What's wrong with ambition?
Nothing. I'm off to invade Poland.
Nothing. I'm off to invade Poland.
What's wrong with ambition?
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Originally Posted by Dragonlady 25:
“SO true, and I wonder if this thread is a thinly veiled attempt for folks to continue in this vein?
The women in SCD get SO much stick for ambition. I wonder if Ben was graciously ambitious as he made his way to play for England?”
“SO true, and I wonder if this thread is a thinly veiled attempt for folks to continue in this vein?
The women in SCD get SO much stick for ambition. I wonder if Ben was graciously ambitious as he made his way to play for England?”
It absolutely wasn't, in fact I wanted to tease out a notion rather than talk about specific people.
A few seasons back I 'took against' one male contestant, i won't saw who as I don't want to get into a discussion into whether I was 'right' or not, based only on how I perceived him on TV, I'd never met him. My other half, quite reasonably, got a bit sick of my saying vile things and hissing to myself whenever he came on screen, and asked why I disliked him so much "...because he so clearly wants to win!". I snapped back. To which my other half responded "and what's wrong with that?". Made me pause, and feel a bit ashamed of myself, especially as I've judged other people that I don't know e.g. friends of friends in the same way.
I still felt an unease about this chap, and have had similar feeling about other people over the years, and have tried to tease it out.I guess on my part it comes down to:
'Trying to be the best you can be' - good.
'Coming over all competitive Dad from the fast show' - bad.
Into which of the two camps we put people comes down to our perceptions and background.
I can honestly say I didn't take it as an attempt to have a go at women in particular, or men in particular, or anyone on SCD 2013 in particular, more a general discussion. Which I have really enjoyed!
Originally Posted by MissT10:
“As a long-time lurker on this forum I often see celebs and professionals criticised for ambition and 'wanting it' (the Glitterball). Now, the consequences of ambition can be bad, e.g.paying someone to whack your rival on the legs with an iron bar (as happened a few years ago in the figure skating world), but why is it wrong to want to win?
This criticism doesn't seem to be sexist, male pros are lashed as much as female ones, although IMHO female celebs get in the neck more than male ones. Is it that as a nation we still prefer the gifted amateur, rather than the person who toils away for years and years before breaking through? We prefer people for whom taking part is more important rather than winning?
I ask this not to 'get at' forum members, celebs or pros, I'm genuinely interested in why it is. On my part, one of the joys of SCD is seeing celebs (talented or not) fall in love with dance, and that doesn't always seem to correlate with (from what we are shown on the VTs) an ambition to win.”
“As a long-time lurker on this forum I often see celebs and professionals criticised for ambition and 'wanting it' (the Glitterball). Now, the consequences of ambition can be bad, e.g.paying someone to whack your rival on the legs with an iron bar (as happened a few years ago in the figure skating world), but why is it wrong to want to win?
This criticism doesn't seem to be sexist, male pros are lashed as much as female ones, although IMHO female celebs get in the neck more than male ones. Is it that as a nation we still prefer the gifted amateur, rather than the person who toils away for years and years before breaking through? We prefer people for whom taking part is more important rather than winning?
I ask this not to 'get at' forum members, celebs or pros, I'm genuinely interested in why it is. On my part, one of the joys of SCD is seeing celebs (talented or not) fall in love with dance, and that doesn't always seem to correlate with (from what we are shown on the VTs) an ambition to win.”
I LOVE the ambition. It's a competition and the millions of viewers are mesmerised BECAUSE of the ambition and a bit of arrogance and a bit of bravado and a lot of passion !
Some people expect pros and celebs to be like them - but they wouldn't be successful if they were like them would they !
Originally Posted by Monaogg:
“The negativity surrounding Natalie combined with her collapse has knocked any ambition out of her. Now it just seems she is enjoying the journey as can be seen by her less polished routines the last couple of shows.”
“The negativity surrounding Natalie combined with her collapse has knocked any ambition out of her. Now it just seems she is enjoying the journey as can be seen by her less polished routines the last couple of shows.”
What journey is that, then? Seems to me that her dancing is at the same high level it was at the beginning of the series... I don't perceive any change really, although the only way to tell would be if she did the same dance again that she did in Week 1, to see if she can do it any better now.
