BIB - Why not? It bothers some people and it doesn't bother others. Joey's genuine/fake/exaggerated stupidity and ignorance bother some people and not others. Coarse language bothers some people and not others. If we all shared the same likes and dislikes, there would be no point in a game show like this or Big Brother.

I know this wasn't at me but this is ridiculous. You realise it's an internet forum right? Also, you've missed the point. Some people are merely point out the same hackneyed old tired lack of equality between certain types of women when they appear on shows like this, and the baseless OTT assumptions made when they dare to commit such heinous crimes as perhaps not collecting as many logs as another.

The 'no matter what' bit is baseless assumption, masquerading as fact.

Well on this we at least partly agree. Pretty sure no one is saying they think all people should be the same.

The main crux of this however you are missing and that is the entirely disproportionate level of OTT dislike that certain types of women get, often (but not always) from other women. I should perhaps have said 'it shouldn't bother people anywhere near to the level that it clearly does'.

This is the phenomenon that interests me.

May I ask why?

Thank you Rhumbatugger, I appreciate that. I enjoy having a grown up debate, with you also.

We don't need to focus specifically on the jungle for this though, but let's go with it for now. I agree male models aren't sent in to the jungle, well not that I can remember but they certainly do sent in attractove males (although this year is a bit lacking I agree!)
Hypothetically, I'd hazard a guess if David Gandy went in there, and didn't pick up logs, or if dared to strip to his waist in the shower, or told people he read emails til the wee small hours, many of those who are criticising Amy wouldn't have the same objections. I also think most men wouldn't care. Some might. but not many. I can't prove this of course, but personally I think I'd be right on this. As I said, attractive women seem to have a much smaller margin for error than anyone else.
What do you think re the Gandy example?

I fully take your points here, but I do not think anyone really ONLY uses their looks in life these days, including Amy.
I certainly do not think that a young girl should be encouraged only to promote her looks over any other talent or natural attribute, whatever that may be. I would argue that young girls should be encouraged to use all the skills available to them, and not to be criticised or looked down on whether they chose to be a model, airline pilot, doctor or nurse.
Is the inequality of it all that really sets the 'feminist' movement back from actually having true equality across the board.

I don't for a second think that there isn't inequality in society today, but then society or the media/ beauty industry should be the target, not the individual.

The thing is we know Lucy has other issues with Amy, because of what Lucy said about Lucy entering beauty contests and (Lucy said to Amy) "looking the way you do".

And the way Lucy handled the e-mail issue, and her comment that Amy cried because she was advised to do it to further her career, also suggest she has a problem with Amy that isn't about chores.

Yet now a lot of people seem to want us to believe it's all really about Amy not pulling her weight in camp, and that she doesn't, so that Lucy's attitude is perfectly reasonable and understandable. Well, I'm not buying it.


Perhaps, but in this forum more people seem to be applying a "princess" stereotype to Amy than a "wicked queen" one to Lucy.

Then there are the posts trying to deflect the point that Amy's being judged unfairly because of her looks by saying she's "using" her looks or, if that doesn't go down well enough, that it's really about using only looks.

I noticed she was pretending to be awfully sweet and acceptable and that she was forever fluffing up her hair and flinging her hair around making us look at her face to see how adorable she is.. I took a kind of dislike to her from the start but most people on here seemed to like her.She gives me the impression she's been spoiled as a child . Not her fault but she could do something to address that unpleasant trait.Get down the creek and do some washing up girl!

That's one way to look at it........

You may indeed, especially as you asked so politely.

I'm one of those guys that is has a genuine interest in how the world works, and more importantly the human mind. I am a keen student (or at least was!) of psychology, inclding social psychology, group dynamics, how society works, and why certain people act or think in certain ways. I find it fascinating. I like to think I'm relatively perceptive and can see things objectively and from all angles. I enjoy having a debate both here and in the real world.

I enjoy DS, and it's interesting to see how differently certain people view things compared to my own perceptions. There are certain topics that I find interesting and this whole inequality thing is one of them.

For me it's not really about Amy or Lucy per se, and I certainly don't lie awake at night and worry about DS, or how I can set the world to rights I promise. It's much more light hearted than that. Oh and I enjoy a challenge!

Gandy, from what I've just looked up, seems a pretty interesting character. He didn't have the grades to be a vet, but got a degree in Marketing, and 'fell into' modelling after a comp. He writes car reviews and blogs and develops apps apparantly, as well as modelling.

I know little about Amy, but I suspect her path has been less interesting.

And even then, I think that actually he WOULD get stick if he did little and showed his bod all the time. Vincent got stick, and gets it on the board, and his tounge is firmly in his cheek and male model he ain't.

I'm pretty sure that if he did nothing, the Alpha types in there wouldn't like it at all, especially if he was also showing his bod all the time. Men aren't that different from women here.

In fact - good looking and useless men are flamin' vilified by other men, especially in working environments.


