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Android up, Windows up, Big screens up, iphone down


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Old 19-11-2013, 20:50
calico_pie
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Then you can make the same claim for the s4 or neus 5 or htc one, a simply pathetic claim. I claim that iphones only sell because they have an apple on the back and it is nothing to do with ios. Additionally because they are amongst a few of the only phones with screens so tiny 3.5 and 4 inches they are bought because of this rather than ios.

However you just can't make devices simply equivocal just on price as i pointed out to you earlier. In doing so it does remove a large plus point of android, that being better phones for less money. it has to be a combination of both, sp phones equivocal to the iphone in class.

As mentioned take the iphone 4s which is bottome of the iphone pile. It sells for a ludicrous price of £349.00. More expensive than the s3 generation of phones, which are far far superior. Now you could argue (which you have) that people buying an s3 for say £250 do so because they can't afford the iphone. My contention is that with android you save £100 and get a far superior phone. This is a choice more people make than your claim of "not having money for an iphone".

So the ability to get superior phones for less money is the real benefit of android not simply cost as you would argue.
It's not really about "not being able to afford an iPhone", it's about people either not affording, or just choosing not to spend that much money on any phone.

Put it another way - if every phone on the market was available with either Android or iOS, do you think Android would still have 80% market share?
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Old 19-11-2013, 20:52
Stiggles
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It's not really about "not being able to afford an iPhone", it's about people either not affording, or just choosing not to spend that much money on any phone.

Put it another way - if every phone on the market was available with either Android or iOS, do you think Android would still have 80% market share?
What do you think the ratio would be?
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Old 19-11-2013, 21:20
hotmat3k
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It's not really about "not being able to afford an iPhone", it's about people either not affording, or just choosing not to spend that much money on any phone.

Put it another way - if every phone on the market was available with either Android or iOS, do you think Android would still have 80% market share?
Probably not if iPhone's were more affordable. However, Apple keeps its previous generation phones (now 2 generations back) on sale proves there's a market for a cheaper new iPhone. But people forget Apple continue to sell at the luxury price range because of their USPs which include...

- Direct support from Apple Stores or telephone support. Very beneficial in the first year.
- Phones are always update with the latest firmware for at least 3 generations from the first available on release.
- Larger array of quality applications compare to the rest of the platforms (very subjective - but a key one when they were first to crack the app market)
- Very easy management software via iTunes
- Generally very bespoke designs and obtain a higher quality (subjective on the current design 5/5S design)

Of course people will play the maths to place Android/Windows in favour of iOS. But the hard facts still say that iPhone is in the top two of "singular" handsets against the Galaxy.

If the talk of Samsung forking Android (and branching out it's own dedicated Android platform that would make it slowly fragment the Android market even more and less compatible with Google Play etc), then Google will be in big trouble with it's own devices and platform losing it's biggest partner.

That in itself would play into Apple's favour if it continues to sell more devices each year.

Summarising the OPs post... big whoop.
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Old 19-11-2013, 21:26
calico_pie
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What do you think the ratio would be?
I think it would be a lot closer to 50/50.

What do you think?
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Old 19-11-2013, 21:36
Zack06
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...
- Direct support from Apple Stores or telephone support. Very beneficial in the first year.
- Phones are always update with the latest firmware for at least 3 generations from the first available on release.
- Larger array of quality applications compare to the rest of the platforms (very subjective - but a key one when they were first to crack the app market)
- Very easy management software via iTunes
- Generally very bespoke designs and obtain a higher quality (subjective on the current design 5/5S design)
What you fail to mention is:

- Older iPhones suffer massive and crippling performance hits after upgrading and don't get all the features from the updates. Android devices do.
- Applications are not a strong point for iOS anymore. Both iOS and Android have their own exclusive apps.
- iTunes runs disgustingly on Windows
- The 4/4S cracked and smashed at the smallest drop, plus antenna-gate. The 5/5S scratches extremely easily, especially the black version.

If the talk of Samsung forking Android (and branching out it's own dedicated Android platform that would make it slowly fragment the Android market even more and less compatible with Google Play etc), then Google will be in big trouble with it's own devices and platform losing it's biggest partner.

That in itself would play into Apple's favour if it continues to sell more devices each year.
Samsung is not going to fork Android. They are contractually banned from doing so. Android is getting less fragmented, not more, so your "point" makes no sense and shows no knowledge of the real market conditions.

