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Apple claim its Samsungs fault that Apple are no longer seen as a Great Innovator


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Old 21-11-2013, 12:32
munta
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Definitely. The P series were great devices. Glad to see someone who has had actual experience with technology. I consider my old P800 a smartphone as well.
I had both the P800 and P900 prior to moving to iPhone's. Yes they could do a lot and I would definitely consider them smart phones, but they were clunky. The menu structure was confusing. Connecting via wifi was hit and miss. Configuring email was also far from straight forward. The screens were small and unresponsive. Windows mobile was not an elegant OS.

The thing that Apple did when they created the iPhone was to make a product that worked seamlessly. A product that needed no manual because it was so simple to use. A product where every task could be accomplished purely by clicking on an icon. That was Apples innovation. They sure didn't invent the smart phone but they made it ubiquitous. They focused on the core functionality people wanted in order to make a product that just works.
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Old 21-11-2013, 12:36
calico_pie
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That flash isn't really that good though, is it? So 10/10 for making something out to be innovative when it doesn't really move the game on at all. If they'd put in a truly useful flash (ie. a xenon unit) then it wouldn't be "innovative", it would just work better.

I've compared my 4S against an old 2nd gen Touch. And there really isn't a lot of difference at all. Nicer screen, faster processor. Thats about it. Overall usage, interface, etc. is pretty much identical.

And of course Apple innovate in other ways. They produce OS updates that make old phones into a laggy clunky mess (iOS 7 on the 4 & 4S really doesn't work that well at all).
That's not my experience.

I've gone from a 4 to a 5S and the flash is a huge improvement. Colours with the flash are much more natural now.
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Old 21-11-2013, 12:38
Stuart_h
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LOL @ the Samsung shills on this forum.

OK. I had to google "Shill".

I would say that these forums are a fairly even split between staunch Apple fans (Shills) and those who dont like the Apple company. Im certainly part of the latter group.

I'd suggest its a much smaller percentage who are wildly 'pro' any other company (such as Samsung, LG, HTC). There are a few but generally Android users tend to relish the fact there is choice. They may like a particular handset but there is much less 'brand loyalty' towards a manufacturer. There are a few very staunch Samsung fans here but I'd say way fewer than the Apple ones.

I may dislike Apple - but im not a huge fan of Samsung either.
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Old 21-11-2013, 13:04
IslandNiles
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That's not my experience.

I've gone from a 4 to a 5S and the flash is a huge improvement. Colours with the flash are much more natural now.
Whilst I wouldn't necessarily say the flash on the 5s is innovative, it's a definite major improvement, even from the 5. I did some comparison shots at arm's length between the 5 and 5s and the difference in clarity and tone was remarkable.
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Old 21-11-2013, 13:06
kidspud
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Apple are still innovating really?

Innovation is about meeting the needs and requirements that already exist and finding ways to meet them. If is not deciding what your willing to do and passing this of as new invention of innovation.

For example Samsung realise there is a desire for larger screens bit not larger phones, solution bigger screen in a smaller phone.

Apple know that most iPhone users want a larger screen, solution a different flash for the camera.

Slight difference
That's a bit of a strange example. Apple sell the worlds most popular phone, so they obviously have a good idea of what they are doing.

I didn't realise that samsungs use of a bigger screen was innovation, just goes to show how that term can be used selectively.
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Old 21-11-2013, 13:12
alanwarwic
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...A product where every task could be accomplished purely by clicking on an icon..
This is the first time I have heard this 'innovation' explained beyond just slogans.
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Old 21-11-2013, 13:35
IvanIV
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That's a bit of a strange example. Apple sell the worlds most popular phone, so they obviously have a good idea of what they are doing.

I didn't realise that samsungs use of a bigger screen was innovation, just goes to show how that term can be used selectively.
I think Apple is/was very good at gauging what would people like or persuading them to do so. They take existing ideas that often did not succeed the first time around, because they were ahead of time and try again. I am not sure tablets would be so popular now without Apple/Jobs.
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Old 21-11-2013, 13:37
swordman
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That's a bit of a strange example. Apple sell the worlds most popular phone, so they obviously have a good idea of what they are doing.

