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Old 18-11-2013, 21:25
Andy_Gbo
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Hi,

Just re-watching Pandorica Opens/Big Bang.
I was wondering, was it ever explained who it was who said 'Silence will fall' in the TARDIS?

And if it hasn't been explained, do you think it ever will be?
Theories anyone ?
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Old 18-11-2013, 21:36
Abomination
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It hasn't been officially explained, no, but I believe we are to have taken it as the voice of the Silence.

I heard somewhere that the voice of the Silents in Series 6 wasn't decided upon at this point in Series 5, and so they just used this instead - ironically, I prefer this voice

I doubt we'll ever get it explained, but then this upcoming Christmas Special seems to be about tying loose ends together so we may yet see
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Old 18-11-2013, 22:03
Piipp
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I'd always taken it that it had never been explained BUT it was referenced a lot in the Greatest Monsters and Villians episode featuring the Silence/Silents/whatexactlyaretheycalled? shown on BBC3 at the weekend and it seemed to point towards them saying it. Having said that Moffat has come out and said that we're still to learn who blew the TARDIS up and I always thought the two were linked. I hope Moffat ties up all the loose 11 ends at Christmas. :l
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Old 18-11-2013, 22:19
Banks246
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They aren't called silence are they? It's just a religious order of sorts isn't it?
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Old 18-11-2013, 22:21
Corwin
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They aren't called silence are they? It's just a religious order of sorts isn't it?
The Creatures that make you forget them are called Silents.


They are part of a Religious Order called The Silence.
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Old 18-11-2013, 22:44
Sh'boobie
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Why would the Silence (whose sole motive is to kill the Doctor), board the Tardis when the Doctor's not even on board - spookily foretell their own doom over the tannoy (minus their hallmark breathing rattle) - then blow the Tardis up while they're still on it?

This is crazy troll logic.

If this is the general concenus, then y'all are nuts.
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Old 18-11-2013, 22:51
Abomination
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Why would the Silence (whose sole motive is to kill the Doctor), board the Tardis when the Doctor's not even on board - spookily foretell their own doom over the tannoy (minus their hallmark breathing rattle) - then blow the Tardis up while they're still on it?

This is crazy troll logic.

If this is the general concenus, then y'all are nuts.
It is the core belief of the religious order known as the Silence that Silence will fall when the question is asked. That the Doctor mustn't reach Trenzalore.
As Dorium stated, a more correct translation of the prophetic phrase is that 'silence must fall' when the question is asked'. The silence that must fall isn't that of the religion, it's that of The Doctor.

As it stands, the plot to kill The Doctor at Lake Silencio was one plan from The Silence to stop him from ever reaching Trenzalore. But I think the general consensus is that before this happened, the plan was to seal The Doctor in the Pandorica and destroy the TARDIS once and for all. Both this plan, and the Lake Silencio plot failed and the Doctor made it to Trenzalore. We don't yet know why The Silence never wanted the Doctor to make it there, but we're likely to find out soon...perhaps it's to do with the 'endless, bitter war' that Madame Kovarian mentioned.

So, put as simply as possible...
Who are the Silence?
The Silence are a religious order whose core belief is that silence must fall when the question is asked.

Who are the Silents?
The Silents are alien beings who have been shaping humanity for centuries. They are strongly affiliated with the religious movement known as The Silence.

Whose silence must fall?
The Silence religion believes that The Doctor's silence must fall when the question (Doctor Who?) is asked at Trenzalore. To make silence fall, they plot to remove The Doctor altogether, presumably blowing up the TARDIS as one attempt, and killing him in Utah as another.

Why must silence fall?
Silence must fall to prevent the question being answered, only the question is answered and it opens The Doctor's tomb...paving the way for the events we're about to see in The Day of the Doctor. Whatever is coming, the Silence religion didn't want it.

No matter what, I really think Moffat has made things needlessly complicated by having Silents and The Silence as two separate entities that are associated... it needed better explaining in-series.
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Old 19-11-2013, 23:53
kyllerbuzcut
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Why would the Silence (whose sole motive is to kill the Doctor), board the Tardis when the Doctor's not even on board - spookily foretell their own doom over the tannoy (minus their hallmark breathing rattle) - then blow the Tardis up while they're still on it?

This is crazy troll logic.

If this is the general concenus, then y'all are nuts.

