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What was first? Day of - or Name of?


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Old 26-11-2013, 19:12
John_McG
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So some people are saying The NAME of the Doctor happens after The DAY of the Doctor - despite being broadcast the other way round?

How can this be the case??

Clara knew Doctor Hurt on Saturday night's 50th 'DAY OF'.
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Old 26-11-2013, 19:14
Blackened1
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I would of thought Name of- because Clara didnt even ask The Doctor who the War Doctor was in Day Of-
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Old 26-11-2013, 19:28
Abomination
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I would say 'Name' before 'Day' because that's the order we were shown them?

As well as that Clara didn't know who the War Doctor was in 'Name'.

And there's the mightily obvious line from Eleven to Ten "I saw Trenzalore, where we're buried"... it's clear the events of 'Name' are past-tense. People are looking into things like this far too much.
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Old 26-11-2013, 19:35
CoalHillJanitor
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For Clara, Name happened before Day.

For the Doctor, Name happened both before and after Day.
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Old 26-11-2013, 19:48
johnnysaucepn
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Name happened before Day. I think people are confused by the Doctor's mention that he's going to end up at Trenzalore, mixing it up with his earlier visit.

For Clara, Name happened before Day.

For the Doctor, Name happened both before and after Day.
Ooh, intriguing. What makes you say that?
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Old 26-11-2013, 19:51
snopaelic
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So how did they get out of the time stream? That's why I assumed day was before name?
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Old 26-11-2013, 19:56
icemetallica8
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Name happened before Day. I think people are confused by the Doctor's mention that he's going to end up at Trenzalore, mixing it up with his earlier visit.


Ooh, intriguing. What makes you say that?
Probably because 2 of his previous incarnations were present
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Old 26-11-2013, 20:16
KnowAll27
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(i'm going to continue to call David Tennant 'Ten' amd Matt Smith 'Eleven' because that's how I think of them!)

I reckon Name happened before Day, from both Clara and The Doctor's perspectives - there's a line when they're in the Tower of London in 1562 when Eleven says 'You've met them before, remember?' and she replies 'Yeah, a bit', implying that events we see in Day take place after Clara and the Doctor enter (and presumably at some point exit?) his timestream at the end of Name.

The discussion between Ten and Eleven at the end :

'I saw Trenzalore, where we're buried. We die in battle among millions'
'That's not how it's supposed to end'
'That's how the story ends - nothing we can do about it'

suggests to me that Eleven has been to Trenzalore, jumped into and out of his timestream with Clara, etc; but that the Trenzalore (actual geographical place that he sttod upon) he visited is far into the future after he dies. From Eleven's perspective though he hasn't yet been to Trenzalore to be buried - so that event hasn't happened yet? (It makes sense in my head!). Therefore the events of Day are, for him, also after Name.

i tend to think that we follow the 'current 'Doctor and his companions in a linear fashion and any other time travelling characters (e.g. River, Jack, Ten in Day) are somewhere in their own respective timelines, but not necessarily later than when we last saw them. Ten in this episode, for example, is clearly pre- the events of End of Time, which was when we last saw him. River was clearly later in her timeline in Library than she was in Hitler, etc.
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Old 26-11-2013, 20:29
snopaelic
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So is the great intelligence dead then?
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Old 26-11-2013, 21:02
Corwin
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So is the great intelligence dead then?
As dead as anyone in a time travel show.


We saw the Great Intelligence die by stepping into the Doctors Time Stream.


But from what point in time was the GI who died?



For all we know the GI who died was from 10,000 years after he was seen in Bells of St John so it's entirely possible that the Doctor will go on to meet a GI who's only 8000 years older than he was in Bells.
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Old 26-11-2013, 21:09
Antimon_Bush
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Eleventh in The Day of the Doctor already knew about Trenzalore (he said to Tenth Doctor that he reached Trenzalore) so The Name of the Doctor. How he escaped from timeline - no idea, it confuses me.
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Old 26-11-2013, 21:25
KnowAll27
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Eleventh in The Day of the Doctor already knew about Trenzalore (he said to Tenth Doctor that he reached Trenzalore) so The Name of the Doctor. How he escaped from timeline - no idea, it confuses me.
I wonder if we'll ever see that?

Obviously the plot demanded that he and Clara get back out of the timeline at some point, so (as we know it has to happen at some point in order to progress the story) I don't think we nevessarily need to see it, although others may disagree.

