Our posts crossed, Spin Turn - I agree with you
Artem's choreography
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Originally Posted by Jennifer_F:
“Sorry but I don't agree with your comments about the neck extension causing lower back problems - not if you have correct posture anyway.”
“Sorry but I don't agree with your comments about the neck extension causing lower back problems - not if you have correct posture anyway.”
Why does having correct posture have anything to do with having to have a totally unnatural posture in a dance?
Originally Posted by Jennifer_F:
“Our posts crossed, Spin Turn - I agree with you”
“Our posts crossed, Spin Turn - I agree with you
”
Yes, noticed your post after I posted.
Originally Posted by Skyrah:
“As far as I am aware, the pro's don't pick the songs, they are given to them.
They also have no say in the Theme or Costumes (maybe input in colour).
Basically the only thing the Pros have full control of is the Choreography.”
“As far as I am aware, the pro's don't pick the songs, they are given to them.
They also have no say in the Theme or Costumes (maybe input in colour).
Basically the only thing the Pros have full control of is the Choreography.”
In any given week either the pro, celeb or producers will be responsible for the song choice. I remember that in Alesha's year she chose a couple of her songs, and also remember Nicole Cutler asking for song choices on twitter when she was dancing with John Barnes. 3 pros wanted to use "Moves like Jagger" one year and in the end it went to Ola. Natalie said that the Dreamgirls song was one she'd wanted to use for a while.
While the producers have the final say, it's not like DWTS where every song is chosen for the acts.
The pros also have a say in the outfits their celebs wear, as has been made clear on ITT via the wardrobe segments. The producers make suggestions e.g. in themed weeks, but at the start of the series the pros go to wardrobe and give them a steer regarding the outfits. How many times has Vicky Gill mentioned "Brendan wanted..."?
Originally Posted by Pices-55:
“Why does having correct posture have anything to do with having to have a totally unnatural posture in a dance?”
“Why does having correct posture have anything to do with having to have a totally unnatural posture in a dance?
”
The point Jennifer is making is that you don't bend backwards in ballroom if you adopt the correct posture and so there is no strain on the lower back (at least I've never noticed it). You stretch to the left and then rotate your body.
Originally Posted by Jennifer_F:
“I'm so glad someone started this thread, this has been one of my biggest gripes ( a few others too) about SCD. Artem should have been told long ago, to choreograph the dance he is given or take a risk and receive low scores. I can only imagine, if I was lining up in a comp and Waltz music came on, we decided to turn it into a AS breaking out of hold all over the place, we would be told to leave the floor right then and there.
I really don't understand the judges, particularly Len. He ignored the fact that Artem was dancing a different dance, but he congratulated Brendan on dancing an authentic VW.!! So if he acknowledged the pro dancing what he was given, why not pull up Artem, then reward him with a decent score.”
“I'm so glad someone started this thread, this has been one of my biggest gripes ( a few others too) about SCD. Artem should have been told long ago, to choreograph the dance he is given or take a risk and receive low scores. I can only imagine, if I was lining up in a comp and Waltz music came on, we decided to turn it into a AS breaking out of hold all over the place, we would be told to leave the floor right then and there.
I really don't understand the judges, particularly Len. He ignored the fact that Artem was dancing a different dance, but he congratulated Brendan on dancing an authentic VW.!! So if he acknowledged the pro dancing what he was given, why not pull up Artem, then reward him with a decent score.”
BIB ..........Precisely this. I dislike the inconsistency - if they feel Artem is not adhering to the rules, then they should mark accordingly
Good posture is essential for the balance of the lady and the partnership. You should always be over your own feet, to collect the body weight, If you are stretching over or leaning over in an unnatural way to create what you think is the correct "shape" to try and achieve the large top line, that is wrong.You will be unbalanced
All portions of your back - upper, middle and lower, must line up erect. The "up and over" extention is what you see and is just that, the top danced ( stretched after many years of practice)danced from the man.