Summarising the OPs post... big whoop.
Summarising your post.....better luck next time.
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Old 19-11-2013, 21:36
tdenson
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Once again for you....I have no preference.
I really can't believe you are saying that when I quote from your very self in this thread -
"But os wise it has to have the most vile looking and boring os out just now"

If that isn't a preference I don't know what is. You claim impartiality but your whole posting history is laden with vitriolic anti Apple statements. I give up.
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Old 19-11-2013, 21:43
alan1302
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Samsung is not going to fork Android. They are contractually banned from doing so. Android is getting less fragmented, not more, so your "point" makes no sense and shows no knowledge of the real market conditions
Surely Samsung can do what they like with Android as it's open source?
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Old 19-11-2013, 21:45
Zack06
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Surely Samsung can do what they like with Android as it's open source?
They can't do what they like if they want to use Google services.
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Old 19-11-2013, 21:54
jonner101
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What you fail to mention is:

- Older iPhones suffer massive and crippling performance hits after upgrading and don't get all the features from the updates. Android devices do.
- Applications are not a strong point for iOS anymore. Both iOS and Android have their own exclusive apps.
- iTunes runs disgustingly on Windows
- The 4/4S cracked and smashed at the smallest drop, plus antenna-gate. The 5/5S scratches extremely easily, especially the black version.



Samsung is not going to fork Android. They are contractually banned from doing so. Android is getting less fragmented, not more, so your "point" makes no sense and shows no knowledge of the real market conditions.



Summarising your post.....better luck next time.

I understand you have a Nexus 4 which smashes easier, especially the back glass panel( clearly ripped off or inspired by the 4/4s ) than the iPhone 4/4s in my experience.

Bad design in both cases and both these phones need cases to be usable but the Nexus is a bit weaker as it's got a plastic back with the glass panel glued on.
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Old 19-11-2013, 21:58
jonner101
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Surely Samsung can do what they like with Android as it's open source?
There is nothing to stop them going down the Tizen route. It depends on how important google support is.

Google quite happily do iOS apps for maps, hangouts google drive and so on.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:01
Zack06
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I understand you have a Nexus 4 which smashes easier, especially the back glass panel( clearly ripped off or inspired by the 4/4s ) than the iPhone 4/4s in my experience.

Bad design in both cases and both these phones need cases to be usable but the Nexus is a bit weaker as it's got a plastic back with the glass panel glued on.
I have a Nexus 4 with a bumper on which has dropped and not cracked. I know people who had the iPhone 4 crack in their pockets without any extreme force applied. It was a widespread issue. And that's before considering antenna-gate. My Nexus 4 has never had any problems with it's primary function as a telephone.

I quite like the crystal reflection in the back of the Nexus 4, it's unique and gives the device a premium touch. Plus there's no paint to scratch off easily, unlike with the iPhone 5/5S.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:05
hotmat3k
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What you fail to mention is:

- Older iPhones suffer massive and crippling performance hits after upgrading and don't get all the features from the updates. Android devices do.
But not to the point that people throw them away or upgrade them. You only have to see Apple's update rate which is astounding. I'd rather a slightly slower phone than an insecure Android phone that can be out-of-date after a year.

- Applications are not a strong point for iOS anymore. Both iOS and Android have their own exclusive apps.
I said this was subjective and there are pros/cons both ways. Interesting stat recently that Google Play has 25% more downloads but 50% less revenue. Go figure that one as that shows who's willing to pay for apps and there potential quality.

- iTunes runs disgustingly on Windows
How do you mean and what context? That's subjective based on the PC/Laptop specs.

- The 4/4S cracked and smashed at the smallest drop, plus antenna-gate. The 5/5S scratches extremely easily, especially the black version.
4/4S design had to compromise based on glass quality being tougher (being more prone to cracks). 5/5S is the other way but my opinion is that 5/5S is the worst designed iPhone to ever be released.

Samsung is not going to fork Android. They are contractually banned from doing so. Android is getting less fragmented, not more, so your "point" makes no sense and shows no knowledge of the real market conditions.
This is where your knowledge dissipates. Android is an open platform and can be redistributed/recoded at free will (link). Samsung could optionally fork it and make it's own open source code (as long as it stays open). No contract at all, only to play ball by paying for the license to distribute the Google-owned apps. The only thing is that Samsung is part of the Alliance of manufacturers that use the platform to try keep coding practises consistent.