Hehe. good one. I believe the tardis blew up due to the doctor being put in the pandorica and removed from the universe.... Caused a paradox due to the large parts of the universe which only exist because the doc and tardis saved them. The tardis cannot exist without the doctor. Their existence is woven together throughout time. If there was no doctor then how could the tardis be there? It shouldn't exist. When it finally exploded from this paradox it created the cracks which spread out in a shockwave from that point in time.
That part explains how it exploded because you are dead right. No one went to all the trouble of getting in and blowing it up when they could have just killed him or imprisoned him if they were able to do all that.
So. The question is not who blew up the tardis, but should be "who made all the alliance members believe the doc made the cracks, and arranged for him to be put in the pandorica." That is something the silence were certainly capable of.

I also think the tannoy announcement was just the tardis receiving and playing back a message. Partly that and partly doubling up as a kind of narrator comment for the audience
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Old 20-11-2013, 00:34
ShootyDogThing
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It is the core belief of the religious order known as the Silence that Silence will fall when the question is asked. That the Doctor mustn't reach Trenzalore.
As Dorium stated, a more correct translation of the prophetic phrase is that 'silence must fall' when the question is asked'. The silence that must fall isn't that of the religion, it's that of The Doctor.

As it stands, the plot to kill The Doctor at Lake Silencio was one plan from The Silence to stop him from ever reaching Trenzalore. But I think the general consensus is that before this happened, the plan was to seal The Doctor in the Pandorica and destroy the TARDIS once and for all. Both this plan, and the Lake Silencio plot failed and the Doctor made it to Trenzalore. We don't yet know why The Silence never wanted the Doctor to make it there, but we're likely to find out soon...perhaps it's to do with the 'endless, bitter war' that Madame Kovarian mentioned.

So, put as simply as possible...
Who are the Silence?
The Silence are a religious order whose core belief is that silence must fall when the question is asked.

Who are the Silents?
The Silents are alien beings who have been shaping humanity for centuries. They are strongly affiliated with the religious movement known as The Silence.

Whose silence must fall?
The Silence religion believes that The Doctor's silence must fall when the question (Doctor Who?) is asked at Trenzalore. To make silence fall, they plot to remove The Doctor altogether, presumably blowing up the TARDIS as one attempt, and killing him in Utah as another.

Why must silence fall?
Silence must fall to prevent the question being answered, only the question is answered and it opens The Doctor's tomb...paving the way for the events we're about to see in The Day of the Doctor. Whatever is coming, the Silence religion didn't want it.

No matter what, I really think Moffat has made things needlessly complicated by having Silents and The Silence as two separate entities that are associated... it needed better explaining in-series.
The way I interpreted it was that they didn't want the Great Intelligence to access the Doctor's tomb, because all the worlds the Doctor's saved would be erased (as shown by the stars going out in the episode), but they didn't count on Clara. Could be either though I suppose, maybe we'll have some clarity at Christmas.
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Old 20-11-2013, 11:20
sebbie3000
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Why would the Silence (whose sole motive is to kill the Doctor), board the Tardis when the Doctor's not even on board - spookily foretell their own doom over the tannoy (minus their hallmark breathing rattle) - then blow the Tardis up while they're still on it?

This is crazy troll logic.

If this is the general concenus, then y'all are nuts.
Hehe. good one. I believe the tardis blew up due to the doctor being put in the pandorica and removed from the universe.... Caused a paradox due to the large parts of the universe which only exist because the doc and tardis saved them. The tardis cannot exist without the doctor. Their existence is woven together throughout time. If there was no doctor then how could the tardis be there? It shouldn't exist. When it finally exploded from this paradox it created the cracks which spread out in a shockwave from that point in time.
That part explains how it exploded because you are dead right. No one went to all the trouble of getting in and blowing it up when they could have just killed him or imprisoned him if they were able to do all that.
So. The question is not who blew up the tardis, but should be "who made all the alliance members believe the doc made the cracks, and arranged for him to be put in the pandorica." That is something the silence were certainly capable of.

I also think the tannoy announcement was just the tardis receiving and playing back a message. Partly that and partly doubling up as a kind of narrator comment for the audience
Sadly, you are both (as it stands right now) wrong! The TARDIS was blown up, and it was blown up by the Silence.
The Silence, the unseen enemy who blew up his Tardis last year, have laid deeper plans and set the deadliest trap of all - one that has been ticking away in the Doctor's life for longer than anyone knows.
Whether it has been clarified entirely on screen, the showrunner whose idea it was is still in charge. If he leaves without explaining it fully (even though it has been heavily implied), then the oulandish theories can begin in earnest - obviously except for the daft theory that the TARDIS exploded due to the Doctor being out of the universe... He wasn't until the actual explosion - to heal the cracks, of course, not cause them. To get that theory, one has to ignore the facts as presented on screen, as they in no way allow any credibility to it! No paradox was created by the Doctor being put into the Pandorica, quite the opposite - it allowed the Doctor to be alive in the universe indefinitely.

