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DOTD - A MASSIVE plot hole?


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Old 25-11-2013, 11:04
Simon_Smith3
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I watched the DotD for a second time yesterday and enjoyed it even more (and understood more!) but a MASSIVE plot hole occurred to me that I hope might be explained to me.

The War Doctor steals The Moment, a WOMD that has a conscience. Just when you're about to use it, up pops the interface and does everything in its power (including mucking about with time) to persuade you not to use it.

In this case, it recruits future versions of the Doctor, even sending the War Doctor back into his own timeline, and back and forwards in time. It looks dodgy for a bit, but eventually the Doctor(s) find an alternative solution to the Time War rather than using the weapon to destroy Gallifrey. Happy Ever After, etc.

If that is what happened, then why does the War Doctor (and subsequent Doctors) have a memory of using The Moment, when he never did?

The only answer I can think of is that The Moment is a time traveller. In the first timeline, the War Doctor used the device. But then that asks the question, why did The Moment fail first time around? Did it even try? And if so, why not?

However, that brings another plot hole. Say, in the second timeline, The Moment does persuade the War Doctor NOT to use the device. That logically means The Moment can travel back in time, time and time again, until it persuades whoever is thinking of using the device not to. This can of course take hundreds or even millions of attempts, but it seems unlikely that The Moment will ever give up, UNTIL the user is persuaded not to use it.

In that case, it's a useless weapon, as it cannot be used. So why would anyone be afraid of it?

I'm sure I've missed something, so I'm hoping for an explanation
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Old 25-11-2013, 11:09
Pesimistix
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He had intent to use it and forgot he didnt use it, so he assumed he did.
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Old 25-11-2013, 11:27
BadWolfOne
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He said himself that he wouldn't remember that he didn't destroy Gallifrey and that the last thing he would remember would be trying to use The Moment to end it. From the ninth/tenth or Ecclestone, which ever way you see it, Gallifrey is gone, The Timelords are gone. Unbeknownst to him they're all safe and alive up until the 11th/12th or Matts doctor remembers.
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Old 25-11-2013, 11:31
Abercynon's Arm
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He had intent to use it and forgot he didnt use it, so he assumed he did.
Yes, the paradox was explained by the immediate regeneration of the Doctor and the plain fact that faced with the evidence - that Gallifrey has disappeared and the Daleks have been wiped out - the Doctor assumed the Moment had been used.

What the Doctor does and does not 'remember' (if memory is the same for Time Lords as it is for humans, which is debatable) is a loose affair and always has been. For example, Smith's Doctor says, when the portal opens 'of course, this is where I come in' (at 26:40) suggesting that he's remembering from his experience as the previous incarnation. But that remark is left unqualified.

In short, if we approached memory only from a human perspective, there would be lots of other time-line relationships which would demand comment almost continuously; there simply isn't enough time in the show to do this (not even with the benefit of time travel!)
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Old 25-11-2013, 11:33
TRT1968
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Yes, the paradox was explained by the immediate regeneration of the Doctor and the plain fact that faced with the evidence - that Gallifrey has disappeared and the Daleks have been wiped out - the Doctor assumed the Moment had been used.

What the Doctor does and does not 'remember' (if memory is the same for Time Lords as it is for humans, which is debatable) is a loose affair and always has been. For example, Smith's Doctor says, when the portal opens 'of course, this is where I come in' (at 26:40) suggesting that he's remembering from his experience as the previous incarnation. But that remark is left unqualified.

In short, if we approached memory only from a human perspective, there would be lots of other time-line relationships which would demand comment almost continuously; there simply isn't enough time in the show to do this (not even with the benefit of time travel!)
IIRC there was something about people suddenly remembering things as being in the past in their personal timeline when it was happening to their past selves simultaneously. i.e. you only start to remember it as it's happening/happened to you. Except the Doctor seems to start remembering things a few seconds earlier than humans, as in Time Crash.
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Old 25-11-2013, 11:34
munta
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The way I see it is that nothing altered any timeline at all. What we saw in DOTD always happened that way. We saw it from the view point of Smith and was therefore in his timeline. When Hurt and Tennant left Smiths timeline they forgot what has happened because those were part of the actions of a future doctor and you can't remember something from the future So as far as Hurt and Tennant are concerned they still think they destroyed Gallifrey but they never did in any timeline.