My point was that Samsung could open it's own application store and encourage developers to be "Samsung-only". Initially, they could make the transition easy by not making too many hardware changes and then break away more aggressively. It's time some company cleared up the mess what Google Play is anyway IMHO.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:05
Stiggles
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I really can't believe you are saying that when I quote from your very self in this thread -
"But os wise it has to have the most vile looking and boring os out just now"

If that isn't a preference I don't know what is. You claim impartiality but your whole posting history is laden with vitriolic anti Apple statements. I give up.
Absolute nonsense as always from you.

Vitriolic anti apple? Grow up. This is from someone who continually puts up nonsense posts about how alleged HTC one that never seems to work properly yet never fails to mention that his alleged iPhone works fine ever single time!!!

As for my quote. I said just now. I'm not keen on the look of just now. It workw fine however. Again I have no preference. I'm not like you...
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:12
Zack06
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This is where your knowledge dissipates. Android is an open platform and can be redistributed/recoded at free will (link). Samsung could optionally fork it and make it's own open source code (as long as it stays open). No contract at all, only to play ball by paying for the license to distribute the Google-owned apps. The only thing is that Samsung is part of the Alliance of manufacturers that use the platform to try keep coding practises consistent.

My point was that Samsung could open it's own application store and encourage developers to be "Samsung-only". Initially, they could make the transition easy by not making too many hardware changes and then break away more aggressively. It's time some company cleared up the mess what Google Play is anyway IMHO.
I don't think I'm the one with a deficiency in knowledge on this point. I know very well about Android and its open source nature. But Samsung as a member of the Open Handset Alliance, is not allowed to promote or create a fork as a member. They would have to leave and cut all ties with Google if they wanted to fork Android.

Just look what happened to Acer when they wanted to release a device running an Android fork. Google sued them, and the release of that device was shut down.

Samsung is not Amazon. They do not have the resources to go solo. They maybe testing the waters by launching their own developer conference and experimenting with their side-projects Bada and Tizen, but they know very well that at present, they cannot succeed without Google's approval. Whether they like it or not, at this point Google services add value to Samsung products, so they will not just up and leave as they would certainly struggle.

Perhaps some more research on the Open Handset Alliance and Samsung and Google's positions would have avoided your confusion.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:20
tdenson
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This is from someone who continually puts up nonsense posts about how alleged HTC one that never seems to work properly yet never fails to mention that his alleged iPhone works fine ever single time!!!
I suggest you pay attention sometimes for a change, and could start by reading my posts where I slate the iPhone hotspot for never working reliably. There are many other posts of mine where I criticise Apple products for other reasons. I may be wrong but I can't recall you ever criticising Android.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:23
hotmat3k
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I don't think I'm the one with a deficiency in knowledge on this point. I know very well about Android and its open source nature. But Samsung as a member of the Open Handset Alliance, is not allowed to promote or create a fork as a member. They would have to leave and cut all ties with Google if they wanted to fork Android.

Just look what happened to Acer when they wanted to release a device running an Android fork. Google sued them, and the release of that device was shut down.

Samsung is not Amazon. They do not have the resources to go solo. They maybe testing the waters by launching their own developer conference and experimenting with their side-projects Bada and Tizen, but they know very well that at present, they cannot succeed without Google's approval. Whether they like it or not, at this point Google services add value to Samsung products, so they will not just up and leave as they would certainly struggle.

Perhaps some more research on the Open Handset Alliance and Samsung and Google's positions would have avoided your confusion.
But it's not a contract as you said. It's a commitment to contribute code to the Android system and access to Google's support and apps (optionally as it relies on the base code for apps to work reliably).

Samsung are clearly just as big as Amazon. As a tech-bod, they're much larger and own their own screen and chip fabs. Oh and reading the article, you did twist the facts. Acer had taken on a "non-supported" Android OS line that breaks the Alliance code of practise to always bring code from Google's hub. That's all it was when it was bound to release Android devices with Google's written code.

Nothing stops Samsung to drop out of the Alliance and go forwards with it's own services. This is not a contract sceanario. I'm sure it'll decide if wants to be more cosey with Google (therefore upsetting other manufacturers) or going their own way. I wouldn't be surprised by how bullish Samsung is; it's already developing replacement services. Take a leaf out of Apple's book and pre-plan it's way out of Google's grasp.

