Ok, I rarely start a new thread, and it is with some trepidation that I start this one, but this has been bugging me for some time. Note that the following comments are not aimed at any particular celebs as I think the problem is a general one.

It strikes me that people's expectations for a ballroom dance are much much lower than that for a latin dance. For example, if someone does not use their legs and feet properly in a latin dance, and hence produces a cha cha or rumba with no straightening of the legs or hip action, there will be a number of comments about it. Similarly if we have a flat footed samba or jive with no bounce.

If we have a ballroom dance that is not much in hold then there is an outcry. However if the technique is fundamentally wrong or inadequate and the dance simply doesn't travel across the room due to poor use of standing leg or incorrect footwork, or if after a number of weeks someone is still unable to demonstrate more advanced technique such as sway or swing, then people tend to be less concerned.

It is almost as if we are unwilling to tolerate 'dad dancing' in latin, because it's a bit embarrassing, but happy with 'first wedding dance' standard in ballroom.

This is underlined by the dismissal of the waltz as 'easy' as if it is just a dance you learn, accomplish, and then move on to something more interesting. It is true, if you're not looking to progress much past beginner level, but to dance it well requires quite a lot of power and control. A professional Waltz looks nothing like what you see on Strictly (and don't even get me started on foxtrot) . I was pleased to see Len mention the difficulty involved in the Waltz last night

So what does everyone else think? Do you have lower expectations of the ballroom? Are you more easily pleased?

My expectations are not lower for Ballroom . I think its just that the Brits are expected to be able to do Ballroom better then Latin and generally this seems to be the case taking SCD as an example.

I think most of the celebs treat Latin with a lot more trepidation and its a big bonus if they're good in both .

Hi Paace. I agree that Brits are expected to be better at ballroom that latin (although actually they've had problems staying abreast of both categories competitively). Also people feel more comfortable watching older people dance ballroom, and so for a lot of celebs there is less scope for total embarrassment.

But what I would argue is that the ballroom on Strictly actually is not any better than the latin. It's just people get less stick for turning in a bad ballroom performance. I think viewers now look for particular latin technique such as pressing into the floor to get the hip movement, but not ballroom technique such as getting onto the leg and rolling through the foot to drive forward to get good movement.

Maybe I'm wrong though.

I'm no dancer so I can't really say I know for sure... and I could be off the mark, but.

I think because the Latins tend to involve more movement throughout the body, it's easier to spot where flaws might occur since being out of hold is more exposing I think. Whereas, in a Ballroom, it's harder for a novice to spot certain technical shortcomings and (as you've said) a mediocre effort tends to still be reasonably watchable if a little dull, whilst bad Latins can be more abjectly off-putting and criticism-worthy.

The judges also tend to have scored the Ballroom routines higher on average, which may also influence public perception of these dances.

I think it's simply a case of errors being easier to spot in Latin than ballroom. I think often the celebs receive credit for achieving the 'look' of ballroom - the frame etc. It's much easier to spot errors in the upper body than the footwork, plus the viewers often don't see the feet. Latin is much more exposing because of the focus on the legs in the jive and the hips in the rest (or hips and arms in the paso). If the feet are wrong in the hip action based Latins, then the hips look wrong too. Plus the celebs tend to be more confident if they are near their partner, and ballroom lends itself more to that. Sometimes it's not the technique so much as the celeb looking like they might die of embarrassment in the Latin dances.

I would have thought that (guessing very wildly) adults attending or that have attended salsa classes outnumber adults attending or that have attended ballroom classes by a very substantial margin.

I think it's easier to hide errors in ballroom, especially for female celeb/male pro couples. Get a reasonable looking top line and a big, pretty, error hiding frock and lead very clearly = 34 points.

That doesn't mean I think ballroom is easier than
Latin to do properly, just easier to fake with some smoke, mirrors and a pretty face.

... not to mention lifts

Yes, I agree you are more exposed in Latin. The thing is, you can tell, to some extent, if someone has problems with their footwork by the way they move across the floor. I agree it is more obvious in the lead because often the dancers just don't move much at all, and the movement is not smooth, but it is visible if the follower is being carried round too.

Ha ha, just been watching Len explaining swing and sway!

I agree it is, but at the risk of being rude, I wonder if the reason is that, aside from Len, do the other judges REALLY know what they are looking for ? I think not.
Unless you have trained extensively in Ballroom, how would you know what exactly to look for, to judge. It does go beyond technique.
In Latin, most know about hip movement, although most do not understand how you achieve correct hip action. Most know about the "bounce" in jive on the balls of the feet, samba bounce, isolation etc, so it is quite easy to spot when these are not being done. As the OP states, no-one questions or mentions lack of pressure into the floor, power moving from the standing leg, constant flexed knees rather than straight legs, lowering action etc. The judges make a lot of mistakes when they critique too.

