrum of any provider. Vodafone if it wanted to could use carrier aggregation across 4 different ranges. I honestly think this is hyperbole....its no secret EE is investing in its 4G network but call problems and quality is seemingly common place where as other networks are improving this in addition to rolling out 4G so really who is unable to cope now?
jchamier
05-11-2013
Originally Posted by Aye Up:
“I really do not know how on earth they have come to that conclusion.”

I think this is the best summary (I think its accurate):
http://www.prattfamily.demon.co.uk/mikep/frequency.htm

From that you can see EE have a serious amount of 1800mhz spectrum - the total they have being 219 MHz across all the bands. Vodafone are next with 143 MHz, and O2 and Three are very similar.

So EE are in a great place to do crazy stunts and do the marketing talk about the future. It doesn't mean anyone will buy a 300megabit or faster Cat 6 device, or that they won't want £500/month for the service (with 10megabytes usage I bet!!).
interactiv-uk
05-11-2013
As they say, it's not what you've got it's what you do with it! The operators that bought smaller amounts of spectrum must feel it is sufficient to provide the quality service they want.

Technology moves on too and who knows what's around the corner that will let you squeeze more throughput into a smaller amount of spectrum.
jchamier
05-11-2013
Originally Posted by interactiv-uk:
“As they say, it's not what you've got it's what you do with it! The operators that bought smaller amounts of spectrum must feel it is sufficient to provide the quality service they want.”

Very true, and Three with their 9 million customers has no problem, compared to EE with their 26 or 28 million customers

Quote:
“Technology moves on too and who knows what's around the corner that will let you squeeze more throughput into a smaller amount of spectrum.”

Except you often have to wait for your customers to buy new hardware, on a 2 year or more cycle. This is why the networks push what we consider older technology for a long time. DC-HSPA isn't new, but Three have been pushing it hard - as even fairly fast phones like the S3 and iPhone 4S didn't properly support it.
Minardi
05-11-2013
I did feel it was interesting 3 chose not to put the boat out and go for 2600MHz spectrum. I know they had the 2x15MHz of 1800MHz bought, but given the high data demand in urban areas on their network, I would have had them down as wanting more high capacity spectrum. Perhaps it was just out of their reach on cost.
klendathu
05-11-2013
EE have become obsessed with rolling out 4g , and will stop at nothing to be known as the biggest .
But they have taken the eye off the ball when it comes to service.
You never get the same answer from the shop , the phone or the website .
.
Quantity is more important than quality as far as they are concerned .
But it should be the other way round .
RAN Man
05-11-2013
Originally Posted by Aye Up:
“Its generally accepted Vodafone did the best at the most recent auction. They have the most varied spectrum of any provider. Vodafone if it wanted to could use carrier aggregation across 4 different ranges.”

No they can't, at least not in the short/medium term. InterBand CA is based on combining 2 bands max at any one time, so the max available to any operator is as below I believe:-

EE 20@1800 + 20@2600 = 40Mhz (~300Mbps peak)
Vodafone 10@800 + 20@2600 = 30Mhz (~225Mbps peak)
Three 5@800 + 15@1800 = 20Mhz (~150Mbps peak)
O2 10@800 + 5@1800= 15Mhz (~112Mbps peak)

This excludes the 2100 and 900 as there are no real devices at present and these bands are all pretty much full with 3G and 2G as well ( and assumes three get the additional 5@1800 from EE). And even if included no other operator other than EE, currently has 2 blocks of 20Mhz they can combine together with their current Spectrum holding.

This doesn't stop networks building additional cells with the bits and bobs left over and combining them in other CA groups, but it wouldn't improve their peak speed, and wouldn't be as efficient, but would increase the networks overall capacity.
jchamier
05-11-2013
Do you know if its possible for any operator to use more then 20mhz in a band? (e.g. if EE turned off all 2G in 10 years time).
qasdfdsaq
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by RAN Man:
“No they can't, at least not in the short/medium term. InterBand CA is based on combining 2 bands max at any one time, so the max available to any operator is as below I believe:-

EE 20@1800 + 20@2600 = 40Mhz (~300Mbps peak)
Vodafone 10@800 + 20@2600 = 30Mhz (~225Mbps peak)
Three 5@800 + 15@1800 = 20Mhz (~150Mbps peak)
O2 10@800 + 5@1800= 15Mhz (~112Mbps peak)”

You forget Vodafone have 25Mhz of TDD spectrum in the 2600Mhz band, which when used with CA can be entirely dedicated to the downstream, giving 20@2600 + 20@2600 = 40Mhz, or the same 300Mbps peak as EE.

