Apple claim its Samsungs fault that Apple are no longer seen as a Great Innovator

calico_pie · 21-11-2013, 16:13

Quote:

Never had any problems with the colour balance on flash shots taken with the N85 back in the day, and that was dual LED. They just chose a very strange way of solving a problem shouldn't have existed in the first place if they had the camera well sorted.

The problem with these LED "flashes" is that people have to stay still. Which is great under some circumstances. But try telling a baby to stay still without stapling them in place, not going to happen. Xenon works better under the majority of use cases.

Which is why dedicated cameras don't use LEDs, they use xenon flashes.

I wouldn't agree that motion shots are "the majority of use cases". I would think, especially with camera phones, most shots are of mostly static people / objects.

Which isn't to say that Xenon wouldn't be better, but it has only recently been the case that they are small enough for smartphones. Apple were working within the confines of limited space where Xenon isn't yet entirely practical.

It may well be a strange (innovative?) way of solving the problem, but it does seem to go a long way to solving that problem nonetheless.

calico_pie · 21-11-2013, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonmult

They've got lighting with two colours. Doesn't make for hundreds. All white, all amber (or is it gold

) or a mix of the two. That isn't hundreds, that is, I think 3? Wonder if the amber is the same colour as sometimes used as a focus assist light on other cameras ... ?

So you now get better results than you may have done before on the 4S or 5. Which to be honest shows how bad the flash was on those (and I always have the flash disabled on my 4S, it truly is useless).

Sorry, hues then. You know what I meant!

alanwarwic · 21-11-2013, 21:57

"the Korean maker of Galaxy smartphones and tablets owes more than $800m in damages"

No real surprise. Though it was slightly shocking was the use of patriotism/race card by Apple.
http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...-infringements

The US certainly looks after its own money interests and Google Android being open also empowers other economies. Maybe the UK should learn some lessons in the 'very hard sell'.

munta · 21-11-2013, 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonmult

Sure that you used a P800 and P900, or the memory slipping? They didn't run WinMo, they ran UIQ on top of Symbian

Yup. Memory slipping. Got confused with my old O2 orbit

edEx · 21-11-2013, 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanwarwic

The US certainly looks after its own money interests and Google Android being open also empowers other economies. Maybe the UK should learn some lessons in the 'very hard sell'.

Android isn't as "open" as it once was. Device makers have to pay licensing fees for using it, to Microsoft of all people

BTW, Reuters are now reporting that Samsung just lost the case. $290m in damages to Apple, in addition to the $600m already awarded in the previous trial.

calico_pie · 21-11-2013, 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanwarwic

"the Korean maker of Galaxy smartphones and tablets owes more than $800m in damages"

No real surprise. Though it was slightly shocking was the use of patriotism/race card by Apple.
http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...-infringements

The US certainly looks after its own money interests and Google Android being open also empowers other economies. Maybe the UK should learn some lessons in the 'very hard sell'.

The race card?

On exactly what planet is a reference to the US not protecting its intellectual property racist?

Si_Crewe · 22-11-2013, 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanwarwic

"the Korean maker of Galaxy smartphones and tablets owes more than $800m in damages"

No real surprise. Though it was slightly shocking was the use of patriotism/race card by Apple.
http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...-infringements

The US certainly looks after its own money interests and Google Android being open also empowers other economies. Maybe the UK should learn some lessons in the 'very hard sell'.

Wasn't there recently a story about a Samsung case getting kicked out of a US court simply on the grounds that their aggressive defence of intellectual property is stifling competition or something?

So, basically, once you've taken a bunch of people to court for ripping you off you're not allowed to do it any more cos, erm, it stops people from being able to rip you off?

...unless your products have a cutesy fruit logo on them, I guess.

swordman · 22-11-2013, 00:50

The president usually steps in when apple are in trouble in the states.

konebyvax · 22-11-2013, 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordman

The president usually steps in when apple are in trouble in the states.