Ok, that still leaves open the issue of a future self being intrinsic to a current selfs life but thats part of the staples of time travel as previously used in past Doctor Who stories, The Adventures of Bill and Ted, Back to the Future and The Flip Side of Dominic Hyde
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Old 25-11-2013, 11:38
Abercynon's Arm
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IIRC there was something about people suddenly remembering things as being in the past in their personal timeline when it was happening to their past selves simultaneously. i.e. you only start to remember it as it's happening/happened to you. Except the Doctor seems to start remembering things a few seconds earlier than humans, as in Time Crash.
Yes, I think this is a pretty standard explanation of deja vu, that we have boxes in our brains which categorise as 'past' 'present' and 'future'; deja vu happens when something which is here and now gets filed incorrectly as 'past'. Fascinating neurology.
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Old 25-11-2013, 11:41
Simon_Smith3
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The way I see it is that nothing altered any timeline at all. What we saw in DOTD always happened that way. We saw it from the view point of Smith and was therefore in his timeline. When Hurt and Tennant left Smiths timeline they forgot what has happened because those were part of the actions of a future doctor and you can't remember something from the future So as far as Hurt and Tennant are concerned they still think they destroyed Gallifrey but they never did in any timeline.
Yes, I think that's the best explanation plus what others had said. The War Doctor had the intent of using the device, but no memory of actually doing so. As Gallifrey and all the Daleks disappeared, he assumed that he had used the device when in fact he did not. Thanks
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Old 25-11-2013, 11:43
drwhoru
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how about the plot hole that by removing the planet gallifray the daleks fired on themselves?

or

that all the doctors turned up at the perfect time to make the planet disappear - but all "forgot" about it?

or

that the doctor has maintained that if the time lords were still alive "he would know"?

or

in the night of the doctor he takes a potion to become the war doctor, the war doctor being a complete dick who doesn't do any real fighting or even end the time war!

or

they've maintained the time war was in time lock, which they've just conveniently forgotten all about?

or that doctors can regenerate into older versions of a former regeneration and hang about in galleries for however long?
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Old 25-11-2013, 11:51
TRT1968
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how about the plot hole that by removing the planet gallifray the daleks fired on themselves?
Well they did and there was a big explosion...

that all the doctors turned up at the perfect time to make the planet disappear - but all "forgot" about it?
The 11th's idea rippled backwards in time, but was forgotten in order to prevent paradox. There is precedent that events in multi-doctor episodes are forgotten, or occur outside of the universe/regeneration depicted

that the doctor has maintained that if the time lords were still alive "he would know"?
Not if they were suspended in a moment of time or, indeed, had even just forgotten they were Time Lords, like Yana.

in the night of the doctor he takes a potion to become the war doctor, the war doctor being a complete dick who doesn't do any real fighting or even end the time war!
The War Doctor seems to have lived a rather full life...

they've maintained the time war was in time lock, which they've just conveniently forgotten all about?
Or that there's a mega-powerful, TARDIS-like weapon capable of breaching time locks, dead locks, transduction barriers, TARDIS screens etc etc... that seems intent on destroying the DALEKS and thus achieving the intent of it's deployer, aka The War Doctor...

or that doctors can regenerate into older versions of a former regeneration and hang about in galleries for however long?
Who knows, eh? The final freedom, the gift of Rassillon, freedom to wander through one's own timeline, choose a regeneration form, eternal boredom. Unless one has a job to do.
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Old 25-11-2013, 11:53
munta
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how about the plot hole that by removing the planet gallifray the daleks fired on themselves?

or

that all the doctors turned up at the perfect time to make the planet disappear - but all "forgot" about it?

or

that the doctor has maintained that if the time lords were still alive "he would know"?

or

in the night of the doctor he takes a potion to become the war doctor, the war doctor being a complete dick who doesn't do any real fighting or even end the time war!

or

they've maintained the time war was in time lock, which they've just conveniently forgotten all about?