All portions of your back - upper, middle and lower, must line up erect. The "up and over" extention is what you see and is just that, the top danced ( stretched after many years of practice)danced from the man.
Originally Posted by Spin turn:
“The point Jennifer is making is that you don't bend backwards in ballroom if you adopt the correct posture and so there is no strain on the lower back (at least I've never noticed it). You stretch to the left and then rotate your body.”
“The point Jennifer is making is that you don't bend backwards in ballroom if you adopt the correct posture and so there is no strain on the lower back (at least I've never noticed it). You stretch to the left and then rotate your body.”
Trouble is for all the celebrities is they are learning a routine rather than a particular style. So the correct posture learned from years of ballroom training is not taught.
Originally Posted by Spin turn:
“The point Jennifer is making is that you don't bend backwards in ballroom if you adopt the correct posture and so there is no strain on the lower back (at least I've never noticed it). You stretch to the left and then rotate your body.”
“The point Jennifer is making is that you don't bend backwards in ballroom if you adopt the correct posture and so there is no strain on the lower back (at least I've never noticed it). You stretch to the left and then rotate your body.”
Sorry but when looking at the correct hold for ballroom the neck is arched back and sideways and the back is arched from the neck down to the base of the spine.It is a totally unnatural posture.
Originally Posted by fridgesoup:
“Hi Smokeychan. I don't think she did specialise in dancing at IC. According to wiki she graduated in 2003 from a three-year course in Acting and Musical Theatre. There's a citation for that info which I haven't followed up, so can't be sure it's correct
. Clearly this course would involve dancing - and perhaps she was able to pursue dance as a specialty within it (I couldn't say) - but it doesn't sound to me that she went there to train as a pro dancer.”
“Hi Smokeychan. I don't think she did specialise in dancing at IC. According to wiki she graduated in 2003 from a three-year course in Acting and Musical Theatre. There's a citation for that info which I haven't followed up, so can't be sure it's correct
. Clearly this course would involve dancing - and perhaps she was able to pursue dance as a specialty within it (I couldn't say) - but it doesn't sound to me that she went there to train as a pro dancer.”
She had lifelong training at a dance school prior to IC. The Performing Arts (AKA Musical Theatre) course at IC desires a certain proficiency in dancing, singing or acting experience is less essential.
Natalie said herself on the launch show, her intent to be a professional dancer was only scuppered at 19 when she suffered a back injury. I don't know why people are still trying to imply she was not trained or training to a professional level, when she herself has admitted it.
Originally Posted by Liza with a Zee:
“Artem is a brilliant choreographer and anyone who can't see that doesn't know anything about dance. He's trying to please the public by creating an exciting story. He knows that's how you stay in the competition. He is also challenging and showcasing Natalie as she's a great dancer. Near the final he will start pleasing the judges with traditional dances.”
“Artem is a brilliant choreographer and anyone who can't see that doesn't know anything about dance. He's trying to please the public by creating an exciting story. He knows that's how you stay in the competition. He is also challenging and showcasing Natalie as she's a great dancer. Near the final he will start pleasing the judges with traditional dances.”
I am not a dance expert but know a little about dance and find your first sentence rude and patronising tbh!! He isn't pleasing me at all with his choreography, I am find myself rolling my eyes when he does so much out of hold and thinking "not again Artem" you can create beautiful and exquisite choreography without bending or breaking the rules, something Artem is doing time and time again
Great thread because I've wanted to gripe about Artem's choreography this series for a while. 
With his choreography and a partner as good as Natalie I was expecting to be wowed every week. Unfortunately I find myself thinking "what's this supposed to be"? As someone-else posted his dances don't seem to follow the basic rules of the competition. Most of his dances this year seem to be show dances, which is great if we were watching the final but, we're not. If anything he's in danger of jeopardising her chances because when she gets to the final we won't be able to differentiate between her AS and her show dance and the element of surprise will be gone. Without a shadow of a doubt Natalie is the best dancer in the competition but, sadly because of the choreography she's losing my support.