Probably likes to keep them sweet in case his Govt needs to borrow some money off them.

alanwarwic · 22-11-2013, 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by calico_pie

The race card?On exactly what planet is a reference to the US not protecting its intellectual property racist?

It was meant to be company against company, not a protectionist stance against foreigners.
Do that and tit for tat lose lose trade might war might ensue. Obama did the exact same with his unlearned/badly timed intervention.

I get the impression that it is mainly Britain who 'rolls over and dies' considering the likes of Google, Amazon and Apple's corporate tax dodging is possibly costing each of us several thousand pounds a year now.

kidspud · 22-11-2013, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanwarwic

It was meant to be company against company, not a protectionist stance against foreigners.

Do that and tit for tat lose lose trade might war might ensue. Obama did the exact same with his unlearned/badly timed intervention.

I think using terms like racist is a little silly ad there is nothing of the sort gone on in this trial.

It's also worth remembering this case was only about the value of the damages. Samsung openly admitted guilt at the being of the trial having already lost that case.

As is usual, I'm sure Samsung will appeal and the excitement can continue for a while longer.

kidspud · 22-11-2013, 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanwarwic

It was meant to be company against company, not a protectionist stance against foreigners.
Do that and tit for tat lose lose trade might war might ensue. Obama did the exact same with his unlearned/badly timed intervention.

I get the impression that it is mainly Britain who 'rolls over and dies' considering the likes of Google, Amazon and Apple's corporate tax dodging is possibly costing each of us several thousand pounds a year now.

It is Britain's fault that any company can take legal tax avoidance measures and the government should do something about it.

However, google not paying tax does not cost you or me anything in terms of real money. Do you thing if google et al did pay full tax that the government would reduce your personal tax liability? If so, you have way more faith in them than I do

alanwarwic · 22-11-2013, 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidspud

I think using terms like racist is a little silly ad there is nothing of the sort gone on in this trial. ...

Could they have claimed cost to the US if it was Apple versus Microsoft?

Nope, they painted Samsung as 'Johnny Foreigner'.
I guess I'm always painting the US as the biggest tax crook too. There are European companies and even supposed British companies also costing our economy dear.

In the US, flying that patriotic flag certainly works considering the iPhone still sells big there.

clonmult · 22-11-2013, 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by calico_pie

I wouldn't agree that motion shots are "the majority of use cases". I would think, especially with camera phones, most shots are of mostly static people / objects.

Which isn't to say that Xenon wouldn't be better, but it has only recently been the case that they are small enough for smartphones. Apple were working within the confines of limited space where Xenon isn't yet entirely practical.

It may well be a strange (innovative?) way of solving the problem, but it does seem to go a long way to solving that problem nonetheless.

You can ask adults to keep still, with toddlers its almost impossible.

Xenon can easily be made small enough. The 808, 1020 and N8 were only thicker due to the camera assembly. The xenon flash and capacitor have been thin enough to fit into something the size of the iPhone for years.

Although it has to be said that not many companies are truly serious about the camera on the phones - SE used to be, these days its only Nokia. The cameras are generally deemed "good enough" for a lot of use cases. I just know that they won't fit my usage particularly well.

alanwarwic · 22-11-2013, 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by kidspud

...However, google not paying tax does not cost you or me anything in terms of real money..

It will be a long term far heavier cost when we choose to promote more borrowing, borrowing that we all pay for.

calico_pie · 22-11-2013, 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanwarwic

It was meant to be company against company, not a protectionist stance against foreigners.
Do that and tit for tat lose lose trade might war might ensue. Obama did the exact same with his unlearned/badly timed intervention.

I get the impression that it is mainly Britain who 'rolls over and dies' considering the likes of Google, Amazon and Apple's corporate tax dodging is possibly costing each of us several thousand pounds a year now.