Originally Posted by MissT10:
“Thanks for the replies. I guess we should be thankful that we don't have 'sledging' in SCD
”
“Thanks for the replies. I guess we should be thankful that we don't have 'sledging' in SCD
”
Don't we lol
Originally Posted by MrsGraham:
“What journey is that, then? Seems to me that her dancing is at the same high level it was at the beginning of the series... I don't perceive any change really, although the only way to tell would be if she did the same dance again that she did in Week 1, to see if she can do it any better now.”
“What journey is that, then? Seems to me that her dancing is at the same high level it was at the beginning of the series... I don't perceive any change really, although the only way to tell would be if she did the same dance again that she did in Week 1, to see if she can do it any better now.”
One could also ask the same of Sophie, who has yet to match the wow of the week two Charleston IMO.
Getting the same or better scores with less training time might be worth considering, when looking at Natalie & her dances through the series.
A journey can just be getting from one point to another as simply as possible. Somehow "journey" has become the word used instead of learning experience.
At least I get that Natalie is truly in love with dancing, even if she does polish the shine off.
Originally Posted by MissT10:
“It absolutely wasn't, in fact I wanted to tease out a notion rather than talk about specific people.
A few seasons back I 'took against' one male contestant, i won't saw who as I don't want to get into a discussion into whether I was 'right' or not, based only on how I perceived him on TV, I'd never met him. My other half, quite reasonably, got a bit sick of my saying vile things and hissing to myself whenever he came on screen, and asked why I disliked him so much "...because he so clearly wants to win!". I snapped back. To which my other half responded "and what's wrong with that?". Made me pause, and feel a bit ashamed of myself, especially as I've judged other people that I don't know e.g. friends of friends in the same way.
I still felt an unease about this chap, and have had similar feeling about other people over the years, and have tried to tease it out.I guess on my part it comes down to:
'Trying to be the best you can be' - good.
'Coming over all competitive Dad from the fast show' - bad.
Into which of the two camps we put people comes down to our perceptions and background.”
“It absolutely wasn't, in fact I wanted to tease out a notion rather than talk about specific people.
A few seasons back I 'took against' one male contestant, i won't saw who as I don't want to get into a discussion into whether I was 'right' or not, based only on how I perceived him on TV, I'd never met him. My other half, quite reasonably, got a bit sick of my saying vile things and hissing to myself whenever he came on screen, and asked why I disliked him so much "...because he so clearly wants to win!". I snapped back. To which my other half responded "and what's wrong with that?". Made me pause, and feel a bit ashamed of myself, especially as I've judged other people that I don't know e.g. friends of friends in the same way.
I still felt an unease about this chap, and have had similar feeling about other people over the years, and have tried to tease it out.I guess on my part it comes down to:
'Trying to be the best you can be' - good.
'Coming over all competitive Dad from the fast show' - bad.
Into which of the two camps we put people comes down to our perceptions and background.”
This is a really interesting subject and there have been some equally interesting and thoughtful responses to your original post. I totally agree with the above.
It is, indeed, a very complex area. I think it boils down to the narrative chosen by the producers for each couple, combined with our own individual perceptions. For example, does a VT showing a celeb 'having fun' impress us more than a VT showing the celeb pushing the pro to work harder and do even more training? Does a tearful piece to camera about how much the celeb has fallen in love with dancing move us? Or do we accuse that celeb of being 'fake'?
Susanna is an interesting case - I don't think she's ever come out and said she wants to win, yet my perception is of somebody who is very media savvy and is playing this just right to appeal to the public - hence demonstrating an ambition to win. So that is entirely my own perception based on... what? Prejudice? Probably. I don't know and can't justify why I think that. But the key thing is that, in my heart of hearts, I condemn rather than applaud such ambition. Why? I don't think it's because she's a woman (I confess to the same prejudice about Austin Healey).
I think it's because my perception is that the ambition in these cases is for what winning Strictly can bring them, rather than winning it for its own sake. Fiona Fullerton's piece in the Telegraph about Susanna's ambition confirms this, to an extent.
A great example of the reverse of this is when Kara won series 8. Her tearful piece at the start of the final about how wonderful it would be to lift the glitterball with Artem was (to me) utterly heartfelt and endearing. She wasn't at that point thinking about her future career, even though she was quite open about doing Strictly in the first place because her career was in the doldrums.