or that doctors can regenerate into older versions of a former regeneration and hang about in galleries for however long?
1 - Similar to the Angels in Blink when the tardis disappeared. No different if you ask me.
2 - No issue here as this is what always happened. They forgot because these event occurred in their future timeline.
3 - The time lords exist in a different universe and therefore the Doctor can't sense them.
4 - I don't believe Churchill did any fighting. That doesn't mean he wasn't involved in halting WWII.
5 - The timelock is as good as dead. In The End of Time, they said Gallifrey couldn't return because they would destroy time. Smith Knows this so realises that he effectively killed them. No point explaining this every time Gallifrey is mentioned
6 - Since Tom Baker is obviosuly a future self, its future stories that explain his existance

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Old 25-11-2013, 11:55
Ray_Smith
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A plot hole in a Doctor Who episode? Surely not? That's impossible.

(sarcasm intended)

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Old 25-11-2013, 12:34
drwhoru
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A plot hole in a Doctor Who episode? Surely not? That's impossible.

(sarcasm intended)

hahaha.

i know.
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Old 25-11-2013, 12:42
sebbie3000
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how about the plot hole that by removing the planet gallifray the daleks fired on themselves?

or

that all the doctors turned up at the perfect time to make the planet disappear - but all "forgot" about it?

or

that the doctor has maintained that if the time lords were still alive "he would know"?

or

in the night of the doctor he takes a potion to become the war doctor, the war doctor being a complete dick who doesn't do any real fighting or even end the time war!

or

they've maintained the time war was in time lock, which they've just conveniently forgotten all about?

or that doctors can regenerate into older versions of a former regeneration and hang about in galleries for however long?
Not a single one of those is a plot hole!
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Old 25-11-2013, 12:45
Romola_Des_Loup
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it doesn't set out to persuade you not to use it, it makes clear the consequences if you do.

Obviously, the consequences were not worth the destruction once an alternative had been found, but that alternative depended on the other doctors being involved. That wouldn't have been possible at any point in the doctors personal timeline before 11's contact with Clara. If War doctor had been shown the consequences of using the weapon without that alternative solution (which he would have been, as that solution didn't exist before), he would have had to use it because the consequences of not using it would have been worse. The three of the doctors together almost came up with that same decision. It's not a plot hole if you understand that the Moment does not have an agenda to stop you using it, just for you to realise the consequences if you do.
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Old 25-11-2013, 12:50
drwhoru
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Not a single one of those is a plot hole!
maybe not, but at least half of them are stupid.
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Old 25-11-2013, 13:12
Corwin
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they've maintained the time war was in time lock, which they've just conveniently forgotten all about?

The Time Lock is still in place the only difference is that the Doctor now knows Gallifrey is not behind it.


The Moment is responsible for the Time Lock and even though the Galaxy Killer Part of The Moment wasn't used the Time Lock part had to be.


If there was no Time Lock then the Time War would still be raging throughout Time and Space.


Dalek Caan would not have gone mad trying to break through the Time Lock if it was not there,
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Old 25-11-2013, 13:20
sebbie3000
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maybe not, but at least half of them are stupid.
Stupid?

Not really.

But if you're wanting to watch a show that doesn't have any of those, then I would suggest not watching Doctor Who.

And besides, you've made your own assumptions for half of them, or misunderstood some of the others, so the fact they are 'stupid' to you is, well, your own fault!
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Old 25-11-2013, 13:25
Virgil Tracy
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If you think about it - the Doctor never knew why he survived the 'bomb' , in fact he shouldn't have .

pre-this story the doctor remembers all the horror of war and deciding to do it and going out there into the desert and detonating it , then ... a gap in his memory , regenerating , 400 years of guilt etc.

I think there's a very good reason the bomb is called The Moment , it shows you everything in that moment , helps you etc. but also punishes you because you have decided to destroy billions .

my only real problem with it is that it helps too much , its too much of a deus ex-machina .
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Old 25-11-2013, 13:31
sebbie3000
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If you think about it - the Doctor never knew why he survived the 'bomb' , in fact he shouldn't have .

pre-this story the doctor remembers all the horror of war and deciding to do it and going out there into the desert and detonating it , then ... a gap in his memory , regenerating , 400 years of guilt etc.