What does protection of US intellectual property from foreign companies have to do with racism though?

calico_pie · 22-11-2013, 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonmult

You can ask adults to keep still, with toddlers its almost impossible.

Xenon can easily be made small enough. The 808, 1020 and N8 were only thicker due to the camera assembly. The xenon flash and capacitor have been thin enough to fit into something the size of the iPhone for years.

Although it has to be said that not many companies are truly serious about the camera on the phones - SE used to be, these days its only Nokia. The cameras are generally deemed "good enough" for a lot of use cases. I just know that they won't fit my usage particularly well.

"Toddlers" is hardly "most case scenarios" though is it? Its one example.

The fact that Xenon may be better does not change the fact that the new iPhone flash is innovative, in that it helps solve a practical problem, and significantly improves results.

kidspud · 22-11-2013, 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanwarwic

It will be a long term far heavier cost when we choose to promote more borrowing, borrowing that we all pay for.

Agreed. Maybe the government should stop spending money it hasn't got.

I hope they are not currently planning on spending money which under their own legislation they are not entitled to?

clonmult · 22-11-2013, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by calico_pie

"Toddlers" is hardly "most case scenarios" though is it? Its one example.

The fact that Xenon may be better does not change the fact that the new iPhone flash is innovative, in that it helps solve a practical problem, and significantly improves results.

Significantly improves results over previous iPhones, but doesn't improve over the results I've experienced with dual LED devices in years gone by.

Its not really innovative when others have managed to get decent results without resorting to funky lighting.

And xenon is clearly better. When was the last time you saw a DSLR equipped with LEDs (other than ring flashes for macro work)?

calico_pie · 22-11-2013, 12:09

When was the last time you saw a DSLR the size of a smartphone?

alan1302 · 22-11-2013, 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by calico_pie

When was the last time you saw a DSLR the size of a smartphone?

You are missing the point (as you often do).

Xenon flashes are used with DSLR cameras as they are the best. So a Xenon flash on a phone is also the best.

The Apple 5S may have a different flash but it's not the best and no doubt done for cost reasons more than anything.

IvanIV · 22-11-2013, 13:24

Related content from Digital Spy:

Samsung ordered to pay Apple $930m in damages

Looks like an appeal on jury's patriotism worked.

clonmult · 22-11-2013, 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by calico_pie

When was the last time you saw a DSLR the size of a smartphone?

Where's the whoosh parrot when you need it?

Alan said it well, but to add - the capacitor and flash unit are quite small. Yes, the 808 was chunky but that was down to the lens assembly. Similarly, the 1020 is thicker due to the camera, not the flash. Apple (and others) don't bother with xenon as they believe LEDs are "good enough".

For some they are good enough, for others they definitely aren't. Its the one reason why I couldn't ever use an iPhone of any kind as my primary camera, wereas the 808 or 1020 can readily replace/better most dedicated compact cameras.

Voynich · 22-11-2013, 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by IvanIV

Related content from Digital Spy:

Samsung ordered to pay Apple $930m in damages

Looks like an appeal on jury's patriotism worked.

Everywhere else is saying it's 290 million dollars!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25041852

Edit. I see they've counted the previous amount.

jem101 · 22-11-2013, 14:12

Read the 8th paragraph of that article.

21-11-2013, 16:13	#126
calico_pie Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 9,428	Quote: Originally Posted by clonmult Never had any problems with the colour balance on flash shots taken with the N85 back in the day, and that was dual LED. They just chose a very strange way of solving a problem shouldn't have existed in the first place if they had the camera well sorted. The problem with these LED "flashes" is that people have to stay still. Which is great under some circumstances. But try telling a baby to stay still without stapling them in place, not going to happen. Xenon works better under the majority of use cases. Which is why dedicated cameras don't use LEDs, they use xenon flashes. I wouldn't agree that motion shots are "the majority of use cases". I would think, especially with camera phones, most shots are of mostly static people / objects. Which isn't to say that Xenon wouldn't be better, but it has only recently been the case that they are small enough for smartphones. Apple were working within the confines of limited space where Xenon isn't yet entirely practical. It may well be a strange (innovative?) way of solving the problem, but it does seem to go a long way to solving that problem nonetheless.