Originally Posted by RAN Man:
“This excludes the 2100 and 900 as there are no real devices at present and these bands are all pretty much full with 3G and 2G as well ( and assumes three get the additional 5@1800 from EE). And even if included no other operator other than EE, currently has 2 blocks of 20Mhz they can combine together with their current Spectrum holding. .”

Ehm, both the Galaxy S4 and the iPhone 5s - the two biggest selling 4G devices in the UK - support 2100Mhz and 900Mhz.

Although neither support CA, we need new devices for that anyway, but when basically all LTE phones support both bands it's hardly a case of "no real devices at present"

Originally Posted by jchamier:
“Do you know if its possible for any operator to use more then 20mhz in a band? (e.g. if EE turned off all 2G in 10 years time).”

Yes, but it still requires LTE-Advanced carrier aggregation. That said aggregating more than 20Mhz in one band is a lot easier than aggregating more than 20Mhz across multiple bands.

And no EE will not turn off all 2G in 10 years time.
jchamier
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq:
“Yes, but it still requires LTE-Advanced carrier aggregation. That said aggregating more than 20Mhz in one band is a lot easier than aggregating more than 20Mhz across multiple bands.

And no EE will not turn off all 2G in 10 years time.”

Interesting - and the 2G question was only a dig at AT&T in the USA who have already announced they're turning off their 1900mhz GSM/2G to switch the frequencies to 1900mhz UMTS/3G - they have a big capacity problem.

EE have so much 1800, they shouldn't need to - but aggregation at 1800 could be in their "do it eventually" plan
qasdfdsaq
06-11-2013
Maybe, but they have plenty of 2100Mhz and 2600Mhz too, so shouldn't be much need.

2G (in the UK) is still a global standard (whereas in the US it was a bit of a shoe-in between their own CDMA technologies and WCDMA/LTE)

Personally I would love if they switched off 2G across the UK because frankly the only thing I do when I ever see 2G indicators on my phone is that it is an indicator to switch to 3G only and do a network search.
zx50
06-11-2013
I wish all broadband speeds in the ground would start increasing as fast as the mobile internet speeds are.
DevonBloke
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq:
“Personally I would love if they switched off 2G across the UK because frankly the only thing I do when I ever see 2G indicators on my phone is that it is an indicator to switch to 3G only and do a network search.”

Well I wouldn't. I still make a lot of calls over 2G out in the sticks.
Once they've rolled out 4G with VoLTE AND I have a VoLTE device then they can turn it off
qasdfdsaq
06-11-2013
I've not been anywhere in several years that's been 2G only, at least not so far out of coverage as moving a few metres wouldn't give me 3G. Even my old school (where we used to struggle to get 1 bar of 2G by the window) is now 3G covered. And yes, 800Mhz LTE with VoLTE will provide better coverage and speeds than 2G ever did - the sooner they roll it out the better.

AFAIK though VoLTE simply requires a software upgrade and most current LTE phones support it.
enapace
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by DevonBloke:
“Well I wouldn't. I still make a lot of calls over 2G out in the sticks.
Once they've rolled out 4G with VoLTE AND I have a VoLTE device then they can turn it off ”

think we are likely to see for EE at least a 2G turn off date around 2017. So they can fully utilise there 1800MHz as 5G services are being tested. Not sure on Vodafone and O2 but expect they are likely to big bidders for 700MHz in around 2018 specially O2.

2.3GHZ is going be TDD-LTE and they are seriously considering 3.4GHZ-3.6GHz for TDD-LTE. Not sure if you interested in that or not. I can see the later helping in achieve 100% superfast coverage via wireless and fixed line in the UK. Government are saying 2020 for 100% population now still a long way of but would be very nice.
DevonBloke
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq:
“I've not been anywhere in several years that's been 2G only, at least not so far out of coverage as moving a few metres wouldn't give me 3G. Even my old school (where we used to struggle to get 1 bar of 2G by the window) is now 3G covered. And yes, 800Mhz LTE with VoLTE will provide better coverage and speeds than 2G ever did - the sooner they roll it out the better.

AFAIK though VoLTE simply requires a software upgrade and most current LTE phones support it.”

You forget I'm in bloody middle earth down here Hahahaha
Devon has lots of valleys where only 2G reaches.
There may be a whiff of 3G outside but when I'm in a customers farmhouse in one of these pits it's nearly always a few bars 2G.
DevonBloke
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by enapace:
“think we are likely to see for EE at least a 2G turn off date around 2017. So they can fully utilise there 1800MHz as 5G services are being tested. Not sure on Vodafone and O2 but expect they are likely to big bidders for 700MHz in around 2018 specially O2.

