DS Forums

 
 

Argentine Tango? Brendan looked like he was transferring a mannequin to a chair


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-11-2013, 10:25
DiamondBetty
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Manchester Lindy
Posts: 945

For me the basics have to be there to get an authentic appearance. (I suspect much the same applies in other disciplines).
I absolutely agree - what is often described as 'great style' is really a side effect of great technique.

Your fabulous description of the physics of AT really makes me want to try it, however, I don't have the time to do it justice, which is the trouble with SCD really. No one is going to nail the proper techniques for 14 dances in 3 months.

I'm still going to investigate what AT is on offer locally, even knowing that I won't be able to time commit, because I'm certain that the physics of it will bring new understanding to my general lead and follow. Plus, I like the music
DiamondBetty is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 10-11-2013, 11:09
peeve
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,751
I would agree with your comments Betty. Especially those concerning connection. I am also going to pinch your colour coding analogy - I think it will be an excellent way of describing a feeling to the more visual learners. Thank you.

Connection is an excellent word that encompasses both the physical connection of the frame that allows communication between the couple to occur and also the rapport that put the sizzle into the dynamic (more than just an overlay of acting or wearing a "tango/rumba/paso - face")

However in AT the frame does need to be solid (probably in other BR dances too). It doesn't want to be stiff but it should have a rigidity. Its more than just adopting a style but more the physics, so to speak, that enables the dance to work. The posture is also important in this way. The walk too is important and the rest - decorations and illusions - follow from /are enabled by these three elements.

The couple's upper bodies should be slightly inclined so they form a letter A shape. Their upper body positions should mirror one another so the lady keeps her torso square onto the man pretty well all the time. Their arms should be solid, not rigid exactly but with no obvious flexing and stretching. (Think of making a telephone from string and cans - if the string isn't tight the signal can't get through) The upper part of the dancers should be as if welded in plaster of Paris. The upper body is solid and the lower body loose, free, relaxed.

The lower body should be further apart than the upper body. The walk is I think the most important visual detail to get right. The steps should comprise of three parts. The step is initiated in the lead’s upper body, (called the intent or invitation) if the upper body is a solid fixed frame the point of least resistance is the follower’s free leg. The frame (The man's torso as a complete unit) is what moves first. Once her leg is in motion the man starts to move too. He is therefore moving momentarily behind her.

The follower pushes her foot out behind her (or to the side or sometimes in front) keeping it as close to the ground as possible and transfers her weight onto it as the very last element of the step. The lady puts her weight onto the ball of her foot first and some sources say the inner ball of the foot is the best technique for a beautiful step. A fraction of a second later the man also pushes his unweighted foot in the direction of travel and transfers his weight onto it at the last minute.

Between the initiation and final weight change there is something called the brush point where the dancers ‘collect’. I feel this is the really distinctive visual feature of AT it also helps manage the timing of the couple. Imagine you have little magnets in your ankle bones, as one foot passes your other foot the magnets try to pull together so there is a fraction of a hesitation as the ankles brush past one another. It’s not a pause and you certainly don’t stop but more like a little quiver as you overcome the resistance of the imaginary magnetic force. I saw none of this footwork in Sophie and Brendan’s walks last night.

I would have also liked to have seen a little walking in cross system. Mostly in dance the man steps on his right as the lady steps on her left (assuming they are face to face). In AT both partners can walk on their right (or left) when in front facing hold. Aficionados tell me this is unique to AT but I don’t know that to be the case. But it is this that allows for many of the more decorative steps that distinguish AT. Sacadas or displacements are a characteristic movement in which the man ‘asks’ the lady to move her foot a split second before he occupies the space her foot left with his foot. This gives the impression of him having kicked her foot out of the way

Most of the stuff most people recognise as being AT is done in the lower body. The upper body remains fairly fixed and the lower moves about. In the ocho (swivel) for example the upper body continues to face the direction of travel (line of dance). The foot then moves at an angle to the lower body and as the ankles meet up the dancer pivots on one foot and changes weight. The lower body is facing a different direction to the upper.

The kicks are frequently ganchos or enganches or sometimes an embellishment. But you really can’t just walk around a dance floor using an ordinary gait and flick up a leg here and there, no matter how well timed to the music, and expect the outcome to look like an AT. In my opinion the only way to make a dance look like AT is to remain faithful to the physics that enable AT.

Quite apart from the lack of emotional intensity my impression of B and S yesterday was that they faked it too much and for this reason I thought their marks were fair to generous. It was an enjoyable dance but was not a good example of AT.

For me the basics have to be there to get an authentic appearance. (I suspect much the same applies in other disciplines).
Thank you SO much for this very interesting insight into what an AT should be. I've watched loads of them on YouTube and seen Brazilian old age pensioners dancing it with more passion than Sophie and Brendan managed. Nor did they connect in that lovely A frame way that you describe.

I was really disappointed.