21-11-2013, 16:14	#127
calico_pie Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 9,428	Quote: Originally Posted by clonmult They've got lighting with two colours. Doesn't make for hundreds. All white, all amber (or is it gold ) or a mix of the two. That isn't hundreds, that is, I think 3? Wonder if the amber is the same colour as sometimes used as a focus assist light on other cameras ... ? So you now get better results than you may have done before on the 4S or 5. Which to be honest shows how bad the flash was on those (and I always have the flash disabled on my 4S, it truly is useless). Sorry, hues then. You know what I meant!

21-11-2013, 21:57	#128
alanwarwic Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: the wild world web Posts: 28,132	"the Korean maker of Galaxy smartphones and tablets owes more than $800m in damages" No real surprise. Though it was slightly shocking was the use of patriotism/race card by Apple. http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...-infringements The US certainly looks after its own money interests and Google Android being open also empowers other economies. Maybe the UK should learn some lessons in the 'very hard sell'.

21-11-2013, 22:41	#129
munta Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: The United Kingdom Posts: 15,551	Quote: Originally Posted by clonmult Sure that you used a P800 and P900, or the memory slipping? They didn't run WinMo, they ran UIQ on top of Symbian Yup. Memory slipping. Got confused with my old O2 orbit

21-11-2013, 23:10	#130
edEx Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Londres, Tierra del Fuego Posts: 12,952	Quote: Originally Posted by alanwarwic The US certainly looks after its own money interests and Google Android being open also empowers other economies. Maybe the UK should learn some lessons in the 'very hard sell'. Android isn't as "open" as it once was. Device makers have to pay licensing fees for using it, to Microsoft of all people BTW, Reuters are now reporting that Samsung just lost the case. $290m in damages to Apple, in addition to the $600m already awarded in the previous trial.

21-11-2013, 23:33	#131
calico_pie Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 9,428	Quote: Originally Posted by alanwarwic "the Korean maker of Galaxy smartphones and tablets owes more than $800m in damages" No real surprise. Though it was slightly shocking was the use of patriotism/race card by Apple. http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...-infringements The US certainly looks after its own money interests and Google Android being open also empowers other economies. Maybe the UK should learn some lessons in the 'very hard sell'. The race card? On exactly what planet is a reference to the US not protecting its intellectual property racist?

22-11-2013, 00:43	#132
Si_Crewe Inactive Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Dumfries Posts: 38,495	Quote: Originally Posted by alanwarwic "the Korean maker of Galaxy smartphones and tablets owes more than $800m in damages" No real surprise. Though it was slightly shocking was the use of patriotism/race card by Apple. http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...-infringements The US certainly looks after its own money interests and Google Android being open also empowers other economies. Maybe the UK should learn some lessons in the 'very hard sell'. Wasn't there recently a story about a Samsung case getting kicked out of a US court simply on the grounds that their aggressive defence of intellectual property is stifling competition or something? So, basically, once you've taken a bunch of people to court for ripping you off you're not allowed to do it any more cos, erm, it stops people from being able to rip you off? ...unless your products have a cutesy fruit logo on them, I guess.

22-11-2013, 00:50	#133
swordman Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 6,342	The president usually steps in when apple are in trouble in the states.

22-11-2013, 08:23	#134
konebyvax Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Ignoringtrollsville Posts: 7,875	Quote: Originally Posted by swordman The president usually steps in when apple are in trouble in the states. Probably likes to keep them sweet in case his Govt needs to borrow some money off them.

