Is there likely to be any differences in the way that PVR's obtain the Freeview EPG data from the broadcasters? i.e. can the PVR software implement different methods of scanning through the muxes at more frequent intervals to improve data collection or can they process and display the data more effectively. Or is it the case that all PVR's will obtain the same data at the same time and rate so will perform similarly.

Obviously if PVR's store the information differently and for example retain the data when put into standby then this would make a significant difference to the availability of EPG data when first coming out of standby. I undertand that Humax are considering storing the EPG data this way on the 9200. Are there any PVR's on which this is currently implemented in addition to the Topfield with the appropriate TAP?

Colin

And the whole lot falls down when they transmit the wrong time. GRR!

I don't really understand exactly how the Freeview EPG data works, I just know it's not very good compared to my experience with 4TV EPG data... Having said that though, if I were about to buy again now (which I'm not), I'd be looking at Freeview EPG just because 4TV seems to be up in the air with what is happening to it and the PVRs which use it... Inverto seems to be the only one hanging in there even though 4TV was purchased by Thomson. Seems a bit too flaky for my liking, which is unfortunate because it works really well.

I did ask for some advice on here on where to look for a beginners guide to the Freeview EPG but didn't get very far with it. I must try again.

4TV provides EPG data for several Freeview STB's which no doubt provides it with some revenue.

Colin

Good point - I hadn't thought of it that way.

Colin,

You need to bone up on "DVB-SI" and in particular "EIT" table data. That's how "EPG" data is delivered to a box using the DVB (non 4TV) mechanism.

Cliff

I'm not sure an overhaul of the Freeview EPG is definitely confirmed; certainly, the BBC have been experimenting with TV Anytime (and make the data for that downloadable from their web site), and claim to have added some series link meta-data to the existing freeview guide.

Of course, whether or not any manufacturers update their PVRs to take advantage of new data is an open question; some firms didn't update their ordinary boxes to take account of the 7 day guide.

From that point of view, at least the Toppy is hackable by users, so they could do something with a TAP to access extra information, if it were available but ignored by the manufacturer. For other brands, you're going to have to hope that a) there's no royalty payable on interpreting or using the data and b) they think it's worth doing an update, rather than trying to persuade you to buy a new model.

The reliability side of things is tricky; broadcasters are only obliged to carry now and next information; anything else is a bonus. And the mux operators, certainly for Mux 2, often seem to treat EPG data as an afterthought in which there is presumably no shareholder value. Hence the failure of EPG data for ITV/Channel 4 on a semi-regular basis, jolted back into life when viewers complain, because the engineers don't even bother to monitor it, or so it seems.

That's alleviated on many boxes because in fact all data is transmitted on all muxes, so many people don't notice the failure of the Freeview EPG data - their box will pick it up if they tune to a mux where it is working. But I think the operators should be mandated to carry a full EPG on their own mux, rather than just now and next.

Nigel.

OK, I'll don my "conspiracy theorist" hat again and say that my theory (and not that dinosaurs have pointy bits!) is that the main use of multi-day EPG data is for people setting PVR events ahead (not so much for day to day watchers on a simple decoder) and PVR watchers record things and then, horror of horrors!, skip the advert breaks and that the people with most to lose from non-viewing of adverts are those folks that hang out on Mux 2 so whether it's the "engineers don't even bother..." or something more sinister is open to question. How often, for example, have folks noticed serious EPG errors for any of the BBC channels?

Cliff

Well, the ad skipping is certainly one point; I seldom see any ads now that I use the Toppy and record most things instead of watching them live.

I also think that they're being lazy; they know that most boxes will still pick up the EPG from the BBC and other muxes. So why bother making the effort? Lasy off a few engineers, squeeze a bit more bandwidth out of the mux, put some pennies in the pockets of greedy shareholders, and hitch a free ride on the licence fee.

Nigel.

Mux 2 has always been bad for EPG data. Even in the ONdigital days ITV1 and 2 often had no present/following data at the weekends in my region.

As one who is hoping to get rid of my vcr fairly soon I have found this table very useful. But I am concerned about archiving recordings. If the pvr records only to hard disk, then what do you have to do to transfer any programmes for archiving to a DVD so that they can be played on a DVD player? Carry the pvr to connect it to my computer?

The Philips DVDR 7300H seemed to be designed to make archiving simple, but it has just not appeared yet, and possibly never will. It only had one tuner - I am not quite sure whether that is all that important.

Comments would be much appreciated.

TO archive you can either connect to a PC (in the cast of the Topfielf TF5800 or Humax 9200T) or connect to a VCR or DVD Recorder (all machines).

Twin tuners simply allow you to watch one channel whilst recording another. Most twin tuners will allow you to record two channels simultaneously, whils watching a previous recording. It's a far more flexible solution that a single tuner.