And besides, why would the Silence need to be in the TARDIS when it explodes? Get in, put something in there that will allow them to control the TARDIS when they need to, then get out. They can do it any time they like, as they are forgotten as soon as they leave one's line of sight.
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Old 20-11-2013, 11:28
MidnightFalcon
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Hi,

Just re-watching Pandorica Opens/Big Bang.
I was wondering, was it ever explained who it was who said 'Silence will fall' in the TARDIS?

And if it hasn't been explained, do you think it ever will be?
Theories anyone ?
The Dream Lord AKA The Valyard who is due to put in an appearance between the Doctors "twelfth and final incarnations".

IE now.
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Old 20-11-2013, 14:53
kyllerbuzcut
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Sadly, you are both (as it stands right now) wrong! The TARDIS was blown up, and it was blown up by the Silence.


Whether it has been clarified entirely on screen, the showrunner whose idea it was is still in charge. If he leaves without explaining it fully (even though it has been heavily implied), then the oulandish theories can begin in earnest - obviously except for the daft theory that the TARDIS exploded due to the Doctor being out of the universe... He wasn't until the actual explosion - to heal the cracks, of course, not cause them. To get that theory, one has to ignore the facts as presented on screen, as they in no way allow any credibility to it! No paradox was created by the Doctor being put into the Pandorica, quite the opposite - it allowed the Doctor to be alive in the universe indefinitely.

And besides, why would the Silence need to be in the TARDIS when it explodes? Get in, put something in there that will allow them to control the TARDIS when they need to, then get out. They can do it any time they like, as they are forgotten as soon as they leave one's line of sight.

"the unseen enemy that blew up the tardis" doesn't say "by sneaking in" etc. Because that is just ludicrous. I thought it was pretty obvious the tardis explosion is what caused all the cracks to appear as the universe disappeared through them, bit by bit. Leaving in the end only the eye of the storm as the last bit to go. The exact mechanism of it going like that might be in dispute, but the most likely way for me is that 'outside events' led this to happen, ratger than something inside the tardis itself.
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Old 20-11-2013, 16:31
sebbie3000
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"the unseen enemy that blew up the tardis" doesn't say "by sneaking in" etc. Because that is just ludicrous. I thought it was pretty obvious the tardis explosion is what caused all the cracks to appear as the universe disappeared through them, bit by bit. Leaving in the end only the eye of the storm as the last bit to go. The exact mechanism of it going like that might be in dispute, but the most likely way for me is that 'outside events' led this to happen, ratger than something inside the tardis itself.
BIB has never been a disagrement point. Of course that's what caused the cracks! I don't know from where you would get that I don't think that?

Why is it ludicrous that the Silence would be sneaking in? Their very defense mechanism is a form of sneaking around, implanting suggestions in the people around them. The whole point of the Silence (race, not cult) is that they are sneaks, and they sneak around...

And it was being controlled by an outside force - that was said, on screen, by River.
RIVER: Someone else is flying it. An external force. I've lost control.
But how did that external force gain control? Is it beyond the realms of what was readily established and further expanded upon later that a race who evolved to be able to sneak around wherever they want and plant suggestions in the heads of those around them, would sneak into the TARDIS to either suggest to a member of the TARDIS crew that they should switch something to allow it to be controlled externally by remote? Or that they might plant something safe in the knowledge that their very existence would be forgotten as soon as they left line of sight?
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Old 22-11-2013, 00:13
kyllerbuzcut
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BIB has never been a disagrement point. Of course that's what caused the cracks! I don't know from where you would get that I don't think that?

Why is it ludicrous that the Silence would be sneaking in? Their very defense mechanism is a form of sneaking around, implanting suggestions in the people around them. The whole point of the Silence (race, not cult) is that they are sneaks, and they sneak around...

And it was being controlled by an outside force - that was said, on screen, by River.
But how did that external force gain control? Is it beyond the realms of what was readily established and further expanded upon later that a race who evolved to be able to sneak around wherever they want and plant suggestions in the heads of those around them, would sneak into the TARDIS to either suggest to a member of the TARDIS crew that they should switch something to allow it to be controlled externally by remote? Or that they might plant something safe in the knowledge that their very existence would be forgotten as soon as they left line of sight?
You do make a good point about the silence, but if they had accomplished the sabotage of the tardis then there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to go to the lengths they did to put the doctor in a box to be sealed off from everything. (then later-or perhaps even earlier for them- make sure River becomes theirs to raise, and brainwash as their assassin). It should have been as easy as saying "hey doc, walk into this box for me". The tardis may also have been able to detect them (maybe, maybe not).