Also, there was a distinct whiff of Bacofoil about the way Brendan lifted and placed Sophie. I started getting flashbacks...
peeve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 11:22
JosephFanAlison
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: in recovery mode
Posts: 1,747
Really interesting post on the technique - thank you!
JosephFanAlison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 16:14
darnelle
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,042
imho two of the greatest from Buenos Aires - not one lift

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL9scCF6F1E
darnelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 16:22
Monaogg
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: 🍷 🎼 ☔
Posts: 10,117
imho two of the greatest from Buenos Aires - not one lift

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL9scCF6F1E
Stunningly beautiful. And no dressing like a desperate hooker either (not that Sophie looked like that I hasten to add, but it is a look Wardrobe favour for the AT).
Monaogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 16:29
Muggsy
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,980
imho two of the greatest from Buenos Aires - not one lift

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL9scCF6F1E
Ooh, thankyou darnelle. I really enjoyed watching that; was completely lost in it.

I always think authentic AT is very erotic, possibly because there seems to be such an intense emotional connection between the couple.
Muggsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 16:29
aggs
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 13,160
imho two of the greatest from Buenos Aires - not one lift

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL9scCF6F1E
Oh wow. That is fabulous.
It loos so organic.
Think that was my main problem with Sophe and Brendan's it looked choreographed - and not only that it looked like a series of moves had been decided on and then were just linked toghether any old how.
aggs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 16:42
darnelle
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,042
to be fair to Sophie and brendan they are not AT dancers .

It takes a very long time to be able to dance like Javier Rodriguez and Geraldine Rojas - i am happy you enjoyed the tango I posted - it is beautiful when danced correctly and authentically and I wanted to share it because it is so lovely .

My fav part [among many] is at the very end when they do not break contact for a couple of seconds because they are lost in the dance even although it is over...

one of the beginning teaching techniques in Argentina is to just stand at the beginning forehead to forehead [as they dance in the clip] to get a feeling for your partner.....
darnelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 16:51
ESPIONdansant
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Somewhere in the UK
Posts: 6,493
This series more than any other has emphasised the personality, the role.

That, I believe, is greatly to the detriment of the dancing. The movement doesn't come from selecting the right facial expression! Let your feet do the talking. Technically the series has been poor. There has been little progress made, little improvement.

Feet, ankles, knees, hips and upwards. Gurning isn't enough.

Sophie's legs are like a child's. Weak.
ESPIONdansant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:05
Miriam_R
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,320
It's a small thing I know, but the chair annoyed me and her sitting on it just once in the routine (or having any other interaction with it) would have been enough for me.

With the lifts, Sophie's landing of them and more the transition to the next standing step/move from them didn't seem very assured, which was a shame. The pauses sometimes after being put down fom a lift (where she was just still and holding herself really hard) to the next connecting step seemed abit awkward to me as well, but that's just my take.

I liked the music and thought that it's sort of punchy beat might get Sophie in a more intentful (dancing) mood, but again she was abit low on that counter, overall. However, keeping in mind that Brendan is no Pro at this particular disciple himself, the attempt by both in terms of the steps and stylilisation, was ok enough. Don't think it's the worst A.Tango we've seen.

I've just watched the A.Tango by Vincent and Rachel and that's the extent of fast intricate footwork and covering of the floor that I like (aside from the nice lifts), and would have loved to have seen in this routine. But again, I understand the circumstances of Brendan trying to create what he can. As for Sophie, she needs to get an acting coach in because, while might think she's trying to put more performance into the dance , it's not translating outside of her body or showing on her face enough. If anything she needs to over-do the facial expression because subtely just won't show enough. I know she'll feel bufoony for doing so, but that's how blatant she needs to be (since it's not coming, or at least showing, from her naturally).
Miriam_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:13
rifleman
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 482
yes she does look like a Mannequin because she doesn't do the Tan/Spray tan Prefer her Mannequin look to her looking like an Umpa Loompa!
rifleman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:17
sofakat
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,110
imho two of the greatest from Buenos Aires - not one lift

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL9scCF6F1E
Perfect example darnelle - two of the greatest indeed. Geradine is my ultimate goddess of tango and the one whose style I hope to emulate.

Utter perfection
sofakat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:20
primer
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,733
interesting comments, and as i said earlier on the thread i think this was not a great dance, but an improvement on sophie's other recent efforts. i

do think though, that holding contestants to pure technique / form is a loser as they don't really learn these dances, any of them, they learn to give a convincing impression, and i think she did enough for that. if we're going to be 'strict' about technique and form, then we'd have to also hold natalie's almost entirely out of hold VW to a similar standard.
primer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:21
sofakat
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,110

It takes a very long time to be able to dance like Javier Rodriguez and Geraldine Rojas - i am happy you enjoyed the tango I posted - it is beautiful when danced correctly and authentically and I wanted to share it because it is so lovely .

