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Android up, Windows up, Big screens up, iphone down
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tdenson
14-11-2013
Originally Posted by Zack06:
“It's been said that the 5C only exists because the profit margin is improved over the 5. Shame it backfired.

It's also easy to forget that Apple had an at least a year and a half head start over Android, so when that is considered, it just makes Android's market performance all the more impressive.”

Much easier to copy than innovate
Zack06
14-11-2013
Originally Posted by tdenson:
“Much easier to copy than innovate”

I agree. It's a shame Apple adopted that policy, but when the chips are down, you have to survive I suppose.
swordman
15-11-2013
CP had a chance to think about your

"66% of all android phones cost less than £139 yet"

have you been able to find any support for your theory? Does make you wonder how Samsung made record profits this quarter.

Especially as the s4 has sold over 60 million in six months around 30 million a quarter. That equates to around 15% of the Android market a quarter. Once you add that to the 25% phablet sales and your 66% you seem to get 106%. This doesn't obviously include any other phone over your £139, just doesn't seem to make any sense

Perhaps you can shed some light on this, maybe TUAW has some figures for you
swordman
15-11-2013
Anyway it is fascinating the huge rise in large screens in a year. I wonder how long apple can avoid the inevitable or are they content to continue to lose market share and profits.

If they did decide to go large could they still possibly keep it non HD to keep their double app earner.
Stiggles
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by calico_pie:
“It does, which is why I find it strange that swordsman disagreed, and stiggles seemed to think everyone disagreed.


”

I am disagreeing with your numbers here. One country you have shown. If we had numbers for every country and they said the same i would agree with you.
Stiggles
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by swordman:
“Anyway it is fascinating the huge rise in large screens in a year. I wonder how long apple can avoid the inevitable or are they content to continue to lose market share and profits.

If they did decide to go large could they still possibly keep it non HD to keep their double app earner.”

iPhone 6 will be 4-5" screen and come with NFC...

/runs
IslandNiles
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by swordman:
“CP had a chance to think about your

"66% of all android phones cost less than £139 yet"

have you been able to find any support for your theory? Does make you wonder how Samsung made record profits this quarter.

Especially as the s4 has sold over 60 million in six months around 30 million a quarter. That equates to around 15% of the Android market a quarter. Once you add that to the 25% phablet sales and your 66% you seem to get 106%. This doesn't obviously include any other phone over your £139, just doesn't seem to make any sense

Perhaps you can shed some light on this, maybe TUAW has some figures for you ”

I think you mean 40 million as of October, not 60 million. So, using crude figures like you did, that's 20 million a quarter and actually more like 9.6% I the Android market. Then those phablets, which were 21% of the total smartphone market according to the article. So that's 54.8 million, assuming they were all Android. So, if the Android shipments in Q3 were 211.8m, that still leaves 137 million shipments unaccounted for. We know that the Galaxy S4 is the biggest selling high end Android phone by far. So how many of those 137 million shipments do you think we're high end phones?
tdenson
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by Stiggles:
“iPhone 6 will be 4-5" screen and come with NFC...

/runs ”

No need to run I agree with the first, not so sure about the second
calico_pie
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by swordman:
“CP had a chance to think about your

"66% of all android phones cost less than £139 yet"

have you been able to find any support for your theory? Does make you wonder how Samsung made record profits this quarter.

Especially as the s4 has sold over 60 million in six months around 30 million a quarter. That equates to around 15% of the Android market a quarter. Once you add that to the 25% phablet sales and your 66% you seem to get 106%. This doesn't obviously include any other phone over your £139, just doesn't seem to make any sense

Perhaps you can shed some light on this, maybe TUAW has some figures for you ”

That's a great figure.

How many smartphones are they selling in total?

Something like 90m a quarter isn't it?

This isn't rocket science - as a general rule, the more expensive the model, the fewer people people there will be buying it.

And as I've said above, which has largely been ignored, is evident by the fact that Android's share of revenue and profit is far lower than its market share.

Obviously because a significant number of Android devices are lower cost / lower margin devices.

Its pretty simple arithmetic.
calico_pie
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by Stiggles:
“I am disagreeing with your numbers here. One country you have shown. If we had numbers for every country and they said the same i would agree with you.”

The numbers in question are:

1. The total number of devices sold.
2. The number of expensive high end devices sold.

Clearly the former will be greater than the later. Swordman even managed to disagree with that. And then you said everyone disagreed with it.

I am still impressed with your authority to speak for everyone though, when really what "everyone" usually means is you plus one or two other people.