Originally Posted by peeve:
“This is a really interesting subject and there have been some equally interesting and thoughtful responses to your original post. I totally agree with the above.
It is, indeed, a very complex area. I think it boils down to the narrative chosen by the producers for each couple, combined with our own individual perceptions. For example, does a VT showing a celeb 'having fun' impress us more than a VT showing the celeb pushing the pro to work harder and do even more training? Does a tearful piece to camera about how much the celeb has fallen in love with dancing move us? Or do we accuse that celeb of being 'fake'?
Susanna is an interesting case - I don't think she's ever come out and said she wants to win, yet my perception is of somebody who is very media savvy and is playing this just right to appeal to the public - hence demonstrating an ambition to win. So that is entirely my own perception based on... what? Prejudice? Probably. I don't know and can't justify why I think that. But the key thing is that, in my heart of hearts, I condemn rather than applaud such ambition. Why? I don't think it's because she's a woman (I confess to the same prejudice about Austin Healey).
I think it's because my perception is that the ambition in these cases is for what winning Strictly can bring them, rather than winning it for its own sake. Fiona Fullerton's piece in the Telegraph about Susanna's ambition confirms this, to an extent.
A great example of the reverse of this is when Kara won series 8. Her tearful piece at the start of the final about how wonderful it would be to lift the glitterball with Artem was (to me) utterly heartfelt and endearing. She wasn't at that point thinking about her future career, even though she was quite open about doing Strictly in the first place because her career was in the doldrums.”
“This is a really interesting subject and there have been some equally interesting and thoughtful responses to your original post. I totally agree with the above.
It is, indeed, a very complex area. I think it boils down to the narrative chosen by the producers for each couple, combined with our own individual perceptions. For example, does a VT showing a celeb 'having fun' impress us more than a VT showing the celeb pushing the pro to work harder and do even more training? Does a tearful piece to camera about how much the celeb has fallen in love with dancing move us? Or do we accuse that celeb of being 'fake'?
Susanna is an interesting case - I don't think she's ever come out and said she wants to win, yet my perception is of somebody who is very media savvy and is playing this just right to appeal to the public - hence demonstrating an ambition to win. So that is entirely my own perception based on... what? Prejudice? Probably. I don't know and can't justify why I think that. But the key thing is that, in my heart of hearts, I condemn rather than applaud such ambition. Why? I don't think it's because she's a woman (I confess to the same prejudice about Austin Healey).
I think it's because my perception is that the ambition in these cases is for what winning Strictly can bring them, rather than winning it for its own sake. Fiona Fullerton's piece in the Telegraph about Susanna's ambition confirms this, to an extent.
A great example of the reverse of this is when Kara won series 8. Her tearful piece at the start of the final about how wonderful it would be to lift the glitterball with Artem was (to me) utterly heartfelt and endearing. She wasn't at that point thinking about her future career, even though she was quite open about doing Strictly in the first place because her career was in the doldrums.”
Some brilliant points here which highlight the difference between ambition and competitiveness. Ambition is a longer term goal where competitiveness is something you can have with yourself, such as wanting to beat your personal best each time you go running or beating the other team at football. The ambition could be to get fit enough to run the marathon or win the league.
On a week by week basis it feels like the celebrities are competing against their own past scores rather than each other. Wanting to keep their professional partner happy and put in the effort to get through another week. The professionals however, do not see it that way. They are there to try and win because this is what they work for and have worked for for years.
Originally Posted by Monaogg:
“One could also ask the same of Sophie, who has yet to match the wow of the week two Charleston IMO.
Getting the same or better scores with less training time might be worth considering, when looking at Natalie & her dances through the series.
A journey can just be getting from one point to another as simply as possible. Somehow "journey" has become the word used instead of learning experience.
At least I get that Natalie is truly in love with dancing, even if she does polish the shine off.”
“One could also ask the same of Sophie, who has yet to match the wow of the week two Charleston IMO.
Getting the same or better scores with less training time might be worth considering, when looking at Natalie & her dances through the series.
A journey can just be getting from one point to another as simply as possible. Somehow "journey" has become the word used instead of learning experience.
At least I get that Natalie is truly in love with dancing, even if she does polish the shine off.”
That's really good point. I think that make Natalie's dance joy to watch, not the technique. I am sad that some people failed to see it.
