Not everyone Wonkey, far from it- there are many well adjusted, balanced adult females out there, including on here. This is no doubt in my mind however, having seen some of the stuff that goes on in bere that there are also more than enough posters with an entirely irrational OTT dislike.

Some of the most vocal complainers about people using the 'jealousy' word are in fact the most culpable in perpetuating the perception that jealously exists towards many conventionally attractive females on shows like this. The irony cannot be lost here on some people surely?

The 'lies' and 'contraband' have been a convenient smokescreen for some to bash her, and oh how they have bashed! As we all know, the dislike and animosity started well before any of that. If it wasn't this, they would have found something else. I've talked about certain types having far less margin for error on these kind of shows and on these kind of forums.

I also see a number of posters that disliked Amy that seemed to be altogether less hysterical and OTT. Their reasoning was actually, well, quite reasoned. I have no issue with that and these types tend to be rather more convincing to me, as opposed to those that 'doth protest too much'. I've also seem a number of women who, rather than just dismiss what I say as nonsense, actually agree (well at least to an extent). This is refreshing to see on a place like this, and I appreciate it.

Not ALL women who dislike some beautiful women are jealous. SOME however most definitely are. It's the same old same old story again in these kind of forums.

Lastly, the double standards and hypocrisy when it comes to talking about me being patronising/ sneery/ juvenile or any other derogatory thing that people have said, is quite staggering.

Plus ce change.

Don't worry, I can take it on the chin just fine. Nothing anyone says on here will make me lose any sleep honest, but let's not start crying about it or taking the moral high ground when I dare to be abrupt with or dismissive towards posters that are rude to me. (this is NOT at you OR the post I quoted above wonkey).

I am not complaining about people being snide to me, I am complaining at the hypocrisy.

I agree with you on this, there's always the feeling of "It's PC gawn maaad", like some are trying to prove how UNjealous they are by big upping Amy to extremes, when there was no jealousy to start with.

I think the most ironic thing is the show gave us the opportunity to discuss how women treat women, and all we did on threads like this is show how badly we do treat each other. Every time someone says something negative about Amy you see "I bet you're a woman". Every time something negative about Lucy you see "I bet you're a man".

Funny though that IAC should lead to discussions like this, usually we are arguing whether the show itself is a bully making people eat testicles for their dinner.

It's usually the people who are telling others how they should behave and what not to say are the worst

Well thank you lightdragon for your reasoned reply, and for not just dismissing my opinion out of hand or calling me names/ putting me down, being rude or dismissive etc etc. I appreciate this.

You make excellent points re the BIB, and this kind of thing is frustrating for me too- the people that DO chuck out the 'oh you dislike Amy, therefore you must be a woman' or those that say 'you're just jealous' at the drop of a hat, actually do more harm to my actual stance than anyone else on here at times!

As I think I've mentioned before on here- the 'goings on', on these types of forum are often far more more fascinating, insightful and interesting to me than the show itself.

Well I realize it didn't look very nice, but I was talking about that particular post; have a back-handed compliment: I thought it was beneath you. You can do better than putting together two photographs of women in bikinis and suggesting that, ha ha, one of them is older and not as pretty, so OBVIOUSLY she must be jealous.

Actually I think women got blamed for everything.

I am not sure how aware some of Amy's supporters are of how viciously anti-woman they sound - endlessly jeering at women on this forum, using the most derogatory and mysogynistic language to describe women on the programme. What is THAT about? Is there something about supporting a 21 year old beauty queen that makes you hate every other woman?


Richard Madely had a rather bizarre conversation about that this morning. "Why penises and testicles? Why don't they give them ovaries to eat?" he asked, several times.

I don't like either of them.

This is a classic example. Look at what you've written. You are generaliseing here about posters whilst pontificating about people generalising.

You couldn't make this stuff up at times.

For the record, I think NONE of the above. Not a single one. Just making that abuldandly clear before any of these falsehoods are directed at me? Paranoid? Nope. All a little bit used to it all by now? Yes.

Classic hypocrisy.

Clique is neither sexist nor mysogynist. To me a clique is a group of people who stick together and tend to exclude others from their group. The fact that Alfonso referred to the women in there as "they" when talking about Amy's exclusion makes me feel there was a clique spearheaded by Mo and Lucy. The We're OK, she's not OK brigade.

Maybe it's a sign of the times, maybe it's a sign of change, maybe it's first world problems, I'm not sure.

I do like the "you must be jealous" comments though, it breaks things down nicely, that when it comes down to opinion, the only thing that matters is how you look and how you perceive how other people look. Which is basically the problem that Lucy complained about when having the convo with Amy way back when. That Amy is held as a standard of beauty by which people judge everyone else.

IMO Lucy had a point, but she chose to lump it on the shoulders of someone that didn't deserve it. I don't see anything wrong with Amy cashing in on her looks if she wants to.

Just because it doesn't apply to you doesn't mean that there is not a hell of a lot of misogyny on these boards, or in the world in general. It exists. It feels like this year it has been at it's worse. Only my opinion of course.