Its funny how for that sort of thing you're happy with such a small sample, but for anything else you need to know every figure.
swordman
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by IslandNiles:
“I think you mean 40 million as of October, not 60 million. So, using crude figures like you did, that's 20 million a quarter and actually more like 9.6% I the Android market. Then those phablets, which were 21% of the total smartphone market according to the article. So that's 54.8 million, assuming they were all Android. So, if the Android shipments in Q3 were 211.8m, that still leaves 137 million shipments unaccounted for. We know that the Galaxy S4 is the biggest selling high end Android phone by far. So how many of those 137 million shipments do you think we're high end phones?”

Yes I do mean 40. However I think it safe to assume all those phablets were android at least to not make a difference. So it is 21% of all sales, that equates to around 25% of android sales. So add that to your 10% s4 sales and CP's crazy claim and we have 101%.

Numbers are irrelevant as I am not making the crazy claim that 66% (2 of every 3) of all android phones sold cost less than £139. Are you claiming that CP is right in this claim?

As you can tell from above the is no room left to account for phones such as the s3, HTC one, HTC mini, s3 and s4 mini, Sony xp and t, the ace 2 and 3, HTC one X I could go on and on.

The laughable thing is you claim my figures are crude but the apple insider figures used in incorrectly by CP are fine are they
calico_pie
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by swordman:
“Yes I do mean 40. However I think it safe to assume all those phablets were android at least to not make a difference. So it is 21% of all sales, that equates to around 25% of android sales. So add that to your 10% s4 sales and CP's crazy claim and we have 101%.

Numbers are irrelevant as I am not making the crazy claim that 66% (2 of every 3) of all android phones sold cost less than £139. Are you claiming that CP is right in this claim?

As you can tell from above the is no room left to account for phones such as the s3, HTC one, HTC mini, s3 and s4 mini, Sony xp and t, the ace 2 and 3, HTC one X I could go on and on.

The laughable thing is you claim my figures are crude but the apple insider figures used in incorrectly by CP are fine are they ”

Is there a reason you still adding in phablet sales when the figures specifically excluded them?
Stuart_h
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by tdenson:
“C'mon, what a naive statement. Tell me a manufacturer who takes less profit than he could !!!!”

No. You misunderstand my comment. The hardware in an iPhone is (these days) fairly mid-range. The screens are small and lower res. The chips are fewer cores. The camera units arent top end. On the 5c they have even returned to plastic.

There doesnt seem to be any part of the iPhone that screams 'top spec' (IMHO). Im not saying that this makes the phone awful or slow (iOS seems to run very well on the kit) but other phones have surpassed the hardware in the iPhone. There are phones with 40mp cameras, there are big HD screens, there are 8 core chips, there are metal unibodies, there are bigger batteries etc etc.

iPhones no longer lead the market from a hardware perspective.

Apple do, however, take a notoriously high profit margin from their phones. This is fairly well documented.

This is therefore where their profit comes from. They dont go for the full 'spec' battle with other handset makers and they add a considerable 'wedge' on top for profit.

Its obviously not a bad way of working for Apple as they make huge profits. They have priced their products at a point that they know a percentage of the population are willing to pay.

That was the point I was making.

And with regards to the 'slum factories' things are improving but Apple have not had a good recent history for the conditions that those producing the handsets have to work in.

.... and yes I know that other manufacturers also use the same firms and I dont approve of them either, but with billions in the bank a few % less profit might just make life more bearable for many people involved in building your new iPhone.

All this doesnt seem to bother some people. And thats fine, entirely up to the individual.

All my opinion only - im sure many will disagree.
calico_pie
15-11-2013
I think you're confusing "spec" with "quality".

For example, the camera on the 5S doesn't have the highest MP count. And yet the consensus from reviews is that it more than makes up for that in other factors, and is one of the very best smartphone cameras on the market.

Similarly the A7 chip may have fewer cores, and yet seems to outperform other chips with more cores.
swordman
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by calico_pie:
“Is there a reason you still adding in phablet sales when the figures specifically excluded them?”

You clearly have no idea what is being discussed, in the same way as you have no idea about the figures you quoted previously. Seriously stop now
Stuart_h
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by calico_pie:
“I think you're confusing "spec" with "quality".

For example, the camera on the 5S doesn't have the highest MP count. And yet the consensus from reviews is that it more than makes up for that in other factors, and is one of the very best smartphone cameras on the market.

Similarly the A7 chip may have fewer cores, and yet seems to outperform other chips with more cores.”

No. Confusing nothing. I clearly stated that iOS worked quite happily on the spec chosen by Apple. My point (that you seem to have missed) is that, based on the money being spent, there is little on an iPhone that, on paper, would be referred to as 'class leading'.