I call it the 'Batman' argument - in The Dark Knight Rises, we (the audience) know he's going to have to get back to the city at some point to move the story along, so actually seeing it is unnecessary - there's no surprise in how that particular bit of plot is going to end. (My brother and I have argued long and hard about whether we need to see it.) I'd suggest the same is true here - we know they'll exit his timestream eventually so why waste story-time showing it. We've already seen in the montage at the end of Name Of The Doctor that Clara 'beat' the Great Intelligence.
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Old 26-11-2013, 21:41
Anita_Edmunds
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i wonder if they are still in the time stream thingie and these events were not really real just some kind of re-enactment of the interactive kind?
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Old 26-11-2013, 22:14
hopscotch23
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i wonder if they are still in the time stream thingie and these events were not really real just some kind of re-enactment of the interactive kind?
Now that would have been an interesting twist!
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Old 26-11-2013, 22:51
Whovian1109
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i wonder if they are still in the time stream thingie and these events were not really real just some kind of re-enactment of the interactive kind?
That's what I both thought and was hoping for. Gutted it wasn't addressed in the 50th, hopefully it will in the Christmas Special.
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Old 26-11-2013, 23:16
KnowAll27
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It's possible they are still in there I suppose, but then, if it's an interactive re-enactment, would Eleven or Clara not already know that they hadn't destroyed Gallifrey as they'd been further into Eleven's timeline so had some knowledge of what happens next?

Although I suppose with the 'future event amnesia' (that's how I can best describe it) which means War and Ten won't remember what happened, Eleven and Clara are able to observe/interact in events that haven't happened yet but won't remember that they've already witnessed them when the time comes for them to actually happen - although that then opens up the potential for an 'it was all a dream' type cop-out/reversal whereby 10 years down the line Eleven and Clara exit the time stream and Matt Smith starts playingThe Doctor again....
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Old 26-11-2013, 23:16
Abomination
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To sum it up for anyone who is confused, this is the chronological timeline of events according to the Doctor. 'WD' refers to War Doctor for reference, with each number representing that incarnation of the Doctor. I've bolded the bits from The Day of the Doctor.

08 - Runs from the Time War
08 - Regenerates on Karn

WD - Fights in the Time War
WD - Discovers that the Time Lords are plotting 'the final sanction' which would see them rip the Time Vortex apart and become creatures of conciousness alone.
WD - Steals The Moment and plots to end the war by killing every Time Lord and every Dalek.
WD - Encounters Bad Wolf Rose, the interface of The Moment.
WD - Meets 10 and 11 in the events surrounding the Zygon invasion.
WD - Works with all the incarnations (Hartnell-Capaldi) to put Gallifrey in stasis outside of the war.
WD - Bids farwell and regenerates in his TARDIS. He forgets the events involving his multiple selves and only remembers up to the point at which he took The Moment to the barn, assuming he used it to end the war.


09 - (Presumed from Rose) Has various adventures involving Krakatoa, the Titanic and JFK's assassination (these may have in fact occurred post-shop explosion and pre-Jackie's flat).
09 - Sees himself for the first time in Rose's flat... shortly after they first meet.
09 - After many adventures with Rose, she takes on the Bad Wolf persona in The Parting of the Ways. It is this persona that The Moment once took the form of.
09 - Regenerates in in his TARDIS.

10 - Has various adventures with Rose, Martha, Donna. This includes briefly meeting an old Queen Elizabeth with Martha in The Shakespeare Code, who describes The Doctor as her sworn enemy.
10 - Regenerates in The Stolen Earth, producing his Meta-Crisis form who would go with Rose to Pete's World in Journey's End, ending Rose's story.
10 - Travels alone following Donna's memory wipe, at which point he encounters the Zygons during a visit to Queen Elizabeth I. During this encounter, he is confronted by Eleven and the War Doctor, thanks to the Moment. He helps to resolve the Zygon invasion with Eleven and War in contemporary London and then works with all of his incarnations to put Gallifrey in stasis.
10 - Ten returns to the TARDIS and forgets the events involving his multiple selves, likely only recalling back to the point his horse was revealed as a Zygon and he'd sent Elizabeth off, following his proposal to her. It's implied he never returned.

10 - Faces The Master for a second time in his incarnation, which crosses with the plans of the Time Lords. Lead by Rassilon, they plan to initiate the final sanction which will tear the time vortex apart and leave the Time Lords to become creatures of conciousness. 10 thwarts their plans to emerge from the time lock and they go back into the war, joined now by The Master as well.
10 - Regenerates in his TARDIS.

11 - Has various adventures with Amy, Rory, River and Clara.
11 - Following plots by The Silence to assassinate him to prevent him reaching Trenzalore, The Doctor is eventually blackmailed by The Great Intelligence into going to Trenzalore, where it plots to enter the Doctor's time stream to exact revenge on him for his previous success over it.
11 - Clara enters the time stream to save the Doctor, and succeeds. The Doctor then enters it to save her in return, and the pair encounter a conscience manifest of the War Doctor who believes (just as Eleven does) that he used The Moment to end the Time War.
11 - Is summoned to the National Gallery by Kate Stewart to investigate the mystery of the paintings. He is confronted by the time portal to the past, and then remembers it happening whilst he was War and Ten. He works with Ten and War to resolve the Zygon invasion plot, and then with all of his incarnations (Hartnell-Capaldi) to put Gallifrey in stasis.
11 - Bids farwell to Hurt and Tennant who will not recall these events as they enter their corresponding moments within the time stream.
11- Encounters The Curator who hints that The Doctor was successful, and that he could very well go looking for Gallifrey now... the decision is up to him.
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Old 26-11-2013, 23:29
KnowAll27
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One thing I'd maybe suggest is that 09's adventures (Krakatoa, Titanic, JFK etc.) happen within the episode Rose itself - he meets her shortly after regeneration, goes away and has these adventures (hence the internet search results) and then returns again - similar to the times when he didn't see Rory and Amy for a few weeks/months but it's been years for him, or how the events in The Lazarus Experiment start 12 hours after the end of Smith and Jones, but from the perspective of Martha and Ten it's been weeks.