As I was generalizing about a general attitude, generalizing was appropriate.

There are many exceptions. Although, I am not surprised that you took offence to not being particularly singled out or something.

You ONLY have the assumption that LUCY is jealous of Amy.

Because 'you can feel it radiating off her' apparantly. As well as it being obvious because Amy is prettier, of course.

that seems to be missing my point. It was imrightok who challenged the word 'clique', saying that 'coven' was a better word.

I don't think either of them were justified, but 'coven' was the one which was undeniably sexist and misogynistic.

Al, Vincent and David seemed to be making a point out of the fact that Mo, Lucy, Matthew and Becky were all sitting happily chatting and not with Amy. But one could equally well make a point out of the fact that Al, Vincent and David had sloped off together to the creek for a confi chat. It wasn't a very cliquey camp: pretty well everyone seemed to chat happily to pretty well everyone else.

I am not trying to sound patroinising, but when you look at the repetitive rubbish that get's spouted on here at times, it can sometimes be easier to go down to a rather more base level.

I'm sure you do not want nor require any praise from me, but let me say for the record wonkey- whilst you and I have hugely differing views on things, I respect your posts. I cannot say this about everyone on here. You have also called me out on many things I have written, I of course have no issue with this at all, and in many ways, welcome it. Debate is good after all. I hope that when I have replied to you I have been respectful, if perhaps a little forthright at times. Those that have been rude, dismissive or juvenile to me, I have far less time for. I think that's fair enough.

re me posting the picture, I can explain why I did it if you really want me to. (In a way I DO actually appreciate you saying you thought it was beneath me )

Having said that- YOU also posted a picture of Rebecca Adlinton and asked people to compare it to a second picture of Frankie Boyle. You asked the question- who is prettier.

In a way did you not also do a similar (although admittedly different) thing to me? People comment on how beautiful Rebecca is whilst putting down Frankie Boyle. Why feel the need to denigrate (not you but the people that commented) one human being's appearance, in order to praise the other? Why not just Rebecca on her own?

Now if you genuinely had no clue as to how people may react to the picture of Frankie, and you had no idea the kind of negative things they may say about HIS looks, then that's fair enough. Again, at the risk of sounding patronising- you're way too switched on not to have known IMO. This, it could be argued is beneath you too.

I'm not trying to be obtuse or offend you wonkey I promise (I actually have no problem with comparing Frankie to her per se), I'm merely making a point.

The problem is that some women are just naturally more beautiful than others - it's unfair, but it's just the way life is and always has been. What I disliked was the way she was picked on for just being the way she was. Most young people on the show have been a bit lazy around the camp and the older ones tend to take over with organizing and cooking because they have more experience in that field. But i've never seen a young woman singled out for their laziness in that way or put down for looking glamorous in their bikinis.

Beauty is subjective though.

In fairness, half the problem on the forum is the people that picked on her, did our job for us, and we can not allow that.

Vald I totally agree that there is misogyny on these boards. I am not denying I see it and I am not denying I see the kinds of posters that you, and others find so annoying. I get this. I do not however believe that the numbers of misogynist posts/ posters are anywhere near as large as some people claim. This if course is just MY observation.
I also have seen people (not referring to you) that use the word misogyny incorrectly, and seem to use it at the drop of a hat. This for me is as bad as the people who throw the 'j' word or the 'b' word out with the same casual abandon. (although I do think this is a minority that do this too).

What I DO have an issue with is the double standards and hypocrisy that proliferate these boards at times. People talk about me sounding patronising or dismissive whilst patronising and dismissing me.

It's jealousy, the patronising.

You're so much better at it than anyone else.

I know, because I can see it radiating off the posts.

Thanks. let's support the same person next time.
I did, yes; but obviously I am not suggesting that Boyle is jealous of rebecca's looks. I do genuinely think he is something of a bully: he picks on a very young, shy women who in no way promotes herself as a beauty because he CAN. Having found that it upset her, he did it again. To make it equivalent, you would have to show that Lucy made adverse comments about Amy's looks, which obviously she didn't.

I do think that in general people who use the word 'jealous' have got it wrong. 'Jealousy' is not that common as a motivating factor imo, and when it does occur is most often driven by an incident. So someone might be jealous, for example, if they do a joint trial and everyone makes a huge fuss of the other person.

It seems inexcusable to me when people use it of the viewers. There is absolutely no reason to suppose that beautiful young women are at a disadvantage in IAC: Ashley lost last year by the smallest imaginable margin - less than 1% - to another young, pretty campmate, who was just that bit more relatable imo. Myleene seems to have been popular with almost everyone. Helen Flanagan - well, she was an acquired taste; but I don't think people really disliked her.