I do apologise if you thought I was putting words in your mouth about the explosion not causing the cracks. That was just all part of my story about the lead up to what caused the explosion. A lot of people do say it must have been a saboteur inside the tardis, but it just does not fit one bit for me (and a lot of others).

I was thinking about this yesterday again (I think it shows what great stuff this all is, that I and others are still thinking about and talking about plot points years later). Anyway, I thought about the film Donnie Darko. I think the same 'model' can be applied here. In the film a part of a plane crashes into his house. He would have died, but something 'made' him get up out of bed and walk outside. Long story shorter, he ends up being the cause of some universe ending paradox type stuff going on, and as he is supposed to be dead, he knows he has to stop himself going outside back when the plane part hit the house. The paradox causes storms which trap a plane in some kind of vortex. This causes the plane to break up and a part goes back through time to land on his house killing him. He dies sort of happy and laughing, knowing he saved everything.

The Tardis Explosion is the same kind of loop going on. It ends up exploding and causing the cracks because it has to. The doctor wouldn't have gone through the series5 adventures, Which lead to this happening, without the cracks in the first place.

On screen I think it was said it was as if it was being controlled by an outside force. Later the doctor also said the Tardis had put itself into a loop, which had trapped River. This also all happened after the doctor was first put in the pandorica. Same as all the stars disappearing the very moment he first went in there. This is the moment the cracks are created. It doesn't matter what time an observer happens to be in, the cracks happen all across the universe. The 'when' part is irrelevant because we are dealing with cracks in tine as well as space. It happens every-when as well as everywhere. The centre gets protected by the tardis as it tries to hold on, protecting Earth, where the doctor is in the pandorica, for as long as it can, before the pre ordained explosion, meanwhile the universe gets less and less as it disappears through the cracks, different 'times' at different times, leaving only those at the eye of the storm left. A storm which happens when pandorica meets tardis at precisely the right tine, both the resulting cause of the Tardis exploding, and causing the cracks to appear, which suck everything through to be rebuilt in the 'new universe' the same explosion also helps to bring about.

I've seen it said this falls down because that is not what the pandorica does. OK nobody knows what it does really, or doesnt do either. And even if it does not do exactly what I said then everything is still valid. The pandorica is still part of the explosion when the doctor flies into it at the right moment.
(Although I think the moment the stars go out is the biggest clue as to what is happening the moment he
Gets sealed inside. At the same time the tardis throws itself into a loop to try and prevent itself exploding for as long as possible). All that is required is to move the magnifying glass backwards
another step to ask who made it/gave it to the alliance and persuaded them the doc caused the cracks, and be should be put in the 'magic box' to stop the tardis exploding, (when they really wanted the tardis to explode).WHO was that. The silence seem to be the culprits, but their motives for wanting this to happen have not fully come out yet.

PS sorry for going on so long. This kind of stuff really gets me thinking. I do enjoy a good story that keeps you thinking long afterwards
Plus. Typing on my mobile at the moment too, so sorry for any poor grammar or spelling.
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Old 22-11-2013, 00:51
johnnysaucepn
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You do make a good point about the silence, but if they had accomplished the sabotage of the tardis then there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to go to the lengths they did to put the doctor in a box to be sealed off from everything.
They didn't. The Alliance did. That was an act of a group of species banding together in a mistaken attempt to save themselves.

The stars going out are not because of the Pandorica at all, it's because of the process that has already started and is ongoing long 'before' the Doctor has even a whiff of what the Pandorica is.

I've seen it said this falls down because that is not what the pandorica does. OK nobody knows what it does really, or doesnt do either. And even if it does not do exactly what I said then everything is still valid. The pandorica is still part of the explosion when the doctor flies into it at the right moment.
The Pandorica does whatever the scriptwriters tell us it does. It does not remove anyone from time and space, and it does not cause things to explode. It's very clear (and the dialogue makes it specific) that the one thing the Pandorica is best at is preserving things exactly as they are.
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Old 22-11-2013, 10:44
sebbie3000
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You do make a good point about the silence, but if they had accomplished the sabotage of the tardis then there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to go to the lengths they did to put the doctor in a box to be sealed off from everything. (then later-or perhaps even earlier for them- make sure River becomes theirs to raise, and brainwash as their assassin). It should have been as easy as saying "hey doc, walk into this box for me". The tardis may also have been able to detect them (maybe, maybe not).