2.3GHZ is going be TDD-LTE and they are seriously considering 3.4GHZ-3.6GHz for TDD-LTE. Not sure if you interested in that or not. I can see the later helping in achieve 100% superfast coverage via wireless and fixed line in the UK. Government are saying 2020 for 100% population now still a long way of but would be very nice.”

Surely 3.4GHZ would be pretty poor on coverage. Can't see it getting down to me from my Cell.
2.3GHZ would probably get here though, considering it's only a tad higher than 2.1 and it won't "breath".
qasdfdsaq
06-11-2013
3.4Ghz would be fine for fixed broadband services and NLOS. Mind you I haven't a clue what the allowed transmit power will be on these bands but even at a relatively minute 1W EIRP 5.8Ghz wireless is good for dozens of miles and that requires 10-20dB stronger reception than LTE to function.

Also, since quadrupling the frequency is required to lose the equivalent of one bar of reception on modern devices, the difference between 2.6 and 3.4Ghz really isn't that great.
RAN Man
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by jchamier:
“Do you know if its possible for any operator to use more then 20mhz in a band? (e.g. if EE turned off all 2G in 10 years time).”

It is. Intra band CA supports bandwidths up to 100Mhz, if contiguous.
enapace
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by DevonBloke:
“Surely 3.4GHZ would be pretty poor on coverage. Can't see it getting down to me from my Cell.
2.3GHZ would probably get here though, considering it's only a tad higher than 2.1 and it won't "breath".”

As said above it depends on the power that is used. UK Broadband already use 3.4GHz they have 2x20MHz in that range. Not used myself but heard it is reliable in the places you can use it. Your right it will likely only ever be used in Cities. The 2.3GHz auction will be interesting curious about who will buy I can't see EE or Vodafone wanting as they have massive chunks of 2600MHz and a good amount of 2100MHz.

Originally Posted by RAN Man:
“It is. Intra band CA supports bandwidths up to 100Mhz, if contiguous.”

Correct actually ofcom is offering to switch UK broadband's FDD in 3.4GHz to contiguous instead of 2x20MHz switching licence to 40MHz instead.
RAN Man
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq:
“You forget Vodafone have 25Mhz of TDD spectrum in the 2600Mhz band, which when used with CA can be entirely dedicated to the downstream, giving 20@2600 + 20@2600 = 40Mhz, or the same 300Mbps peak .”

I didn't forget, but I did caveat the statement with in the short/medium term. In the future, a lot of things are possible, that doesn't make them likely.

FDD +TDD CA is also a 3GPP R12 work item, ie not actually standardised yet, which probably puts it at least 3 years away in all reality.

http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/tsg_ran/TSG_.../RP-131399.zip
enapace
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by RAN Man:
“I didn't forget, but I did caveat the statement with in the short/medium term. In the future, a lot of things are possible, that doesn't make them likely.

FDD +TDD CA is also a 3GPP R12 work item, ie not actually standardised yet, which probably puts it at least 3 years away in all reality.

http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/tsg_ran/TSG_.../RP-131399.zip”

Yeah that is the problem Sprint is facing as they have a mix of FDD-LTE & TDD-LTE.

You need to consider though that it won't be until 3 or 4 years that vodafone even approach capacity.
RAN Man
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by enapace:
“Yeah that is the problem Sprint is facing as they have a mix of FDD-LTE & TDD-LTE.

You need to consider though that it won't be until 3 or 4 years that vodafone even approach capacity.”

True. When you consider the current single speed networks at 10Mhz in the UK have more radio capacity (per site) than their current 3G networks due to the higher spectral efficiency, I'd expect it to be some time before any reach radio capacity issues, dependent on uptake/usage.

But the forecasts for mobile data increases are pretty dramatic, e.g. A ten fold increase in the next five years or so, how real that is, we will have to wait and see.

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/solutions...11-520862.html
BKM
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by enapace:
“You need to consider though that it won't be until 3 or 4 years that vodafone even approach capacity.”

Assuming that they do a proper rollout of 4G!! Vodafone has been deeply unimpressive in my area on their current 3G implementation - a lot of 2G-only-coverage and 3G speeds of ~2Mbps (where available).

To get remotely close to the speeds people are talking of here will need a total revamp of their backhaul network!
Kenny Maclean
06-11-2013
Originally Posted by BKM:
“Assuming that they do a proper rollout of 4G!! Vodafone has been deeply unimpressive in my area on their current 3G implementation - a lot of 2G-only-coverage and 3G speeds of ~2Mbps (where available).

To get remotely close to the speeds people are talking of here will need a total revamp of their backhaul network!”

In cenral London outside Broadcasting House, the 3G was non existant. Wouldn't even open my homepage (probably the 6000 journalists plus all tourists on it). On 4G, all over London it's been fantastic 20-30+meg in most places.
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