Re. the contestants this time round, I don't think any of them were jealous of Amy. Mo seemed very intolerant of her, with the extreme irritation of someone who has worked hard all her life and can't bear to see someone idle. (As I said earlier, I think Amy's social skills were awry here: someone like Ashley would NEVER have been seen lying round in a bikini while everyone else did all the work.) She seemed quite unnecessarily rude; but it would be nice if people would stick to saying "quite unnecessarily rude" rather than 'jealous' or 'hag/witch/coven'. Extreme, poorly controlled irritation is far more common on rtv shows (and in life) than jealousy is.

Women are not some strange, unfathomable different species; like any other gender you care to name - go on, name several - they like people who make them feel good and dislike people who make them feel bad. Someone like Myleene - gorgeous, bouncy, chatty, laughing at everyone's jokes, sympathising with their troubles - was liked by everyone: irrespective of her beauty, she made people feel good about themselves. If Lucy had barked "you're giving the camera a good view of your arse there!" - I am 100% sure she would have laughed, and genuinely not cared. (It was noticeable that on The Wright Stuff this morning, she DIDN'T join in with their 'lucy is a bitch' conversation at all). Amy just didn't quite get there.

Instead of giving Rebecca a little motivational speech about not feeling bad about herself - which was kindly meant, but ineffective - she should just have shown that she took her OWN looks lightly; she should have been far more willing to get mucky. It is very likely that her agent advised her to take the six bikinis and "always look 100%", which was why she was so desperate to keep hold of the forbidden cosmetics; but if so, it was bad advice imo. People who are constantly mucky and sweaty and blotchy and ratty looking are bound to resent someone who lies around beautifying herself all day, in some resepects at their expense. That is not rightly called jealousy, it is irritation, a much less loaded term. I thought David's allocation of the role of pampered corgi to her was interesting, because he HADN'T been hostile to her, and surely isn't going to be accused of jealousy: he spotted, belatedly, how very irritating it was for the workhorses to see her turning up in an endless procession of bikinis, made up and styled; he was probably a bit of a vain man himself with his mane of hair, but he did understand the concept of all being in it together.

Maybe, and I'm only say maybe, because I can't possibly know for sure, you have to have been on the receiving end of it to spot it and find it offensive. Just as only someone who has been bullied really knows what that feels like.

Are you judge jury and executioner re when people are allowed to generalise and when they are not?

I took no offence. I saw hypocrisy worth commenting on. I made my comment. That's it.

We've been here before. More than once. I am not making assumptions, I've given my reasons many times. You are actually the one making assumptions as to how I came to this conclusion. More hypocrisy I'm afraid from you here.

Whilst it's very kind of you to say you think I am better than anyone eles, this is just your opinion. I certainly don't think this and I'm damned sure others don't either. Trust me on that. Oh, hang on... sarcasm right? Well aren't you the clever one

I've been rather patient with you don't you think? Every where I go I see you picking at my posts, almost urging me to respond. I also saw one particularly nasty post you posted very late at night, then probably realised just how many T&C's it broke (it was very personal so it broke several), and replaced it with 'whoops' a few minutes later. Ring any bells? Unfortunately for you, I saw it. I'm not usually the screen grabbing type but what you said was pretty outrageous, and I suspected you'd try and change it.

I am not the type to go running to the mods, even if people are pretty abusive to me- this is just the internet after all right, but it told me pretty much all I need to know about you. (This is NOT a threat, but your ongoing and repetitive interest in me has become tiresome). When I actually have engaged in your repeated and ongoing barbs at me, you cry and run away, then I get several of your 'internet friends' coming at me telling me what a bad person I am for making you cry.

It feels like a school playground at times (although I'm not really the type to get picked on).

Does this post sound patronising? Probably yes.

Have I asked you 3, yes THREE times to back off so we don't escalate and have the same thing happen yet again? Most certainly.

May I ask for the FOURTH time that perhaps we leave it here?

I really don't actually AOTB, I just disagree with you most of the time, and find your posts often very insulting.

This is a small board, and I'll argue with who I want to, including you.

I've seen you refer to me as 'stalker' which is ridiculous, and joke about being 'bullied' which is distasteful.

You call people who disagree with you a 'clique' as well. More than one person disagrees with you okay?

Do you have delusions of grandeur?

Just post sensibly without all this insulting verbiage, and argue like a sensible person.

Lucy went out as soon as the anti-Amy vote ceased to exist (because Amy was out).

It could be that Kian and David were very popular Veri. They seemed so on the board, especially David.

I'll ignore the clear and numerous barbs in the above (yet again), and just say this- you treat me and my right to post an opinion on an internet forum (this IS just the internet for goodness sake) with respect and you will get the same back.

If you do not treat me with respect, then do not be surprised if I'm not all sweetness and light with you back.

To me, that sounds fair.

I'll tell you what - turn it round and then no one will have a problem with you.

You just TALK constantly about manners and 'respect' and you display precious little of either.

When you do, and when and if you argue in a reasonable way instead of getting personal and hysterical, I will have no problem with you.

I have very few problems (if any) on any board I post on, all over the forum and for some years.

Think about it.

And there is always the ignore function.