I do apologise if you thought I was putting words in your mouth about the explosion not causing the cracks. That was just all part of my story about the lead up to what caused the explosion. A lot of people do say it must have been a saboteur inside the tardis, but it just does not fit one bit for me (and a lot of others).

I was thinking about this yesterday again (I think it shows what great stuff this all is, that I and others are still thinking about and talking about plot points years later). Anyway, I thought about the film Donnie Darko. I think the same 'model' can be applied here. In the film a part of a plane crashes into his house. He would have died, but something 'made' him get up out of bed and walk outside. Long story shorter, he ends up being the cause of some universe ending paradox type stuff going on, and as he is supposed to be dead, he knows he has to stop himself going outside back when the plane part hit the house. The paradox causes storms which trap a plane in some kind of vortex. This causes the plane to break up and a part goes back through time to land on his house killing him. He dies sort of happy and laughing, knowing he saved everything.

The Tardis Explosion is the same kind of loop going on. It ends up exploding and causing the cracks because it has to. The doctor wouldn't have gone through the series5 adventures, Which lead to this happening, without the cracks in the first place.

On screen I think it was said it was as if it was being controlled by an outside force. Later the doctor also said the Tardis had put itself into a loop, which had trapped River. This also all happened after the doctor was first put in the pandorica. Same as all the stars disappearing the very moment he first went in there. This is the moment the cracks are created. It doesn't matter what time an observer happens to be in, the cracks happen all across the universe. The 'when' part is irrelevant because we are dealing with cracks in tine as well as space. It happens every-when as well as everywhere. The centre gets protected by the tardis as it tries to hold on, protecting Earth, where the doctor is in the pandorica, for as long as it can, before the pre ordained explosion, meanwhile the universe gets less and less as it disappears through the cracks, different 'times' at different times, leaving only those at the eye of the storm left. A storm which happens when pandorica meets tardis at precisely the right tine, both the resulting cause of the Tardis exploding, and causing the cracks to appear, which suck everything through to be rebuilt in the 'new universe' the same explosion also helps to bring about.

I've seen it said this falls down because that is not what the pandorica does. OK nobody knows what it does really, or doesnt do either. And even if it does not do exactly what I said then everything is still valid. The pandorica is still part of the explosion when the doctor flies into it at the right moment.
(Although I think the moment the stars go out is the biggest clue as to what is happening the moment he
Gets sealed inside. At the same time the tardis throws itself into a loop to try and prevent itself exploding for as long as possible). All that is required is to move the magnifying glass backwards
another step to ask who made it/gave it to the alliance and persuaded them the doc caused the cracks, and be should be put in the 'magic box' to stop the tardis exploding, (when they really wanted the tardis to explode).WHO was that. The silence seem to be the culprits, but their motives for wanting this to happen have not fully come out yet.

PS sorry for going on so long. This kind of stuff really gets me thinking. I do enjoy a good story that keeps you thinking long afterwards
Plus. Typing on my mobile at the moment too, so sorry for any poor grammar or spelling.
The TARDIS is already exploding before the Pandorica gets flown into the explosion - this is made clear in the dialogue.

DOCTOR: When the Tardis blew up, it caused a total event collapse. A time explosion. And that explosion blasted every atom in every moment of the universe. Except
AMY: Except inside the Pandorica.
DOCTOR: The perfect prison. And inside it, perfectly preserved, a few billion atoms of the universe as it was. In theory, you could extrapolate the whole universe from a single one of them, like, like cloning a body from a single cell. And we've got the bumper family pack.
RORY: No, no. Too fast. I'm not getting it.
DOCTOR: The box contains a memory of the universe, and the light transmits the memory, and that's how we're going to do it.
AMY: Do what?
DOCTOR: Relight the fire. Reboot the universe. Come on!
RIVER: Doctor, you're being completely ridiculous. The Pandorica partially restored one Dalek. If it can't even reboot a single life form properly, how's it reboot the whole of reality?
DOCTOR: What if we give it a moment of infinite power? What if we can transmit the light from the Pandorica to every particle of space and time simultaneously?
...
RIVER: The Tardis is still burning. It's exploding at every point in history. If you threw the Pandorica into the explosion, right into the heart of the fire.
AMY: Then what?
RIVER: Then let there be light. The light from the Pandorica would explode everywhere at once, just like he said.
AMY: That would work? That would bring everything back?
RIVER: A restoration field powered by an exploding Tardis, happening at every moment in history. Oh, that's brilliant. It might even work. He's wired the vortex manipulator to the rest of the box.
AMY: Why?
RIVER: So he can take it with him. He's going to fly the Pandorica into the heart of the explosion.
The Pandorica was only a prison, according to the script, and the intentions of the script. The Pandorica was flown into the already exploding TARDIS - which put itself into a loop to save the occupant, after it had already started exploding.
DOCTOR: No, it's not. Of course, the emergency protocols. The Tardis has sealed off the control room and put her into a time loop to save her. She is right at the heart of the explosion.
The whole reason the stars all die as soon as the Doctor gets sealed away, and River gets shut into an exploding TARDIS is the same reason Amy gets shot at the same time - dramatic tension. The episode drwas to a close at that point, so all the cliff-hangers need to be in place at the same time. It's a storytelling convention, nothing else - certainly not a clue to a wholly invented property of a new thing, that then wasn't even hinted at being a property of it either before or after...
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Old 22-11-2013, 12:27
kyllerbuzcut
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Wow. We are really taking over this thread It's interesting to talk about so no matter as long as others don't mind my ramblings.