To me Natalie doesn't came across someone too a ambitious. Or just as ambitious as others. Maybe she practice a lot because she was over excited about dancing in front of people again. Must be her dream come true.
I think 'ambition' is incredibly important. In both big and small ways, and is generally to be lauded.
However, there is a distinction between healthy ambition - working hard, wanting to improve - your lot, your skills, wanting to be the best you can be and successful in what you do etc.
AND
Naked ambition, where success is the only goal and where cheating, manipulation, brown nosing, shifting blame etc. is common.
I think all of us know example of naked ambition, and sometimes when we see 'ambition' we think it MUST include these unpleasant aspects.
Also we see ambition in one sense and 'feeding' into ambition in another sense - so Susannah is an ambitious and successful woman in her JOB - and she then must be ambitious in others areas.
Wheras I see Susannah as a bit of a realist - she may be good at her job, and she's a reasonable dancer, but she KNOWS she's not the best and has some serious faults and doesn't think that she will 'win'.
There is also confusion as to what is 'healthy ambition' and what is 'naked', and many exhibit both sorts.
And I feel there is an element of resentment of successful people, particularly women. This is because success was, in the past, mainly conferred on them by males, by birth or marriage, so 'success' independently in the way it is now is a relatively new thing.
And there is still a sense that these women MUST be tough as boots, and display the nakedest of ambition to succeed in a 'mans world'.
However, there is a distinction between healthy ambition - working hard, wanting to improve - your lot, your skills, wanting to be the best you can be and successful in what you do etc.
AND
Naked ambition, where success is the only goal and where cheating, manipulation, brown nosing, shifting blame etc. is common.
I think all of us know example of naked ambition, and sometimes when we see 'ambition' we think it MUST include these unpleasant aspects.
Also we see ambition in one sense and 'feeding' into ambition in another sense - so Susannah is an ambitious and successful woman in her JOB - and she then must be ambitious in others areas.
Wheras I see Susannah as a bit of a realist - she may be good at her job, and she's a reasonable dancer, but she KNOWS she's not the best and has some serious faults and doesn't think that she will 'win'.
There is also confusion as to what is 'healthy ambition' and what is 'naked', and many exhibit both sorts.
And I feel there is an element of resentment of successful people, particularly women. This is because success was, in the past, mainly conferred on them by males, by birth or marriage, so 'success' independently in the way it is now is a relatively new thing.
And there is still a sense that these women MUST be tough as boots, and display the nakedest of ambition to succeed in a 'mans world'.
Originally Posted by Rhumbatugger:
“I think 'ambition' is incredibly important. In both big and small ways, and is generally to be lauded.
However, there is a distinction between healthy ambition - working hard, wanting to improve - your lot, your skills, wanting to be the best you can be and successful in what you do etc.
AND
Naked ambition, where success is the only goal and where cheating, manipulation, brown nosing, shifting blame etc. is common.
I think all of us know example of naked ambition, and sometimes when we see 'ambition' we think it MUST include these unpleasant aspects.
Also we see ambition in one sense and 'feeding' into ambition in another sense - so Susannah is an ambitious and successful woman in her JOB - and she then must be ambitious in others areas.
Wheras I see Susannah as a bit of a realist - she may be good at her job, and she's a reasonable dancer, but she KNOWS she's not the best and has some serious faults and doesn't think that she will 'win'.
There is also confusion as to what is 'healthy ambition' and what is 'naked', and many exhibit both sorts.
And I feel there is an element of resentment of successful people, particularly women. This is because success was, in the past, mainly conferred on them by males, by birth or marriage, so 'success' independently in the way it is now is a relatively new thing.
And there is still a sense that these women MUST be tough as boots, and display the nakedest of ambition to succeed in a 'mans world'.”
“I think 'ambition' is incredibly important. In both big and small ways, and is generally to be lauded.
However, there is a distinction between healthy ambition - working hard, wanting to improve - your lot, your skills, wanting to be the best you can be and successful in what you do etc.
AND
Naked ambition, where success is the only goal and where cheating, manipulation, brown nosing, shifting blame etc. is common.
I think all of us know example of naked ambition, and sometimes when we see 'ambition' we think it MUST include these unpleasant aspects.