Hello emcee, a few updates for the Topfield column in your table:

The Topfield will now allow you to carry on watching recordings where you left off, without a TAP, so long as the current firmware is installed (which came already installed on the one I bought 2 months ago).

The editing features allow you to copy as well as cut.

Recordings can be protected with the system-wide PIN code.

The current firmware version is 5.12.25, I don't know when the next update is due, but it ain't Dec 05.

Think they come in white now as well as black and silver.

There is now a 250GB version.

hth, Andy

I've now read everyone's replies to this and other posts and have now updated the comparison table.

Thanks to everyone who suggested changes.

Suggest that where Topfield is concerned you add some more comments about what a "TAP" is - unless you have one you wouldn't know. It confused me the first time I saw the table.

Excellent effort though, just what people needed.

Found emsee's table
http://www.emsee.co.uk/pvr/
Is there a similar table to compare freeview dvd recorders?
thanks!

There's still one error for the TF5800 - it states that you need a TAP to do resume playback, which is not the case with the latest firmware.

Resume playback is available; you restart playback with the Play button, instead of using OK, which goes to the beginning.

Nigel.

That far from ideal. Most people do not have their PC in the living room and most do not want to have yet another box to record to DVD. What is really needed is a Dual Tuner PVR with Hard Disk and DVDR. Not asking a lot really Is one available ?

There are a few available but I think they are £500+
Panasonic do one or two (if not in their current range then their new range to be launched shortly).
I think JVC & Sony do all-in-one units too (though I'm not completly sure on that).

Its difficult to see how they justify the price. They should be cheaper to produce then a VCR. Seems the current best solution is a two box one Cheap dual tuner PVR with something like an 80Gb Hard disk & a seperate DVD Recorder. Still expensive but a lot cheaper then £500.

They ought to be able to produce a single box solution for under £200. You can buy a PVR & DVD Recorder for about £250. Take out all the cost saving in putting them into one box £200 is easilly achievable. We are being ripped of at £500.

As yet there are NO DUAL-Freeview+HDD+DVDR machines unless you consider either Windows MCE based HTPC machines or the (hopefully) soon to be available www.reelbox.co.uk (Lite). There are some single-Freeview+HDD+DVDR machines as emsee indicates from Sony and Panasonic and they are less than £500 but still pretty expensive for what they are and still SINGLE!

The solution most folks go for is a dual-Freeview+HDD "PVR" and a separate DVDR (with +HDD is best) - you can put that little lot together for under £300 these days but PVR->DVDR transfers will be in realtime (personally I just record one disk each night as I go to bed)

Cliff

As we've said many times on this forum, it's amazing how slow the manufacturers have been to produce something for the UK market. We are suffering because they don't want to produce machines which are unsuitable for use in the wider, European Market!
The slowness to just get one Digital Tuner was bad enough, but to still produce machines with Analogue Tuners is simply a rip-off!
I have a Sony 710 machine which I link to my Sky+ box and therefore have two Digital satellite tuners and one Freeview. I don't subscribe to Sky (except for the £10 function requirement) and am very pleased with the set up. I had the Sky+ for some time before the Sony but had Sony and the others got their act together I would have simply purchased a Hard Disc PVR with DVD (like the 710/910) with two Digital Terrestial Tuners.
Manufacturers are screwing the UK consumer for all they can by continuing to sell us built in redundancy!
Sorry about the moaning!!

The situation with Digital is really crazy. You still have a hell of a job at getting TV's with built in Digital at a sensible price and with small screen TV's its almost impossible.
It just does not make sense building a Digital tuner into a TV is so simple and would add no more then about £10 to the price. The only ones on the market though tend to add £80 to the price.

Its the same thing with PVR's very limit choice, bug ridden and lack the features required.

The obvious product is a Dual Tuner PVR with Hard Disk & DVDR. It would need to sell at about £150 to £199 to get a reasonable market. That price is easilly possible but no one makes them. I think one of the problems is they have got hung up on features which the average user will never use. They need to produce a machine with basic functinality. Vidio Plus would meet the average punters need. Its cheap to impliment and very simple.

Make that £30 but I agree it's mad when they actually charge +£80!

Why stop there? - why not just manually set timers all together and we could wind ALL the way back to 1980 !

Cliff

It can easilly be down for £10. You can buy a cheap STB for not much more. By building it in you do not need all the Retail Packaging, you do not ned the case with LED's etc, You do not need the Cables & Connectors and all the labour etc in assembling it.

I am not suggesting we have a manual PVR which would actually cost more. There is a need for a more basic machine with out all the esoteric features people here want. It adds considerably to the costs and accounts for most of the bugs. Implimenting a Video plus type functionality would be cheap, simple & would meet the needs of 99% of the market. It would enable a Dual Tuner 200G PVR to be sols in the region of a £100 and one with a built in DVDR for about £150. At that price there would be a mass market at present sales of PVR's are very tiny about 200,000 to 250,000 a year.