please can someone explain to me what Mark has tgat i don't see.

Last week fiona did a good dance with lots of dance content. Mark stomped around with no kicks or flicks. (Previously fiona did an awesome charlston that was under marked IMHO).

This week Mark did a good ballroom, but Ben doea an awesome Charlston with fabulous lifts, but goes out? Mark was walking it, not dancing.

What do the 3 of them see that Craig and i don't??

And please don't say entertainment as i thought the pro judges judged on ability, not entertainment.

They were high on Craig's meds.

There are several Ben outrage threads where you can see that many people thought Ben performed poorly in the DO and that the judges made the correct decision.

You may not agree, but the sheer number of people who did see it that way, ought to give you pause for thought.

although I often agree with his marks cringe at some of his comments can sometimes just be plain wronng

Perhaps they saw what i saw!... That Ben was terrible and made lots of mistakes when he was out of hold!... when he was 'in' hold he was just lifting Kristina like it was an aerobic lesson!....or she was pole dancing around him so it was hiding the fact that he could not dance!...:yawn:

Take out the lifts and what do you have? Not a lot. Smoke and mirrors.

I felt sorry for Kristina, and I have tried to cheer her up by offering to teach her my version of the horizontal jig.

CRH has been the only credible judge since the aftermath of the John Sarjeant fiasco when it was decided the rest of the judging panel would be looking for 'entertainment"

He is the least credible judge.

That's funny, Len only saw 2 mistakes from Ben, and one from Mark. You're not biased by any chance?

Craig makes more sense by using ALL numbers from 1-10.

None of the judges are credible.

What they should do perhaps every year have a show that demonstrates their capabilities to be seen by the public.

Goodman is going by himself being a 'legend in his own mind'.
Tonioli 'Mama mia' man.
Bussell has mood issues.
Harwood lacks finesse.

Finally the judges need to be independant and ignore the narrative of pushing a BBC favoUred through for the finals.

Different people bring different things to the dance. Ben was stronger and fitter. Mark had better timing and showmanship. Both usually have problems with the technique of the dance steps. Either could have gone but Ben did make more mistakes and was often looking at Kristina's feet rather than engaging the audience.

You can criticise any of the judges individually but, to be fair, collectively they do usually put the couples in a sensible order (although don't get me started on the issue of ties).

Is this a message in code, or smoke signals maybe?
Please tell me if it involves the Daleks or Illuminati, I need to find somewhere I can hole out with a good field of fire for my MG-42

Craig is the most sensible with the marking but not always in the dance off.

I'm touched that someone thinks there's even one credible judge...

All the judges are in the entertainment business - Craig just plays 'bad cop' on this particular panel. I find it more frustrating when several faults are pointed out suggesting a score of no more than 7 and out comes the 8/9 paddle

Darcey.

The Charleston isn't about lifts, perhaps if Kristina had concentrated on making sure Ben was getting the correct swivel action in his ankles and the general "loose limb" feel of the Charleston, the judges might have had more to mark him on.

Scant content and wrapping your legs around your partner's neck at every opportunity is not a great look in a Charleston

No Fiona didn't do a great dance she did a reasonable dance that she then mucked up in the dance off.

No Ben did not do an 'awesome' charleston it was really quite dreadful & he was BELOW Mark on the leaderboard. He then made a mess of it in the dance off.

Craig & you are entitled to your opinions but there wrong

OK I won't tell you it is entertainment but will try to explain it another way from the perspective of a regular dancer. I think the BIBs are the key to answering this. Lifts no matter how fabulous are not what dancing is about they are just embellishments.

Oddly dancing is sort of about walking. Its about walking in sympathy with music in a stylised manner. The stylising differs from dance to dance - so Argentine Tango has a different walk to Cha Cha for example.

But irrespective of which style and which walk is adopted some basic things need to be happening to make it dancing as opposed to walking in a weird way. The basic things are guided by the music. In any dance there are places where you can step, and places where you can break and places where you can't. Stepping or breaking in the wrong places relative to the music looks discordant.

A good dancer moves - walks!- to reflect the tempo, rhythm, timing of the music and also works with the phrasing and features in the music - flares, runs, crescendos whatever.

Once this is happening then embellishments such as lifts and other such adornments, dips, spins, turns, kicks, flicks can be added. Most of this list are integral to particular dances such as kicks and flicks in jive, enganches and ganchos in Argentine Tango and so on.

But just because a dance doesn't have them doesn't necessarily make it a bad dance. It may not be a spectacular dance (in the true sense of that word) but it can still be beautiful.

Every time we have a new intake of beginners in our classes they stand there expectantly waiting to be shown how to do the wow wee stuff ( what I call the flash and trash) and a good number are very disappointed to find that they have weeks of walking to learn before they get anywhere near a lift.

Actually we don't teach lifts but if we did in week one and the students were competent we might turn out some good acrobats but they wouldn't be dancers. In my opinion Strictly sets a bad example in that there is far to much reliance on lifting - but to be fair its a TV show and the public want the woo wee moments because they are entertaining.

But they are not the dancing bit. The dancing bit is the walking - but the right sort of walking. In my opinion dancing isn't so much about how it looks but about how it feels. I would rather dance simple steps with someone who chose them to beautifully emphasis elements in the music and executed them to fit the pace, timing, rhythm etc than someone that threw in every flashy move known to man badly executed and slightly off time.

If it feels good to the couple who are dancing there is every chance it will look good to the spectator. The embellishments are just window dressing - or in the case of Kristina, in particular, a smoke screen.

Thanks for this post An Thropologist.

I am biased because of the whole loving a black guy in a white shirt thingy (and rooting for said man) but my simple favourite moment of Saturday was Patrick walking into the start of his dance. Wasn't sure whether to call that acting or dancing (your post helps me) but I found it moving in the same way that Mark's empty hands were moving when Iveta left him at the end of whatever that dance was (AS maybe, waltz? Dunce! ).

'dance isn't about how it looks but about how it feels'

I'm remembering that one.

(Of all the contestants, Patrick seems to me the best walker or the best being still-er. Mark at moments comes close. Of course, unlike you, I know sod all about it )

Thanks for that. Very helpful. I know very little about the techniques but thought Mark's dance looked closer to my idea of what the dance should be.
Sorry to see Ben go though, seemed like a very nice chap and, even as a Scot, I find the idea of an England football World Cup and Rugby World Cup winner in the same family amazing.
He does good stuff in his normal life and gave Strictly a real go,so good on him.

Well you may think you know sod but it seems to me you do yourself a disservice. If you were moved and appreciated some quieter moments that were meant to be moving I think that is evidence of the success of these two contestants. I agree with you as it happens. I think both Patrick and Mark have an apparently instinctive musicality which for me makes watching them pleasurable irrespective of the flashier elements.