I think the whole point about the Tardis exploding is missed by many. It's a time explosion. "when" it explodes doesn't really come into it for those purposes. You can't say the doctor had nothing to do with the explosion at any point because it hadn't happened yet or It was happening before he knew about it. It didn't just explode for no reason and many people, including me, are dead certain nothing "sneaked on board". To me it is so obvious that the Tardis explosion caused the cracks, but the cause of the explosion was brought about also, by the cracks. The alliance didn't know why they were putting him in what they thought was a prison. I'm sure most of them would have preferred to just kill him. Someone told them to do all this and brought them together for that very propose.showing them the cracks and pointing the finger at the doctor, when all along this mastermind must have known they were really bringing about the cause of them in the first place. It's a perfect loop. That's why I brought up Donnie Darko, the loop completes in a similar way.

actually, it would make it even closer to the film if at sine point we find out the doctor is the originator of the silence religion (I mean more than just their sort of devil figure if you like, but instead actively creates the silence at it's beginning).

Fin the dialogue you quoted it is said that he light from the Pandorica would explode everywhere at once if it was at the heart if the Tardis explosion. The doctor also said we can transmit the light from the Pandorica to every particle of space and time simultaneously. They are here describing both the cause and solution of all the cracks in the first place.
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Old 22-11-2013, 13:41
johnnysaucepn
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I think the whole point about the Tardis exploding is missed by many. It's a time explosion. "when" it explodes doesn't really come into it for those purposes.
Yes, it does. The Doctor explicitly says (in Flesh and Stone) that the explosion happens at a given point in time, and later in The Pandorica Opens that someone drew the TARDIS to that date and time to blow it up. That is a timezone unrelated to Underhenge.

Fin the dialogue you quoted it is said that he light from the Pandorica would explode everywhere at once if it was at the heart if the Tardis explosion. The doctor also said we can transmit the light from the Pandorica to every particle of space and time simultaneously. They are here describing both the cause and solution of all the cracks in the first place.
No, it's the effect and solution. The TARDIS exploding causes rips through all space and time, it was also able to spread the cure. The cause was somebody deliberately blowing up the TARDIS.
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Old 22-11-2013, 13:47
sebbie3000
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Wow. We are really taking over this thread It's interesting to talk about so no matter as long as others don't mind my ramblings.

I think the whole point about the Tardis exploding is missed by many. It's a time explosion. "when" it explodes doesn't really come into it for those purposes. You can't say the doctor had nothing to do with the explosion at any point because it hadn't happened yet or It was happening before he knew about it. It didn't just explode for no reason and many people, including me, are dead certain nothing "sneaked on board". To me it is so obvious that the Tardis explosion caused the cracks, but the cause of the explosion was brought about also, by the cracks. The alliance didn't know why they were putting him in what they thought was a prison. I'm sure most of them would have preferred to just kill him. Someone told them to do all this and brought them together for that very propose.showing them the cracks and pointing the finger at the doctor, when all along this mastermind must have known they were really bringing about the cause of them in the first place. It's a perfect loop. That's why I brought up Donnie Darko, the loop completes in a similar way.

actually, it would make it even closer to the film if at sine point we find out the doctor is the originator of the silence religion (I mean more than just their sort of devil figure if you like, but instead actively creates the silence at it's beginning).