I can't help you and your anti-Apple slanted comments.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:26
Stiggles
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I suggest you pay attention sometimes for a change, and could start by reading my posts where I slate the iPhone hotspot for never working reliably. There are many other posts of mine where I criticise Apple products for other reasons. I may be wrong but I can't recall you ever criticising Android.
I suggest you read way back then. I gave my s3 a good slagging as I have with other phones. I have continually agreed androids update rollouts are pitiful and stupid as well as many other things.

Funny thing was, not one person blinked or said a word when I did that. Slag my iPhone when I had it however and I was set upon by a bunch of rabid apple nuts....was unbelievable.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:34
Zack06
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But it's not a contract as you said. It's a commitment to contribute code to the Android system and access to Google's support and apps (optionally as it relies on the base code for apps to work reliably).

Samsung are clearly just as big as Amazon. As a tech-bod, they're much larger and own their own screen and chip fabs. Oh and reading the article, you did twist the facts. Acer had taken on a "non-supported" Android OS line that breaks the Alliance code of practise to always bring code from Google's hub. That's all it was when it was bound to release Android devices with Google's written code.

Nothing stops Samsung to drop out of the Alliance and go forwards with it's own services. This is not a contract sceanario. I'm sure it'll decide if wants to be more cosey with Google (therefore upsetting other manufacturers) or going their own way. I wouldn't be surprised by how bullish Samsung is; it's already developing replacement services. Take a leaf out of Apple's book and pre-plan it's way out of Google's grasp.

I can't help you and your anti-Apple slanted comments.
It is a contract, that's why Google was able to initiate legal proceedings against Acer.

Samsung Electronics is split up into independently run subsidiaries, it isn't really relevant how big the company is as a whole. The mobile division knows that they need Google services as they add value to their devices. Nobody bought Samsung's Bada and Touchwiz OS devices, they were nowhere near as successful as their Android releases.

As for the article, clearly you misread it, Acer was planning on launching a device with Aliyun OS, an Android fork, which is against the binding contract they agreed to when joining the OHA. They violated the contract and Google put a stop to it. I doubt Google would have such definitive powers if there was not a contract involved, it's just common sense.

Nothing is stopping Samsung from leaving just as nothing is stopping someone from jumping off a ship into the sea. Leaving is sometimes not the best idea, especially for Samsung who are set on maintaining their position at the top. They are not prepared for managing their own OS in the way Amazon was. Samsung has never been a software company, they are a hardware company primarily, whereas Amazon has specialised in software solutions for years, which is why their Android fork has been such a success. You can say what you want, but Samsung does not have comparable software resources or expertise to Amazon.

The article I linked sheds a lot of light on this issue, if read properly of course.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:34
hotmat3k
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I suggest you read way back then. I gave my s3 a good slagging as I have with other phones. I have continually agreed androids update rollouts are pitiful and stupid as well as many other things.

Funny thing was, not one person blinked or said a word when I did that. Slag my iPhone when I had it however and I was set upon by a bunch of rabid apple nuts....was unbelievable.
Because the anti-Apple brigade live in every crack of the Internet possible where it's a tech forum or commentable posts.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:46
hotmat3k
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It is a contract, that's why Google was able to initiate legal proceedings against Acer.
But you still twist the facts in favour of your argument. :sleep: All Acer did was break its rule of keeping in alignment of Google's own code on it's own device.

Samsung Electronics is split up into independently run subsidiaries, it isn't really relevant how big the company is as a whole. The mobile division knows that they need Google services as they add value to their devices. Nobody bought Samsung's Bada and Touchwiz OS devices, they were nowhere near as successful as their Android releases.
So you think Samsung create the hardware, dump on Android and hope for the best? That's not how it works. Samsung still need to develop drivers, compatible support apps, create/maintain their own own home screen. That's still major development work that now they have experience of the main Android OS code; maintaining their own wouldnt be too difficult. Bada/Touchwiz are not Android devices and don't have the backing of a major player like Google with their crazy advertising of their software services.

As for the article, clearly you misread it, Acer was planning on launching a device with Aliyun OS, an Android fork, which is against the binding contract they agreed to when joining the OHA. They violated the contract and Google put a stop to it. I doubt Google would have such definitive powers if there was not a contract involved, it's just common sense.
I already knew this. You just continue to twist and ignore my response because you can't defend your point on Samsung not leaving the OHA. It's a null point anyway and wasn't even suggesting Samsung would break it's agreement with the success of the Galaxy devices. Negative press on them would be lethal.