This series when I think of the tango I think of Abbey and Aljiaz, when I think of the VW it's Sophie and Brendan, likewise the Charlston. IMHO last night's performances by Sophie and Patrick showed why Artem should get his act together. Technically, Natalie is head and shoulders above both of them but, I would watch Sophie's VW and Patrick's Charlston over Natalie's efforts at the same dances simply because the choreography doesn't scream "sod the rules, look at what we can do".
With his choreography and a partner as good as Natalie I was expecting to be wowed every week. Unfortunately I find myself thinking "what's this supposed to be"? As someone-else posted his dances don't seem to follow the basic rules of the competition. Most of his dances this year seem to be show dances, which is great if we were watching the final but, we're not. If anything he's in danger of jeopardising her chances because when she gets to the final we won't be able to differentiate between her AS and her show dance and the element of surprise will be gone. Without a shadow of a doubt Natalie is the best dancer in the competition but, sadly because of the choreography she's losing my support. This series when I think of the tango I think of Abbey and Aljiaz, when I think of the VW it's Sophie and Brendan, likewise the Charlston. IMHO last night's performances by Sophie and Patrick showed why Artem should get his act together. Technically, Natalie is head and shoulders above both of them but, I would watch Sophie's VW and Patrick's Charlston over Natalie's efforts at the same dances simply because the choreography doesn't scream "sod the rules, look at what we can do".
Originally Posted by Pices-55:
“Sorry but when looking at the correct hold for ballroom the neck is arched back and sideways and the back is arched from the neck down to the base of the spine.It is a totally unnatural posture.”
“Sorry but when looking at the correct hold for ballroom the neck is arched back and sideways and the back is arched from the neck down to the base of the spine.It is a totally unnatural posture.”
Sorry, but I disagree with your description of the correct ballroom hold, specifically the arching of the back.
Originally Posted by Spin turn:
“Sorry, but I disagree with your description of the correct ballroom hold, specifically the arching of the back.”
“Sorry, but I disagree with your description of the correct ballroom hold, specifically the arching of the back.”
Fair enough
Just try the position without arching the back and see what you get..........I did with Hubby and it looked like I was trying to get away from a bad smell.
Originally Posted by Pices-55:
“Fair enoughJust try the position without arching the back and see what you get..........I did with Hubby and it looked like I was trying to get away from a bad smell.”
“Fair enough
Just try the position without arching the back and see what you get..........I did with Hubby and it looked like I was trying to get away from a bad smell.”
I'll see if I can find some guidance online rather than try and describe it
. You really need a dance teacher to be positioning you or otherwise you could have that visual effect I suppose. 
Natalie is a fantastic dancer. Very talented. So if Artem is such a wonderful choreographer why can't he come up with something that tells a story while sticking to the rules?
As an example, I love the VW and was very much looking forward to theirs on Halloween night. What we got was lovely but not a VW so I felt cheated. I could say that about his others dances too.
I too roll my eyes when we get the wafty arms thing he does time and time again. It's second only to Ola's knee slides now.
Tell the bloomin story while dancing the proper steps Artem!!!! Natalie is capable.
As an example, I love the VW and was very much looking forward to theirs on Halloween night. What we got was lovely but not a VW so I felt cheated. I could say that about his others dances too.
I too roll my eyes when we get the wafty arms thing he does time and time again. It's second only to Ola's knee slides now.
Tell the bloomin story while dancing the proper steps Artem!!!! Natalie is capable.
Originally Posted by Smokeychan1:
“She had lifelong training at a dance school prior to IC. The Performing Arts (AKA Musical Theatre) course at IC desires a certain proficiency in dancing, singing or acting experience is less essential.
Natalie said herself on the launch show, her intent to be a professional dancer was only scuppered at 19 when she suffered a back injury. I don't know why people are still trying to imply she was not trained or training to a professional level, when she herself has admitted it.”