By miles. Ballroom is practically a dead art form. Latin is still living. The idea that more British people know ballroom is bizarre. It's performed, sometimes, in community halls. You find various Latin dances in pubs, clubs as well as gyms and dance classes.

There does seem to be more emphasis on the top-line in Ballroom along with swing & Sway and far fewer comments on footwork, such as heel leads and fleckerls, which used to be a staple of the judges.

Latin is all double bounce, pointed toes, straightened legs and hip action.


More likely to find a Salsa dance class than Ballroom in most local areas. 90% of the people I know who went out to dance ballroom with a partner are dead now.

What name ??, with due respects I think you may be thinking of Ballroom social dancing. Competitive Ballroom dancing is very athletic as well as an art form. Please look at some Pro and Amateur dancing on Youtube for example and you will change your mind, take a look at Kevins sister , Jo and her partner Paolo Bosco.
There is SO much more than stepping round the room. Ballroom dancers are REALLY fit, they spend long hours training, dance classes, ballet and working in the gym to acheive the levels of fitness required. Keeping the backline and shoulder line absolutely stretched up and towards your partner, to keep a perfect top line, takes a lot of effort to make it look easy. Not to mention to power needed from the standing leg, essential for good movement...list is endless.

I would say my expectations for ballroom are higher!

Anyone getting a ballroom at this stage of the competition should wow me considering the amount of time they've spent with their pro partner.

I've mentioned this on another thread - I consider a waltz or a quickstep to be almost a free week for the couple that get them.

Jennifer. That’s an interesting point. A latin teacher who also does some ballroom with me said he found the ballroom far more demanding in terms of physical effort than latin. I have danced cha cha, samba and jive with him in the past, but noticed that when we were rehearsing tango for a competition it got very hot and sweaty (from work, not passion ). If someone is really forcing the dance (which teachers do sometimes to get you to move) it is really quite scary. Nothing like the elegant walk in the park people seem to imagine from some Strictly performances.

In terms of who dances it and where it is danced. I dance ballroom at a school where nearly everyone is under 40 (it is located at a trendy gym in the city though). However I actually didn’t want this to get into a discussion about whether latin or ballroom are better dance forms (I know I can’t stop that if that’s the way people want to go). Obviously people will have different preferences and for me there are some latin dances for which I don’t have much time (cha cha and paso) and some ballroom that I find a bit meh (viennese waltz). However, given that we do have ballroom on Strictly (like it or not) then it should be assessed to the same level as latin.

I guess it just annoys me when people comment on lack of straight legs or hip movement in a cha cha or rumba, but are apparently not at all concerned by lack of floor coverage or lack of smooth continuous movement in ballroom or a frame that continually breaks, (leaving aside appropriate use of ‘no foot rise’ or ‘rise and fall’ and sway or swing).

Fiddly Feltz. I think waltz and quickstep are only a free week if expectations are still at social dance level.

The fact that ballroom is an athletic and competative disciple agrees with my point. It has seized to be a living dance with people going out and innovating and practicising it for enjoyment and feeling it is easy to pick up. There are no charts for the top new foxtrot numbers as there are for salsa. New trends in it don't appear at clubs or parties but in competitions. It is viewed as for specialists not something people pop into the pub to have a go at. It is no longer a living dance that develops through interaction between musicians, dancers and amateurs.

Latin music has its competative side but it is also alive musically and practised still in places where people just meet up to dance for fun (of various ages including kiddies).

Competitive ballroom does develop. It is very different from 10 years ago, say.

Nevertheless, I think it is a fair point you are making about the social aspects, and I’m sure there is a discussion to be had on how dances evolve. However, it doesn’t seem to be all relevant to this discussion, since Strictly is about competitive/performance dancing, not social dancing. Also I’m not convinced there is any feedback from social dancing into competitive cha cha, rumba, samba or jive either . Because Strictly is focussed around competitive/performance dancing there tends to be an expected technique to be followed, at least for the 10 ballroom and latin dances, and my question is about how dances are assessed against that technique.

To be honest, I know that there are many people on here who love the social aspects of salsa and AT say, but although social dancing is a great participatory pastime it doesn’t lend itself that well to being a spectator pastime. In my opinion it would be quite boring watching people dance in a social type style on Strictly. So strictly ATs tend to be performance oriented too (I won’t comment on salsa since I don’t know much about it).

I agree, it's far easier to hide "mistakes" or poor technique in ballroom than it is in the latin dances and, with latin, the different placement of the feet is quite often what makes the dances different from each other and is harder to get right.