Fin the dialogue you quoted it is said that he light from the Pandorica would explode everywhere at once if it was at the heart if the Tardis explosion. The doctor also said we can transmit the light from the Pandorica to every particle of space and time simultaneously. They are here describing both the cause and solution of all the cracks in the first place.
I doubt I will ever get you to change your position, as it seems you have interpreted explicit dialogue and established facts differently from how they were presented...

Anyway, one misconception you have that should be cleared up is about the meaningless of saying 'when' in relation to the TARDIS explosion - the explosion has an epicentre. Which was Amy's wedding day. You yourself mentioned the 'eye of the storm - it can't have one if it is truly exploding everywhere and everywhen at the same time without an epicentre. That epicentre is where they pilot the Pandorica into to spread it through the explosion that's happening throughout the whole of time and space.

As for my own personal theory - I agree that someone manipulated the Alliance. We know this because they thought, erroneously, that only the Doctor could pilot the TARDIS - when we all know anybody can! But they needed the Doctor out of the way as he was the only one who could stop the TARDIS exploding.
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Old 22-11-2013, 14:42
johnnysaucepn
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That epicentre is where they pilot the Pandorica into to spread it through the explosion that's happening throughout the whole of time and space.
Going to be picky here, sebbie3000 - the explosion took place on Amy's wedding day, the day that Amy took off with the Doctor, but the events of The Big Bang in the museum took place when Amy was 8, i.e. the date that they first met.

Granted, once the universe has collapsed there's not much of a distinction any more. But it's interesting that the TARDIS is burning at an earlier date than it blew up - lending credence to the idea of the TARDIS being connected to all points in the new timeline, while also completely failing to make any sense.
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Old 22-11-2013, 14:48
sebbie3000
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Going to be picky here, sebbie3000 - the explosion took place on Amy's wedding day, the day that Amy took off with the Doctor, but the events of The Big Bang in the museum took place when Amy was 8, i.e. the date that they first met.

Granted, once the universe has collapsed there's not much of a distinction any more. But it's interesting that the TARDIS is burning at an earlier date than it blew up - lending credence to the idea of the TARDIS being connected to all points in the new timeline, while also completely failing to make any sense.
No, you are completely correct to be picky, I had indeed forgotten the time differential!

And while that does take away some of what I said, it in no way adds to kyller's theory!
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Old 22-11-2013, 14:57
kyllerbuzcut
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Yes Johnny. The explosion was seen from earth from "roman times" til "Amy aged 8 times".the stars vanished and the Tardis replaced the sun and kept the earth safe for the remaining time.
The actual point of the explosion did happen at "A" point originally of course. The spark, or ignition of it happening at a certain point (Amy aged 8 times) is irrelevant because it then spreads through time to all points. When I'm talking about epicentre of the explosion, it is around that ignition point. It is no coincidence that this happens to be around the current location of the pandorica.
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Old 22-11-2013, 15:27
sebbie3000
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Yes Johnny. The explosion was seen from earth from "roman times" til "Amy aged 8 times".the stars vanished and the Tardis replaced the sun and kept the earth safe for the remaining time.
The actual point of the explosion did happen at "A" point originally of course. The spark, or ignition of it happening at a certain point (Amy aged 8 times) is irrelevant because it then spreads through time to all points. When I'm talking about epicentre of the explosion, it is around that ignition point. It is no coincidence that this happens to be around the current location of the pandorica.
You can't have it both ways! The Pandorica has existed from whenever it was created, so therefore the TARDIS explosion has happened at all times the Pandorica existed along its own personal timeline.
With your logic, there can be no 'current location of the Pandorica' correlation with the epicentre of the explosion...

And we've seen the TARDIS come to the rescue for the Doctor and/or his companions, so it's no stretch to assume that the TARDIS was trying to get to where the Doctor was, being that it would naturally follow his personal timeline, not the Pandorica's. Certainly less of a stretch (in my mind) than creating a different explanation that contradicts what's been seen and heard.
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Old 22-11-2013, 19:02
Shatterhand1013
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It is the core belief of the religious order known as the Silence that Silence will fall when the question is asked. That the Doctor mustn't reach Trenzalore.
As Dorium stated, a more correct translation of the prophetic phrase is that 'silence must fall' when the question is asked'. The silence that must fall isn't that of the religion, it's that of The Doctor.

As it stands, the plot to kill The Doctor at Lake Silencio was one plan from The Silence to stop him from ever reaching Trenzalore. But I think the general consensus is that before this happened, the plan was to seal The Doctor in the Pandorica and destroy the TARDIS once and for all. Both this plan, and the Lake Silencio plot failed and the Doctor made it to Trenzalore. We don't yet know why The Silence never wanted the Doctor to make it there, but we're likely to find out soon...perhaps it's to do with the 'endless, bitter war' that Madame Kovarian mentioned.