“She had lifelong training at a dance school prior to IC. The Performing Arts (AKA Musical Theatre) course at IC desires a certain proficiency in dancing, singing or acting experience is less essential.
Natalie said herself on the launch show, her intent to be a professional dancer was only scuppered at 19 when she suffered a back injury. I don't know why people are still trying to imply she was not trained or training to a professional level, when she herself has admitted it.”
BIB - I am not! You were discussing what Natalie specialised in at Italia Conti with another poster making comparisons with what other Strictly contestants who attended IC studied and said she specialised in dance there, which, it would seem was not the case (unless the wiki entry was wrong). I'm not trying to minimise her experience in any way, but trying to stick to the facts as far as we know them.
Sorry, but Artem is so (do forgive the vulgarity) "up himself" that I simply can't bear it.
Their VW was emphatically NOT a VW and that AS was the usual consummately executed artistic wafting. Decidedly not a fan.
Get over yourself and your "artistry" if you want to win this for your partner, Artem.
Their VW was emphatically NOT a VW and that AS was the usual consummately executed artistic wafting. Decidedly not a fan.
Get over yourself and your "artistry" if you want to win this for your partner, Artem.
Originally Posted by Starpuss:
“Natalie is a fantastic dancer. Very talented. So if Artem is such a wonderful choreographer why can't he come up with something that tells a story while sticking to the rules?
As an example, I love the VW and was very much looking forward to theirs on Halloween night. What we got was lovely but not a VW so I felt cheated. I could say that about his others dances too.
I too roll my eyes when we get the wafty arms thing he does time and time again. It's second only to Ola's knee slides now.
Tell the bloomin story while dancing the proper steps Artem!!!! Natalie is capable.”
“Natalie is a fantastic dancer. Very talented. So if Artem is such a wonderful choreographer why can't he come up with something that tells a story while sticking to the rules?
As an example, I love the VW and was very much looking forward to theirs on Halloween night. What we got was lovely but not a VW so I felt cheated. I could say that about his others dances too.
I too roll my eyes when we get the wafty arms thing he does time and time again. It's second only to Ola's knee slides now.
Tell the bloomin story while dancing the proper steps Artem!!!! Natalie is capable.”
Yes, I've wondered the same. I'm sure there are many capable dancers who can choreograph wonderful dances which actually fit the remit - if Artem isn't good enough, then he should just leave.
Originally Posted by fridgesoup:
“BIB - I am not! You were discussing what Natalie specialised in at Italia Conti with another poster making comparisons with what other Strictly contestants who attended IC studied and said she specialised in dance there, which, it would seem was not the case (unless the wiki entry was wrong). I'm not trying to minimise her experience in any way, but trying to stick to the facts as far as we know them.”
“BIB - I am not! You were discussing what Natalie specialised in at Italia Conti with another poster making comparisons with what other Strictly contestants who attended IC studied and said she specialised in dance there, which, it would seem was not the case (unless the wiki entry was wrong). I'm not trying to minimise her experience in any way, but trying to stick to the facts as far as we know them.”
Pointless exercise on here though
I am a huge fan of Artem's choreography - I was blown away by the never-in-hold AS that he choreographed for Kara and the rarely-in-hold Black Swan routine for Holly. But there was an awful lot of wafting in last night's AS, and side-by-side wafting at that, a lot of which was very reminiscent of his AS with Kara. I must admit I would have liked to have seen something a bit different. Sorry, Artem.
I know that every bad back problem is different, but if I were to stretch to the left and rotate my body, my osteopath would have kittens! I have been told time and again not to rotate, and, as a result, there are some Pilates exercises that I just have to sit out. But I do often hang virtually upside-down from an inversion table, which is a huge help for my lower back problem. I hope Natalie's back is okay and am sure she will b getting expert advice and help to minimise the stress.