Lastly - re your last comment:

Society is made up of individuals. And I think each has a personal responsibility for their own part in it.

I wasn't missing your point at all. I get it. It's discussed during every series of BB and every series of IAC. I chose not to respond except to the part where you seemed to be telling people what should or shouldn't bother them, that's all.

And this is exactly why I believe sexism and inequality still exists- the automatic assumption that a beautiful woman who is a model would have a less interesting path than a handsome man who is also a model.

No. I looked her up and I can't find anything.

Also she's been a model and then a beauty queen, so she hasn't had a lot of time to do much else.

What about the rest of my post?

Fair enough lulu to the BIB, but I should point out that I most certainly haven't told anyone anything.

I've merely given my opinion, much like anyone else.

Jeez I kinda think I've already given enough of my opinion on this already but seeing as it's you, I'll oblige!

100% disagree. He may get some stick but I would bet my life that it would in no way be as much as a female would get. Not even close.

Again hugely disagree- there are massive differences betwen the sexes on all manner of things. re his body, most men would joke along or tease him. It wouldn't by and large be bitchy, more piss taking if anything, but to his face. The perceived laziness thing is a different issue

Again I disagree. I won't deny that this can happen, but no where near to the extent that it happens with women.

And on this we agree.
Can I have a rest now please everyone, my fingers are starting to hurt, and this has perhaps been my most unproductive day at work in quite some time. I'll be back.

Well, you said


That sounded (and still sounds) to me like telling people what should and shouldn't bother them. However, I accept that that was not your intention.

I can only say the same thing so many times lulu- I have given my opinion that I do not think it should bother anyone.
That is entirely different to telling people anything. I'm not trying to be rude, but it will get very tiresome very quickly if even basic things like this are misunderstood.

Peace to you all. I've got some work to do!

As I said earlier, to a similar sort of point, Amy should cut off her hair and dress like a nun. That should solve the "hair fluffing" problem.

Though it sounds like she may need to put something over her face as well, since with her hair out of the picture, people might look at her face even more and be even more easily swept away by how adorable she is.

Ah but there lies the problem. Its taken by 'some' people that if the person is attractive then that is the reason, OTT as you put it, that this person gets criticised.

In my younger days I was quite the catch (big head I know) and my mum was a model. My 21 year old daughter is absolutely stunning as well as being an extremely talented musician.
Attractive people breed jealously sometimes in others. But those others tend to be a minority and the messed up few. As a whole most people tend to base their opinions on how a person acts, unless the matter is about looks like in a beauty contest.

Therefore I get a bit tired when the way someone looks is used as an excuse as not to be critical of how they behave as one must only think that way because its about a very beautiful woman.

By the way that is how I think of her as a very beautiful young woman. I also think that she is a lazy young woman that should pull her weight more. I also think that Alfonso comes across as being lazy too and doesn't like being pulled up on it.

Now do I think that way because I'm jealous of them. Or could it be the way its edited. Or even possibly could it be that I just don't like woman in general or men in general that seem to talk a lot.
Or could it be because I'm right.

Who knows.

Just to add I respect the fact that you stuck up for Veri. Twas nice of you and I mean that.

I think the fact that she spends all day sleeping is rude and anti social. Could it be that she only really comes to life at strategic moments that is irritating the others.

Don't forget Lucy is the only person, other than Annabelle, who has confronted her. There are a few men that feel the same way.

Participating in the group as a whole, including conversations is also part of keeping the camp a nice place. I don't think it's all about the washing up.

That said she is still very young and I can't say I would have been different at her age.

Thanks for your reply, and I appreciate your bit at the bottom although I am pretty sure Veri doesn't need me sticking my oar in or fighting their battles. NIce of you to say that though.

I fully accept all your points and can accept that there will be some people who may think that the ONLY reason a pretty girl get's criticised is because they are pretty. From what I can see Veri certainly isn't one of them which was why I replied to you.

Lastly I hjave no doubt that you were, and no doubt still are a bit of a catch- the 'minx' bit in Tominxster gave it away.

I can apprecaiate where you're coming from as we the beautiful people sometimes have it a bit rough from others less fortuinate!

I'm going to sound really sad now. The name comes from 2 of my cats. Thomas and Minxy. One of my boys came up with it.

Then basically our experience differs greatly.

Men can be terrific 'bitches' - although it's usually expressed by irritation and contempt - 'he's a cock' 'thinks he's all that' and much worse are pretty common.

Ok and entirely fair enough. I agree in part- I know some men that are massive 'bitches'. Don't get me wrong, I'm not black and white on this.

I can fully accept that you and indeed others have a different experience/ viewpoint, and respect that.

All I'd ever ask for is the same courtesy back (this isn't at you BTW). That's all.

You don't sound sad at all and that's actually quite a sweet reason for your username. I for one will pretend I don't know the reason though and will think 'minx' when I see your name next. As I say I genuinely appreciated your more than reasoned reply to me earlier.