Also we see ambition in one sense and 'feeding' into ambition in another sense - so Susannah is an ambitious and successful woman in her JOB - and she then must be ambitious in others areas.
Wheras I see Susannah as a bit of a realist - she may be good at her job, and she's a reasonable dancer, but she KNOWS she's not the best and has some serious faults and doesn't think that she will 'win'.
There is also confusion as to what is 'healthy ambition' and what is 'naked', and many exhibit both sorts.
And I feel there is an element of resentment of successful people, particularly women. This is because success was, in the past, mainly conferred on them by males, by birth or marriage, so 'success' independently in the way it is now is a relatively new thing.
And there is still a sense that these women MUST be tough as boots, and display the nakedest of ambition to succeed in a 'mans world'.”
Ooh, good point about 'healthy' and 'naked' ambition! And I get what you're saying about ambition in one area not necessarily carrying over into another area, although I still think Susanna may know she's not the best, but equally knows she can win with the public on her side, otherwise known as the Chris Hollins Effect.
BIB - otherwise known as the Gabby Logan Effect...
For the celebs, I don't think ambition on Strictly is just about winning.
The longer a celeb stays in, the more exposure they get and that can be worth a lot to some of them.
I am going to name a name and it is not female
Richard Arnold.
To my mind, he wasn't funny; he wasn't entertaining, but he thought he was. I used to hiss at the telly when he was on.
I felt he was ambitious for his time on Strictly - not to win, but to show the viewing public he was more than a breakfast TV presenter.
And the longer he was there, the more exposure this idea received.
Glad it didn't work
The longer a celeb stays in, the more exposure they get and that can be worth a lot to some of them.
I am going to name a name and it is not female
Richard Arnold.
To my mind, he wasn't funny; he wasn't entertaining, but he thought he was. I used to hiss at the telly when he was on.
I felt he was ambitious for his time on Strictly - not to win, but to show the viewing public he was more than a breakfast TV presenter.
And the longer he was there, the more exposure this idea received.
Glad it didn't work
Originally Posted by Monaogg:
“The negativity surrounding Natalie combined with her collapse has knocked any ambition out of her. Now it just seems she is enjoying the journey as can be seen by her less polished routines the last couple of shows.”
“The negativity surrounding Natalie combined with her collapse has knocked any ambition out of her. Now it just seems she is enjoying the journey as can be seen by her less polished routines the last couple of shows.”
I think she was enjoying the journey to begin with. She has natural ability and Artem is teaching her. The constant beat down and venom thrown at her would make anybody sick. The people doing it don't see themselves as being hateful, they think it's their right to demonize her.
She's a beautiful woman, ambitious, has natural talent and she was given a PRO that can showcase that talent. Sadly it doesn't matter how good she is because the amount of hate that's now coming her way can't be ignored and will have some affect on her. Now when or if she stumbles, the ones bashing her will get their vindication and pile on her some more. I don't think she will win, but I do hope she at least gets runner up.
Originally Posted by idetached:
“I think she was enjoying the journey to begin with. She has natural ability and Artem is teaching her. The constant beat down and venom thrown at her would make anybody sick. The people doing it don't see themselves as being hateful, they think it's their right to demonize her.
She's a beautiful woman, ambitious, has natural talent and she was given a PRO that can showcase that talent. Sadly it doesn't matter how good she is because the amount of hate that's now coming her way can't be ignored and will have some affect on her. Now when or if she stumbles, the ones bashing her will get their vindication and pile on her some more. I don't think she will win, but I do hope she at least gets runner up.”
“I think she was enjoying the journey to begin with. She has natural ability and Artem is teaching her. The constant beat down and venom thrown at her would make anybody sick. The people doing it don't see themselves as being hateful, they think it's their right to demonize her.
She's a beautiful woman, ambitious, has natural talent and she was given a PRO that can showcase that talent. Sadly it doesn't matter how good she is because the amount of hate that's now coming her way can't be ignored and will have some affect on her. Now when or if she stumbles, the ones bashing her will get their vindication and pile on her some more. I don't think she will win, but I do hope she at least gets runner up.”
Agree. Sad that she drove herself to collapse by practicing so much. Still want to see their Jive.
I think every contestant wants to stay in as long as possible, and all probably would like to win the glitterball. The difference seems to be in how well they hide that ambition.
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