Oh, and as for the :yawn: further discussion about Natalie's dance training, I have recently realised that my least favourite of all 11 series was series 7, which Chris Hollins won, and which is unique in that not one single celebrity contestant could have been accused of having previous dance training. At a pinch, Zoe Lucker and Ali Bastian might have done a bit of dancing at drama school, but there were no stage school alumni at all. And yet it was the most boring series of them all. Go figure.
Originally Posted by Spin turn:
“The point Jennifer is making is that you don't bend backwards in ballroom if you adopt the correct posture and so there is no strain on the lower back (at least I've never noticed it). You stretch to the left and then rotate your body.”
“The point Jennifer is making is that you don't bend backwards in ballroom if you adopt the correct posture and so there is no strain on the lower back (at least I've never noticed it). You stretch to the left and then rotate your body.”
I know that every bad back problem is different, but if I were to stretch to the left and rotate my body, my osteopath would have kittens! I have been told time and again not to rotate, and, as a result, there are some Pilates exercises that I just have to sit out. But I do often hang virtually upside-down from an inversion table, which is a huge help for my lower back problem. I hope Natalie's back is okay and am sure she will b getting expert advice and help to minimise the stress.
Oh, and as for the :yawn: further discussion about Natalie's dance training, I have recently realised that my least favourite of all 11 series was series 7, which Chris Hollins won, and which is unique in that not one single celebrity contestant could have been accused of having previous dance training. At a pinch, Zoe Lucker and Ali Bastian might have done a bit of dancing at drama school, but there were no stage school alumni at all. And yet it was the most boring series of them all. Go figure.
Originally Posted by Starpuss:
“Natalie is a fantastic dancer. Very talented. So if Artem is such a wonderful choreographer why can't he come up with something that tells a story while sticking to the rules?
As an example, I love the VW and was very much looking forward to theirs on Halloween night. What we got was lovely but not a VW so I felt cheated. I could say that about his others dances too.
I too roll my eyes when we get the wafty arms thing he does time and time again. It's second only to Ola's knee slides now.
Tell the bloomin story while dancing the proper steps Artem!!!! Natalie is capable.”
“Natalie is a fantastic dancer. Very talented. So if Artem is such a wonderful choreographer why can't he come up with something that tells a story while sticking to the rules?
As an example, I love the VW and was very much looking forward to theirs on Halloween night. What we got was lovely but not a VW so I felt cheated. I could say that about his others dances too.
I too roll my eyes when we get the wafty arms thing he does time and time again. It's second only to Ola's knee slides now.
Tell the bloomin story while dancing the proper steps Artem!!!! Natalie is capable.”
This is how I feel.
Originally Posted by ESPIONdansant:
“Sorry, but Artem is so (do forgive the vulgarity) "up himself" that I simply can't bear it.
Their VW was emphatically NOT a VW and that AS was the usual consummately executed artistic wafting. Decidedly not a fan.
Get over yourself and your "artistry" if you want to win this for your partner, Artem.”
“Sorry, but Artem is so (do forgive the vulgarity) "up himself" that I simply can't bear it.
Their VW was emphatically NOT a VW and that AS was the usual consummately executed artistic wafting. Decidedly not a fan.
Get over yourself and your "artistry" if you want to win this for your partner, Artem.”
And a dash of this. Artem has disappointed and annoyed me before, but this season he's hacked me off.
Natalie is good enough to have done some wonderful things within the confines of each dance.
It's the working within the confines that makes it interesting to me. Otherwise it's all a bit psuedo contemporary ballet and samey damned samey to boot.
didn't see this thread, but commented on another that actually, his choreography is becoming rather repetitive, which is not what i expect from someone apparently so avant garde that he feels the rules don't apply to him. i can only forgive that if brilliance ensues, but if i see that circling, shadow step with windmill arms, tooth flashing to the cameras, out performing his partner with his rather flowery and mannered port de bras once more, i will write him off to the dame edna school of dance.
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