I didn't realise that samsungs use of a bigger screen was innovation, just goes to show how that term can be used selectively.
Which is the world's most popular phone then?

First time I have ever seen anyone claim something is innovative based on sales figures, very odd. Usually the old adage of of it ain't broke why fix it often applies in those circumstances.

Well glad that I have taught you something yet again. Something apple could learn from make the phone smaller yet the screen bigger, just what the consumer ordered, innovation at work
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Old 21-11-2013, 13:54
calico_pie
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Whilst I wouldn't necessarily say the flash on the 5s is innovative, it's a definite major improvement, even from the 5. I did some comparison shots at arm's length between the 5 and 5s and the difference in clarity and tone was remarkable.
I would - as far as I know it's doing something new, which helps provide a solution for an actual practical problem.

Surely that is the very definition of "innovation"?
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Old 21-11-2013, 14:15
qasdfdsaq
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What has "nobody thought of that before the iPhone" got to do with it.

Innovation is not invention. Posters keep referring to phones (and PDAs) which were around the same time as the iPhone release. Let someone suggest the best one they feel can be put alongside the iPhone on its release and let's see how it compares.
What has innovation or invention got to do with it? Where did I use either of those words.

You said "completely changed". I asked what has completely changed?

You've failed to name one single thing that's changed, I named three things that haven't changed.

Instead of once again twisting the argument into yet another "does apple innovate" debate why don't you just answer the question being asked.
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Old 21-11-2013, 14:28
Stiggles
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I would - as far as I know it's doing something new, which helps provide a solution for an actual practical problem.

Surely that is the very definition of "innovation"?
What did they do new with the flash?

Use a different colour led than they used before?
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Old 21-11-2013, 14:28
calico_pie
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The thing that completely changed was the entire user experience.
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Old 21-11-2013, 14:35
qasdfdsaq
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The entire user experience can't have "completely changed" when I spent five seconds thinking and already pointed out three things about it that didn't change at all.

You've still not come up with any actual answers.
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Old 21-11-2013, 14:47
clonmult
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That's not my experience.

I've gone from a 4 to a 5S and the flash is a huge improvement. Colours with the flash are much more natural now.
A flash should be very, very brief. Freeze the moment - people can be jumping around and a xenon with freeze it. These LEDs do not do that; motion will still be blurred with LEDs. Doesn't even have half the range or power of an even half decent xenon.

No, the "flash" on the iPhone isn't even slightly innovative as it cannot perform its primary function in any useful manner.
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Old 21-11-2013, 14:48
clonmult
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I had both the P800 and P900 prior to moving to iPhone's. Yes they could do a lot and I would definitely consider them smart phones, but they were clunky. The menu structure was confusing. Connecting via wifi was hit and miss. Configuring email was also far from straight forward. The screens were small and unresponsive. Windows mobile was not an elegant OS.
.
Sure that you used a P800 and P900, or the memory slipping? They didn't run WinMo, they ran UIQ on top of Symbian
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Old 21-11-2013, 14:49
clonmult
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What did they do new with the flash?

Use a different colour led than they used before?
Two colours. Thats it. Thats the innovation. No attempt to make it work like a proper flash does on a regular camera, still one of those ultimately useless LED units .... well, useless unless you want a light on a dark night.
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Old 21-11-2013, 14:54
IvanIV
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A 64 bit processor is a typical Apple innovation, IMO. Something that had been around for a while just not in mobile devices. One can debate its usefulness, but it can be used for marketing if nothing else.
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Old 21-11-2013, 14:56
Stiggles
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Two colours. Thats it. Thats the innovation. No attempt to make it work like a proper flash does on a regular camera, still one of those ultimately useless LED units .... well, useless unless you want a light on a dark night.
Very innovative then!!.....
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Old 21-11-2013, 15:08
qasdfdsaq
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Well admittedly the flash on my S4 always makes a horrendous mess of skin tones and plus, how many other phones have you seen with two flashes?