I think there's a very good reason the bomb is called The Moment , it shows you everything in that moment , helps you etc. but also punishes you because you have decided to destroy billions .

my only real problem with it is that it helps too much , its too much of a deus ex-machina .
I'm not sure you know what that means. There was no sudden unseen resolution - it was built up throughout the episode. Nothing just suddenly appeared to fix the time war, and nobody just suddenly appeared - without foreshadowing in the plot itself. There was no sudden invention right at the end they could use to fix the problem - that was there from almost the very beginning of the episode.

There was no deus ex machina in DOTD.
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Old 25-11-2013, 13:38
TRT1968
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There was the glorious way they tried to use the sonic in a bizarre and intricate way to solve a problem that didn't exist! It's not always the answer, people.
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Old 25-11-2013, 13:40
Virgil Tracy
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I'm not sure you know what that means. There was no sudden unseen resolution - it was built up throughout the episode. Nothing just suddenly appeared to fix the time war, and nobody just suddenly appeared - without foreshadowing in the plot itself. There was no sudden invention right at the end they could use to fix the problem - that was there from almost the very beginning of the episode.

There was no deus ex machina in DOTD.
they sure did! .

and yeah I know what it means .

I agree - it didn't just turn up at the end , but it did do a lot to nudge the story in the direction the writer wanted it to go .


.
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Old 25-11-2013, 13:48
drwhoru
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Stupid?

Not really.

But if you're wanting to watch a show that doesn't have any of those, then I would suggest not watching Doctor Who.

And besides, you've made your own assumptions for half of them, or misunderstood some of the others, so the fact they are 'stupid' to you is, well, your own fault!
can you be bothered to explain where i have made assumptions and where i have misunderstood?

others have been more helpful in explaining.

from my perspective, the notion that removing the planet being attacked from the line of fire caused all the Daleks to fire on themselves seems basic to be generous and ludicrous if i'm being honest. they also came up with this about 30 seconds after the best idea they had was mass genocide?

why did the doctors all turn up at that point in time, the time war had not occurred from the perspective of the first 7 doctors, right?

the idea that "the moment" can break the time lock is fine, but the doctor would have known this and for the past 3 versions of his regeneration's he has been saying that this is not possible.

maybe it's more lazy than stupid, and you are right. maybe that by expecting things make sense within the shows established logic is wrong of me.
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Old 25-11-2013, 13:49
sebbie3000
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they sure did! .

and yeah I know what it means .

I agree - it didn't just turn up at the end , but it did do a lot to nudge the story in the direction the writer wanted it to go .


.
You missed the next bit:
...and nobody just suddenly appeared - without foreshadowing in the plot itself
Clearly led to in the actual episode... A smaller version of which was used to 'escape' with the sonics of the three of them.

There was no deus ex machina - surely if you know what it is you know there wasn't one.

I don't get your last sentence. The whole point was that The Moment was nudging the Doctor to choose the right path. So... pretty much, yeah - it took the story where the writer wanted it to go.

Which is what all stories do - go where the writer wants it to, that is.

I don't get your issue with that.
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Old 25-11-2013, 14:00
johnnysaucepn
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the idea that "the moment" can break the time lock is fine, but the doctor would have known this and for the past 3 versions of his regeneration's he has been saying that this is not possible.

maybe it's more lazy than stupid, and you are right. maybe that by expecting things make sense within the shows established logic is wrong of me.
Unfortunately, within the show's established continuity, it's well accepted that when the different Doctor incarnations meet, they never remember the events, at least not clearly. Like there's some kind of Uncertainty Principle going on - the closer the Doctor observes his own history, the less detail he sees. They went out of their way to make that point early in the episode, fudging though it may be.

The only way in which the Time Lock was broken was in a) the Time Lord art, which may be explained away as an instant of time stolen out of history before the Lock fell, and so exists only as a memory, and b) the other two Doctors being allowed to join the earlier one. The events of the Time War itself happened, and the Lock fell into place around them as before.
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