My fav part [among many] is at the very end when they do not break contact for a couple of seconds because they are lost in the dance even although it is over...

one of the beginning teaching techniques in Argentina is to just stand at the beginning forehead to forehead [as they dance in the clip] to get a feeling for your partner.....
We spent a hell of a lot of hours just walking, to every kind of music, from Canaro to Pugliese, Vals to Milonga, in order to understand why the AT walk was not like any other

I love the other exercise of dancing chest to chest - no arms - to understand the connection and the lead.
sofakat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:29
aggs
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 13,160
interesting comments, and as i said earlier on the thread i think this was not a great dance, but an improvement on sophie's other recent efforts. i

do think though, that holding contestants to pure technique / form is a loser as they don't really learn these dances, any of them, they learn to give a convincing impression, and i think she did enough for that. if we're going to be 'strict' about technique and form, then we'd have to also hold natalie's almost entirely out of hold VW to a similar standard.
That's where I have to disagree, I'm afraid.

It think the AT looked liked a series of staged moves linked together any old how. I don't think Sophie stood a chance because Brendan doesn't 'get' the AT either. So she was being taught by someone who wasn't best placed, maybe.

My personal preference would have been for less staged big 'events' in favour of a more organic appearing dance, which is why I prefer Natalie's VW.

Wasn't there a pro on Dancing with the Stars who did the AT on there, fell in love with it and took herself to learn it properly? That's what I'd like to see from our Pros
aggs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:36
darnelle
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,042
Perfect example darnelle - two of the greatest indeed. Geradine is my ultimate goddess of tango and the one whose style I hope to emulate.

Utter perfection
geraldine has never had a partner like Javier since they split - her feet are so fabulous and her control out of this world - a very very good and excellent dancer to have as a level to aspire to good luck with it Sofakat- have you been to Argentina?
darnelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:37
primer
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,733
That's where I have to disagree, I'm afraid.

It think the AT looked liked a series of staged moves linked together any old how. I don't think Sophie stood a chance because Brendan doesn't 'get' the AT either. So she was being taught by someone who wasn't best placed, maybe.
i think sophie's faults were her usual ones - being a bit unstable, and not really understanding anything about transitions. i don't think that was particular to this style, she's been like that in every dance she's done.

the routine was not a genuine AT routine, few of them are for the reasons given earlier. but i can imagine a different celeb - say abby or even susannah - given the same routine would have made more of an acceptable impression of an AT out of what they were given, and i don't think we can really hope for much more than that out of a week's training and a non specialist pro.
primer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:43
SliverOfDiamond
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,443
Vincent did THIS with Rachel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6Wzg_nWdw

And while I appreciate Brendan is no expert, perhaps he should have just looked at youtube?
See I didn't like that either. It was clean, technical, flawlessly executed, but totally devoid of emotion. Vincent looked as though he was dancing with a very beautiful, china faced automaton. Sophie has exactly the same issue.
SliverOfDiamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:46
darnelle
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,042
See I didn't like that either. It was clean, technical, flawlessly executed, but totally devoid of emotion. Vincent looked as though he was dancing with a very beautiful, china faced automaton. Sophie has exactly the same issue.
its like cabaret dancing
darnelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:48
SliverOfDiamond
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,443
imho two of the greatest from Buenos Aires - not one lift

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL9scCF6F1E
That was absolutely sizzling. Thank you.
SliverOfDiamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:49
darnelle
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 9,042
That was absolutely sizzling. Thank you.
spread the word!!!!
darnelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 17:53
water_carrier
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,229
I thought the AT choreography was very good and I was impressed with Brendan's interpretation. What really let this dance down was Sophie. I thought she has learnt the routine very well but she didn't 'sell' it. I didn't believe it. It felt like dancing by numbers.
There was absolutely no emotion in her face, in her expression. I didn't believe it and therefore it fell flat. It's such a shame because visually I found it interesting to watch if only they could sell it more they may well have got higher scores.
I know Brendan was disappointed but it seemed like sour grapes when he seems narked by the marks they received. He needs to look at the dance again and then he'd realise why it wasn't quite right.
water_carrier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 18:09
An Thropologist
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16,125
Perfect example darnelle - two of the greatest indeed. Geradine is my ultimate goddess of tango and the one whose style I hope to emulate.

Utter perfection
Beautiful. Thanks for posting.
An Thropologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 18:12
edy10
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,443
I thought the AT choreography was very good and I was impressed with Brendan's interpretation. What really let this dance down was Sophie. I thought she has learnt the routine very well but she didn't 'sell' it. I didn't believe it. It felt like dancing by numbers.
There was absolutely no emotion in her face, in her expression. I didn't believe it and therefore it fell flat. It's such a shame because visually I found it interesting to watch if only they could sell it more they may well have got higher scores.
I know Brendan was disappointed but it seemed like sour grapes when he seems narked by the marks they received. He needs to look at the dance again and then he'd realise why it wasn't quite right.
My thoughts exactly.I totally agree
edy10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2013, 19:07
Duckfeet
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 102
Many thanks to Diamond Betty and An Thropologist for their clear and comprehensive remarks on the AT - brilliant!

I've been wondering whether Sophie has a faulty strategy for memorising the sequences - this is why she is expressionless (preoccupied with trying to recall the next steps), and her movement is stop-and-go. She may remember the dance more as a series of stills than as a video. .

She certainly had plenty of facial expression during the judge's comments - I was a little afraid that she was going to faint!
Duckfeet is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply




 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:56.