And where do you stand on 11 and Clara - are they still within the timestream, or have they gotten out again? Or are we following one of many Claras and Elevens now running around out there, coexisting simltaneously across all of space and time?
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Old 26-11-2013, 23:39
Abomination
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One thing I'd maybe suggest is that 09's adventures (Krakatoa, Titanic, JFK etc.) happen within the episode Rose itself - he meets her shortly after regeneration, goes away and has these adventures (hence the internet search results) and then returns again - similar to the times when he didn't see Rory and Amy for a few weeks/months but it's been years for him, or how the events in The Lazarus Experiment start 12 hours after the end of Smith and Jones, but from the perspective of Martha and Ten it's been weeks.

And where do you stand on 11 and Clara - are they still within the timestream, or have they gotten out again? Or are we following one of many Claras and Elevens now running around out there, coexisting simltaneously across all of space and time?
I quite like the idea of Eccleston popping off and then coming back quite a bit of time later, even if he was picking up the same adventure again after a massive break

I think for the sake of coherency (and that's a dangerous word in the world of Doctor Who these days!) it's fair to assume that Eleven and Clara got out of the time stream and left Trenzalore. Of course the possibilities are endless, but then it'd add another needless layer to a timey-wimey spaghetti spanning no less than four Doctor's currently, without throwing in anything else to implode our brains
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Old 26-11-2013, 23:46
Stoo2907
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The Doctor is the only person able to simply walk out of his timestream. As he was at Trenzalore he knew he had a future and therefore his story would not end by him walking into his own timestream, however as Clara states, her story ended with her saving the Doctor but the Doctor was able to change this on the basis he has a future....it makes sense in my head....but it also means there are no complications with how the doctor got out, he got out because he chose to get out....I'm sticking with it =P
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Old 26-11-2013, 23:50
DiscoP
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i wonder if they are still in the time stream thingie and these events were not really real just some kind of re-enactment of the interactive kind?
I did wonder that myself at the beginning of the Day of the Doctor when they kept cutting to close up's of Matt's face but I am guessing that they're out of the time stream now.
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Old 27-11-2013, 00:05
DiscoP
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I wonder if we'll ever see that?

Obviously the plot demanded that he and Clara get back out of the timeline at some point, so (as we know it has to happen at some point in order to progress the story) I don't think we nevessarily need to see it, although others may disagree.

I call it the 'Batman' argument - in The Dark Knight Rises, we (the audience) know he's going to have to get back to the city at some point to move the story along, so actually seeing it is unnecessary - there's no surprise in how that particular bit of plot is going to end. (My brother and I have argued long and hard about whether we need to see it.) I'd suggest the same is true here - we know they'll exit his timestream eventually so why waste story-time showing it. We've already seen in the montage at the end of Name Of The Doctor that Clara 'beat' the Great Intelligence.
I think Batman would be a closer comparison if they went from Batman being stuck in the cave to him being in the city with no knowledge of how he escaped. Or worse still, have one film end with Batman being stuck in the cave, leaving the viewer to speculate as to how he will get out of it and then start off the next film with him in the city.

Really I don't feel that we need to see Batman trekking across the desert to get back to the city because it would be quite dull to watch, the same as we didn't need to see the Doctor trekking across Trenzalore to get back to the TARDIS but I do think that they needed to show how he escaped from his time stream. Having a few lines of dialogue between him and Clara about how he knows the way out when it's so dangerous to go in in the first place is an even worse cop out than waving the sonic around to fix the problem, in my opinion.
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Old 27-11-2013, 09:43
johnnysaucepn
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Having a few lines of dialogue between him and Clara about how he knows the way out when it's so dangerous to go in in the first place is an even worse cop out than waving the sonic around to fix the problem, in my opinion.
It's only dangerous if you're messing around with it, and if you don't know the way out. The Doctor was quite laid back about getting in and out.
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Old 27-11-2013, 10:06
snopaelic
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MAybe they'll explain it in the Christmas epesode. Otherwise it's a bit daft
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Old 27-11-2013, 10:24
DiscoP
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It's only dangerous if you're messing around with it, and if you don't know the way out. The Doctor was quite laid back about getting in and out.
You have an encyclopaedic brain johnnysaucepn. I don't know how you retain all this information
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