22-11-2013, 08:26	#135
alanwarwic Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: the wild world web Posts: 28,132	Quote: Originally Posted by calico_pie The race card?On exactly what planet is a reference to the US not protecting its intellectual property racist? It was meant to be company against company, not a protectionist stance against foreigners. Do that and tit for tat lose lose trade might war might ensue. Obama did the exact same with his unlearned/badly timed intervention. I get the impression that it is mainly Britain who 'rolls over and dies' considering the likes of Google, Amazon and Apple's corporate tax dodging is possibly costing each of us several thousand pounds a year now.

22-11-2013, 08:33	#136
kidspud Forum Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 11,501	Quote: Originally Posted by alanwarwic It was meant to be company against company, not a protectionist stance against foreigners. Do that and tit for tat lose lose trade might war might ensue. Obama did the exact same with his unlearned/badly timed intervention. I think using terms like racist is a little silly ad there is nothing of the sort gone on in this trial. It's also worth remembering this case was only about the value of the damages. Samsung openly admitted guilt at the being of the trial having already lost that case. As is usual, I'm sure Samsung will appeal and the excitement can continue for a while longer.

22-11-2013, 08:44	#137
kidspud Forum Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 11,501	Quote: Originally Posted by alanwarwic It was meant to be company against company, not a protectionist stance against foreigners. Do that and tit for tat lose lose trade might war might ensue. Obama did the exact same with his unlearned/badly timed intervention. I get the impression that it is mainly Britain who 'rolls over and dies' considering the likes of Google, Amazon and Apple's corporate tax dodging is possibly costing each of us several thousand pounds a year now. It is Britain's fault that any company can take legal tax avoidance measures and the government should do something about it. However, google not paying tax does not cost you or me anything in terms of real money. Do you thing if google et al did pay full tax that the government would reduce your personal tax liability? If so, you have way more faith in them than I do

22-11-2013, 08:45	#138
alanwarwic Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: the wild world web Posts: 28,132	Quote: Originally Posted by kidspud I think using terms like racist is a little silly ad there is nothing of the sort gone on in this trial. ... Could they have claimed cost to the US if it was Apple versus Microsoft? Nope, they painted Samsung as 'Johnny Foreigner'. I guess I'm always painting the US as the biggest tax crook too. There are European companies and even supposed British companies also costing our economy dear. In the US, flying that patriotic flag certainly works considering the iPhone still sells big there.

22-11-2013, 09:36	#139
clonmult Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,291	Quote: Originally Posted by calico_pie I wouldn't agree that motion shots are "the majority of use cases". I would think, especially with camera phones, most shots are of mostly static people / objects. Which isn't to say that Xenon wouldn't be better, but it has only recently been the case that they are small enough for smartphones. Apple were working within the confines of limited space where Xenon isn't yet entirely practical. It may well be a strange (innovative?) way of solving the problem, but it does seem to go a long way to solving that problem nonetheless. You can ask adults to keep still, with toddlers its almost impossible. Xenon can easily be made small enough. The 808, 1020 and N8 were only thicker due to the camera assembly. The xenon flash and capacitor have been thin enough to fit into something the size of the iPhone for years. Although it has to be said that not many companies are truly serious about the camera on the phones - SE used to be, these days its only Nokia. The cameras are generally deemed "good enough" for a lot of use cases. I just know that they won't fit my usage particularly well.

22-11-2013, 09:55	#140
alanwarwic Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: the wild world web Posts: 28,132	Quote: Originally Posted by kidspud ...However, google not paying tax does not cost you or me anything in terms of real money.. It will be a long term far heavier cost when we choose to promote more borrowing, borrowing that we all pay for.

22-11-2013, 10:10	#141
calico_pie Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 9,428	Quote: Originally Posted by alanwarwic It was meant to be company against company, not a protectionist stance against foreigners. Do that and tit for tat lose lose trade might war might ensue. Obama did the exact same with his unlearned/badly timed intervention. I get the impression that it is mainly Britain who 'rolls over and dies' considering the likes of Google, Amazon and Apple's corporate tax dodging is possibly costing each of us several thousand pounds a year now. What does protection of US intellectual property from foreign companies have to do with racism though?