So, put as simply as possible...
Who are the Silence?
The Silence are a religious order whose core belief is that silence must fall when the question is asked.

Who are the Silents?
The Silents are alien beings who have been shaping humanity for centuries. They are strongly affiliated with the religious movement known as The Silence.

Whose silence must fall?
The Silence religion believes that The Doctor's silence must fall when the question (Doctor Who?) is asked at Trenzalore. To make silence fall, they plot to remove The Doctor altogether, presumably blowing up the TARDIS as one attempt, and killing him in Utah as another.

Why must silence fall?
Silence must fall to prevent the question being answered, only the question is answered and it opens The Doctor's tomb...paving the way for the events we're about to see in The Day of the Doctor. Whatever is coming, the Silence religion didn't want it.

No matter what, I really think Moffat has made things needlessly complicated by having Silents and The Silence as two separate entities that are associated... it needed better explaining in-series.
According to several sources I've read, the Silents were the alien race that founded the Silence, the religious order created for one purpose: to prevent The Question from being answered on the fields of Trenzalore. My questions are: what was their motivation for preventing the Question from being answered? What did they stand to gain (or lose)? Is there an even higher power involved in the Silence, above the Silents, orchestrating the entire movement? Perhaps he (or it) is the source of the voice heard in the TARDIS before its destruction in "The Pandorica Opens".

Also, wasn't the whole issue rendered moot already? After all, River Song answered the Question at Trenzalore when it was asked by the Great Intelligence. No one else heard the Answer (except for Clara, who was linked to River), but the Tomb of the Doctor opened when it was spoken.

So another question that could be asked about this is: Did that answer "count"? The Fall of the Eleventh is still going to pass soon enough anyway, and there have been rumors that we'll be seeing Trenzalore again in the Christmas Special. So, it's possible that the Question is still waiting for its Answer, and the Silence still have a reason to fear it. However, since I've also heard that the Cybermen are involved with the Christmas special, the Silence (or Trenzalore) may not figure into any of this at all.
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Old 22-11-2013, 21:35
kyllerbuzcut
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You can't have it both ways! The Pandorica has existed from whenever it was created, so therefore the TARDIS explosion has happened at all times the Pandorica existed along its own personal timeline.
With your logic, there can be no 'current location of the Pandorica' correlation with the epicentre of the explosion...

And we've seen the TARDIS come to the rescue for the Doctor and/or his companions, so it's no stretch to assume that the TARDIS was trying to get to where the Doctor was, being that it would naturally follow his personal timeline, not the Pandorica's. Certainly less of a stretch (in my mind) than creating a different explanation that contradicts what's been seen and heard.
There's nothing 'both ways' Yes, I think you've got it when you say it naturally tries get to where the doctor is. I was going to put that in my previous comment, that it was both of them, as the doctor was inside the pandorica at that 'point', but I'm trying really hard to not go on to long (what do you mean no one believes that), and try and sum that up as quickly as possible, the point where they all meet again is the actual occurrence (not 'time') of the explosion. There is really no time of the explosion.same is there is no real time of the real big bang which theoretically created our own, real, universe. Time did not exist before that. And in whoniverse time was disappearing through cracks all over the place too, not in a uniform manner and the big bang 2, which sucked everything through those cracks re created the universe and recreated time on the 'other side'. There literally was NO time of the explosion and 'all of time' at the happening of it. All compressed into one place, where we see the doctor 'wandering around' some of the events of s5 before the reboot.

You never know, maybe we will see the creation of the pandorica in a future episode or something. Or then again, maybe not, as with my theory now the loop is closed it had no reason to exist, our ever have existed in this new universe. It only existed inside that particular loop, just like the Donnie Darko who lived those extra days only existed up until the loop was closed again, then the universe was reset back to how it should be, with no Donnie in it. Or in this case with no pandorica in it.

Even if we don't get to see is creation on screen at any point, we might well get further ideas of who and why created it to 'get the Doctor', if that even was their real intention. For all we know, It could heave been some kind of plan to make the universe just disappear for whatever reason. And they just wanted the doctor or the way? There are other theories around, including the one where omega was behind everything since the beginning of s5 (possibly before then too), and another one where bad wolf is still going. Some parts of all of them make sense, otherwise no one would propagate them I suppose

The answering of the question......question, I think it could well be that the actual answering which happened wad just the beginning and leads to a series of events, which we may find out about partly tomorrow and the rest at Christmas...... Maybe.
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