I thought I had been quite clear but .....
calico_pie
15-11-2013
There probably isn't much point in arguing the toss over the exact figures, as they will only ever be estimates based on a particular set of (hopefully reasonable) assumptions.

But the underlying point still stands - the main reasons Android's market share is so high are:

1. Android devices are available across a much wider range of price points.

2. Android devices are available in much wider range of brands, designs and sizes.

Or are you even going to disagree with that?
calico_pie
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by Stuart_h:
“No. Confusing nothing. I clearly stated that iOS worked quite happily on the spec chosen by Apple. My point (that you seem to have missed) is that, based on the money being spent, there is little on an iPhone that, on paper, would be referred to as 'class leading'.

I thought I had been quite clear but .....”

You say that, and yet the iPhone outperforms other devices despite apparently being inferior.
Anika Hanson
15-11-2013
Another iOS vs android thread, just another title. I don't see why we can't just have an iOS vs android sticky thread
swordman
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by calico_pie:
“There probably isn't much point in arguing the toss over the exact figures, as they will only ever be estimates based on a particular set of (hopefully reasonable) assumptions.

But the underlying point still stands - the main reasons Android's market share is so high are:

1. Android devices are available across a much wider range of price points.

2. Android devices are available in much wider range of brands, designs and sizes.

Or are you even going to disagree with that?”

Of course the is no point as clearly you realise that your 66% is absolute nonsense and why you have not been able to quantify it since you made it.

As for your other points they are prefectly valid reasons why android is so successful but your claim they are the main reasons is unlikely.

I would be certain that many more top end android phones are sold than low end. I quantify top end by matching then up to say equivalent iPhones on sale over the last year. As the same phones of equivalent levels equating to "top end" could have been chosen from BB or WP or Apple but haven't been, I am confident android has been preferred.
finbaar
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by Anika Hanson:
“Another iOS vs android thread, just another title. I don't see why we can't just have an iOS vs android sticky thread”

How about a sub forum for silly fights by people who nothing about mobile phones. Then they could play there.
Stuart_h
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by calico_pie:
“You say that, and yet the iPhone outperforms other devices despite apparently being inferior.”

Not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or are a little slow.

I have clearly said that iOS works well on its current spec.
I have not said that the Apple experience is inferior.

What I have said is that the current iPhones are not using top-spec hardware (in general). Im not saying any one phone out there is using ALL top spec hardware.

Screen - bigger out there, higher resolution out there.
Battery - bigger batteries in use
Camera - Higher mp cameras, better sensors
Memory - equivalent storage out there - much more if you allow for SD card
Chip - grey area ? more cores out there but im happy to concede that Apple have just gone a different route.
Stiggles
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by calico_pie:
“The numbers in question are:

1. The total number of devices sold.
2. The number of expensive high end devices sold.

Clearly the former will be greater than the later. Swordman even managed to disagree with that. And then you said everyone disagreed with it.

I am still impressed with your authority to speak for everyone though, when really what "everyone" usually means is you plus one or two other people.

Its funny how for that sort of thing you're happy with such a small sample, but for anything else you need to know every figure.”

Your figures are for 1 area yes? Right, those figures DO NOT apply for the entire planet. Every country sells devices at a different rate. Some are more popular than others.

That's what i am disagreeing with...
Stiggles
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by calico_pie:
“You say that, and yet the iPhone outperforms other devices despite apparently being inferior.”

Does it? I still haven't seen one thing the iphone 5S can do that's quicker than say an S4, or a Nexus 5.

As i have always maintained, benchmarks mean absolutely nothing between 2 completely different operating systems.

Anyway, the inferior bit for me on an iphone is iOS. Truly awful to look at.
calico_pie
15-11-2013
Originally Posted by Stuart_h:
“Not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or are a little slow.

I have clearly said that iOS works well on its current spec.
I have not said that the Apple experience is inferior.

What I have said is that the current iPhones are not using top-spec hardware (in general). Im not saying any one phone out there is using ALL top spec hardware.

Screen - bigger out there, higher resolution out there.
Battery - bigger batteries in use
Camera - Higher mp cameras, better sensors
Memory - equivalent storage out there - much more if you allow for SD card
Chip - grey area ? more cores out there but im happy to concede that Apple have just gone a different route.”

I wasn't being obtuse, but if there was any confusion, it may have been that I took "hardware" to mean the actual phone.

Rather than the individual components.

Bigger isn't necessarily better though.

And a higher MP camera won't necessarily result in a better camera.

And more cores won't necessarily make a faster processor.
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