22-11-2013, 10:12	#142
calico_pie Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 9,428	Quote: Originally Posted by clonmult You can ask adults to keep still, with toddlers its almost impossible. Xenon can easily be made small enough. The 808, 1020 and N8 were only thicker due to the camera assembly. The xenon flash and capacitor have been thin enough to fit into something the size of the iPhone for years. Although it has to be said that not many companies are truly serious about the camera on the phones - SE used to be, these days its only Nokia. The cameras are generally deemed "good enough" for a lot of use cases. I just know that they won't fit my usage particularly well. "Toddlers" is hardly "most case scenarios" though is it? Its one example. The fact that Xenon may be better does not change the fact that the new iPhone flash is innovative, in that it helps solve a practical problem, and significantly improves results.

22-11-2013, 10:12	#143
kidspud Forum Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 11,501	Quote: Originally Posted by alanwarwic It will be a long term far heavier cost when we choose to promote more borrowing, borrowing that we all pay for. Agreed. Maybe the government should stop spending money it hasn't got. I hope they are not currently planning on spending money which under their own legislation they are not entitled to?

22-11-2013, 11:29	#144
clonmult Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,291	Quote: Originally Posted by calico_pie "Toddlers" is hardly "most case scenarios" though is it? Its one example. The fact that Xenon may be better does not change the fact that the new iPhone flash is innovative, in that it helps solve a practical problem, and significantly improves results. Significantly improves results over previous iPhones, but doesn't improve over the results I've experienced with dual LED devices in years gone by. Its not really innovative when others have managed to get decent results without resorting to funky lighting. And xenon is clearly better. When was the last time you saw a DSLR equipped with LEDs (other than ring flashes for macro work)?

22-11-2013, 12:09	#145
calico_pie Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 9,428	When was the last time you saw a DSLR the size of a smartphone?

22-11-2013, 12:53	#146
alan1302 Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: West Yorks Posts: 6,180	Quote: Originally Posted by calico_pie When was the last time you saw a DSLR the size of a smartphone? You are missing the point (as you often do). Xenon flashes are used with DSLR cameras as they are the best. So a Xenon flash on a phone is also the best. The Apple 5S may have a different flash but it's not the best and no doubt done for cost reasons more than anything.

DS Forums

Apple claim its Samsungs fault that Apple are no longer seen as a Great Innovator

22-11-2013, 13:24	#147
IvanIV Forum Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 25,199	Related content from Digital Spy: Samsung ordered to pay Apple $930m in damages Looks like an appeal on jury's patriotism worked.

22-11-2013, 13:55	#148
clonmult Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,291	Quote: Originally Posted by calico_pie When was the last time you saw a DSLR the size of a smartphone? Where's the whoosh parrot when you need it? Alan said it well, but to add - the capacitor and flash unit are quite small. Yes, the 808 was chunky but that was down to the lens assembly. Similarly, the 1020 is thicker due to the camera, not the flash. Apple (and others) don't bother with xenon as they believe LEDs are "good enough". For some they are good enough, for others they definitely aren't. Its the one reason why I couldn't ever use an iPhone of any kind as my primary camera, wereas the 808 or 1020 can readily replace/better most dedicated compact cameras.

22-11-2013, 14:08	#149
Voynich Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Western Scotland Posts: 13,586	Quote: Originally Posted by IvanIV Related content from Digital Spy: Samsung ordered to pay Apple $930m in damages Looks like an appeal on jury's patriotism worked. Everywhere else is saying it's 290 million dollars! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25041852 Edit. I see they've counted the previous amount.

22-11-2013, 14:12	#150
jem101 Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bexley-and not the good part! Posts: 302	Read the 8th paragraph of that article.