Admittedly, professional photographers use colour filters in front of real flashes all the time.
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Old 21-11-2013, 15:23
clonmult
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Well admittedly the flash on my S4 always makes a horrendous mess of skin tones and plus, how many other phones have you seen with two flashes?

Admittedly, professional photographers use colour filters in front of real flashes all the time.
I dunno, how many phones have you seen with real/decent flashes? I know of 5 from Nokia, and they're all Xenon based units. Similarly, SE had the K800, K810, K850, C905 (?).

Phones with two flashes? Nokias N85, N86 ... but two of the same colour for increased brightness.

I've occasionally used colour filters on my DSLR flash (but more often use indirect/diffuse flash), and have also used colour filters on the 808 flash (you can get some truly awesome effects). But thats what they're normally used for - effects.

I expect that what Apple do is apply some post processing to correct the image after using the different colour light.
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Old 21-11-2013, 15:35
calico_pie
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What did they do new with the flash?

Use a different colour led than they used before?
It uses two LEDs which can combine in hundreds of combinations to more naturally illuminate the scene, rather than a single white flash.

As far as I can tell it works as advertised, resulting in more natural images using the flash.
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Old 21-11-2013, 15:39
calico_pie
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A flash should be very, very brief. Freeze the moment - people can be jumping around and a xenon with freeze it. These LEDs do not do that; motion will still be blurred with LEDs. Doesn't even have half the range or power of an even half decent xenon.

No, the "flash" on the iPhone isn't even slightly innovative as it cannot perform its primary function in any useful manner.
That's simply not true. All you are doing is arguing that it doesn't work as well as xenon flashes in a particular circumstance - i.e. motion shots.

Taking still or portrait shots is an extremely common use of a camera, and like it or not the new flash on the iPhone goes a long way to improving those shots.

So as far as I can tell it is innovative (because its a solution no-one else has used before).

And it does "perform its primary function in a useful manner".

How can it be "useless" if it improves most shots taken?
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Old 21-11-2013, 15:49
clonmult
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That's simply not true. All you are doing is arguing that it doesn't work as well as xenon flashes in a particular circumstance - i.e. motion shots.

Taking still or portrait shots is an extremely common use of a camera, and like it or not the new flash on the iPhone goes a long way to improving those shots.

So as far as I can tell it is innovative (because its a solution no-one else has used before).

And it does "perform its primary function in a useful manner".

How can it be "useless" if it improves most shots taken?
Never had any problems with the colour balance on flash shots taken with the N85 back in the day, and that was dual LED. They just chose a very strange way of solving a problem shouldn't have existed in the first place if they had the camera well sorted.

The problem with these LED "flashes" is that people have to stay still. Which is great under some circumstances. But try telling a baby to stay still without stapling them in place, not going to happen. Xenon works better under the majority of use cases.

Which is why dedicated cameras don't use LEDs, they use xenon flashes.
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Old 21-11-2013, 15:53
clonmult
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It uses two LEDs which can combine in hundreds of combinations to more naturally illuminate the scene, rather than a single white flash.

As far as I can tell it works as advertised, resulting in more natural images using the flash.
They've got lighting with two colours. Doesn't make for hundreds. All white, all amber (or is it gold ) or a mix of the two. That isn't hundreds, that is, I think 3? Wonder if the amber is the same colour as sometimes used as a focus assist light on other cameras ... ?

So you now get better results than you may have done before on the 4S or 5. Which to be honest shows how bad the flash was on those (and I always have the flash disabled on my 4S, it truly is useless).
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Old 21-11-2013, 15:54
qasdfdsaq
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Indeed, though I disagree Xenon flash filters are only used for "effects". I use them almost all the time because to look natural a flash always has to be matched to the colour temperature of the ambient light.

Ironically that's a major advantage of LED flashes, with an appropriate RGBY/W setup you don't need colour filters as it can adapt the colour balance to any environment natively. Yet nobody seems to have done it yet...
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