Nothing is stopping Samsung from leaving just as nothing is stopping someone from jumping off a ship into the sea. Leaving is sometimes not the best idea, especially for Samsung who are set on maintaining their position at the top. They are not prepared for managing their own OS in the way Amazon was. Samsung has never been a software company, they are a hardware company primarily, whereas Amazon has specialised in software solutions for years, which is why their Android fork has been such a success. You can say what you want, but Samsung does not have comparable software resources or expertise to Amazon.

The article I linked sheds a lot of light on this issue, if read properly of course.
As I said, Samsung are possibly getting ready to jump ship with the start of the developer conference.

Anyway, we're going well off track here. Again, Samsung have a chance to fragment the market (with the poor performances of Blackberry of late) and add more competition.

Another point... Apple's consistency of the iPhone/iPad/iOS products has kept it up in the top two. It plays to it's own advantages.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:56
jonner101
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I have a Nexus 4 with a bumper on which has dropped and not cracked. I know people who had the iPhone 4 crack in their pockets without any extreme force applied. It was a widespread issue. And that's before considering antenna-gate. My Nexus 4 has never had any problems with it's primary function as a telephone.

I quite like the crystal reflection in the back of the Nexus 4, it's unique and gives the device a premium touch. Plus there's no paint to scratch off easily, unlike with the iPhone 5/5S.
Erm well yes that is what the bumper is for to absorb the damage. The issue with the plastic back of the nexus 4 is that if it flexes it will almost certainly crack the glued on glass on the back.

We are all big nexus 4 fans in our office but 50% of them have had to have the glass repaired( luckily a relatively cheap easy DIY job ) . Our sales and support people have freebee iPhone 4s's and none of them broke in the same period.
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Old 19-11-2013, 23:09
jonner101
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But you still twist the facts in favour of your argument. :sleep: All Acer did was break its rule of keeping in alignment of Google's own code on it's own device.


So you think Samsung create the hardware, dump on Android and hope for the best? That's not how it works. Samsung still need to develop drivers, compatible support apps, create/maintain their own own home screen. That's still major development work that now they have experience of the main Android OS code; maintaining their own wouldnt be too difficult. Bada/Touchwiz are not Android devices and don't have the backing of a major player like Google with their crazy advertising of their software services.


I already knew this. You just continue to twist and ignore my response because you can't defend your point on Samsung not leaving the OHA. It's a null point anyway and wasn't even suggesting Samsung would break it's agreement with the success of the Galaxy devices. Negative press on them would be lethal.


As I said, Samsung are possibly getting ready to jump ship with the start of the developer conference.

Anyway, we're going well off track here. Again, Samsung have a chance to fragment the market (with the poor performances of Blackberry of late) and add more competition.

Another point... Apple's consistency of the iPhone/iPad/iOS products has kept it up in the top two. It plays to it's own advantages.
Samsung definitely wan't to control the software and hardware. You never see them mention Android in their marketing.

The S2 was very much based on the original iPhone in terms of look and marketing and they took it one step further with the S3 which was given a catchy name had a stylish look and marketed very very well. They also saw the gap in the market for the bigger screen device.

From a technical point of view with 100% control they could eliminate the lag that you get, even on their premium devices.

Will Google play along?. Well they did with Apple in the end. Google is a software services provider primarily so if there were 200 million devices with Tizen they will make their stuff available for Tizen.

Interesting to note that a lot of helper libraries such as cocos-2d have Tizen versions around now.
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Old 19-11-2013, 23:24
Zack06
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You just continue to twist and ignore my response because you can't defend your point on Samsung not leaving the OHA
I don't need to. You did it for me.

Bada/Touchwiz are not Android devices and don't have the backing of a major player like Google with their crazy advertising of their software services.
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Old 19-11-2013, 23:28
Stiggles
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Because the anti-Apple brigade live in every crack of the Internet possible where it's a tech forum or commentable posts.
What's that got to do with me getting a hard time from apple fans about me not happy with something on my iPhone?...
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Old 20-11-2013, 13:06
alan1302
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Samsung is not Amazon. They do not have the resources to go solo. They maybe testing the waters by launching their own developer conference and experimenting with their side-projects Bada and Tizen, but they know very well that at present, they cannot succeed without Google's approval. Whether they like it or not, at this point Google services add value to Samsung products, so they will not just up and leave as they would certainly struggle.
Why do you think Samsung, one of the worlds largest electronics companies, does not have the resources to go solo when as we know Amazon have been able to?

Also why even bother with Tizen if they need Google to succeed?
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