Everyone came out saying pretty much the same thing about Amy. People who came out actually praised Lucy and talked in a way which we never saw of her on the show sadly.

I don't think it can be disputed that Amy was lazy, its pretty much the consensus of the campmates.

Maybe I see the word differently because in my interpretation of it Matthew would be included. I'd put him near the top of my list, he acted like she was everything wrong with society, while giving Joey a break (maybe because he didn't care, or maybe because he didn't want to come across a bitter numpty poking at someone that had bettered him in two trials).

I understand about the bonding through bitching, I expect that in BB, but never in IAC, I think Mo almost summed up why Amy got what she did with her "Did you know who she was?" diatribe. Amy wasn't "one of them" from day 1. So I completely agree with you on that.

As a sidenote, I don't have a problem with the words "clique" or "coven" tbh, I can see why others might, but it would come down to how people are using it, and who they are including in those groups.

But that was just Mo going off on one; no one else seemed very happy with it, and certainly the women sounded no happier than the men.

And I think the effort to contrive a woman only clique is doomed to fail. Annabel was never part of one at all; indeed, I think she misfired a bit when she tried to do her anti-Amy bit. She kind of called something across the campsite that no one really responded to. She was never close to Mo or Lucy as far as one could see: Matthew was much closer; KIAN seemed closer, and no one has ever tried to put him in a supposed clique. Mo MUST have been nicer than we saw, because they all looked properly upset and astonished when she went, and we barely saw her say anything nice to anyone.

If anyone wants to try and force an anti-Amy clique, I think they will have to work with Lucy, Mo and Matthew; but Matthew wouldn't welcome the idea at all. He didn't seem to be able to bear her, but he liked hanging out with people like Steve and Kian as much as Lucy and Mo. I think, since you are right that we have no nominations to act as a bond, we need to have some degree of physical separation to comprise an actual clique: some evidence that conversations are happening that are not generally inclusive. I think Amy would have rather enjoyed a tiny clique of just her and Joey in the treehouse, only of course he wasn't up for that at all.


I guess there was an element: certainly the fact that David had clearly handed his contraband item in left him free to take the moral high ground over someone who hadn't. It would have made things much more complicated if the voice had summoned someone generally popular and said that they had stuff still hidden. If it had been Kian, who was both popular and respected, I am really not sure how it would have been dealt with by the others.

Nooooooooooooo!! They are not the same thing at all! 'Clique' is an exclusive group of people that does not readily admit others. 'Coven' is a group of WITCHES. Surely you can see that people who always jeer at a group of women as a 'coven' are being pretty woman-hating? And it's so tiresome: in the Celebrity Big Brother with Jade Goody and Shilpa it must have been used thousands of times to describe those who picked on Shilpa: Jade, Jo O' Meara and Danielle Lloyd. Only there weren't three of them: there were four! Jack Tweed got off amazingly scot-free because he did not fit the 'coven' stereotype, being someone in possession of two testicles! And the same is happening here: Matthew was at least as anti-Amy as anyone, but because he was MALE he is somehow out of the loop; he doesn't fit the idea of a coven of witches, Annabel (who was barely close to any of them) does, being in possession of a vagina, so the whole thing gets twisted to fit.

I said I understood why people would have a problem with it. Personally I don't because it's such a stupid word. It almost makes me want to ask if the person saying it believes in witches.

I imagine them having mental images of the witches in Richard III (hmm brainfart, it is that play isn't it?). Yes it's misogynistic, that they are ugly hags (so yet again bringing everything down to looks not content), but it's so ridiculous I can't help but laugh.

Clique is preferable, but if they want to include a male in a "coven" then I can't argue about that word.

As for the Jade situation, I always included Tweedledee (Jack), and Tweedledumb (her mum) in that group.

What utter nonsense.Not women, just certain women .

Just to be clear: I don't have any attachment to it being women-only or to it being strictly speaking a clique (which is one reason I keep bringing it back to "We're OK, she's not OK").

I think some of the men were involved, at least eventually, and Matthew may have been a significant influence from the start.

I think that Annabel was involved and that there was more anti-Amy stuff from her than the one thing you mention, but I didn't bother to remember chapter and verse.

What about certain women?

She was pretty anti-Amy in the bt, and even more so when she was evicted. But she never seemed to pitch it right to me; I don't think the other women ever really warmed to her, and they certainly didn't 'bond' with her over it. If Mo felt uneasy with Amy for speaking so nicely, she was hardly likely to warm to Annabel's cut-glass accent. I do think Annabel struggled with the experience, more than anyone; it was not only bugs and rats she was scared of. She never, ever seemed relaxed except when she was alone with Vincent. He seemed to 'get' her, so they could bicker amusingly together.

No lightdragon, the 3 witches are from Macbeth. Their purpose is to make prophesies as to what will happen to Macbeth and that lead to his downfall.

Amy of course would be Lady Macbeth: Scheming, manipulative, sly, cunning, Machiavellian.......! Or you could have confused Amy with Richard III: Scheming, manipulative, sly, cunning, Machiavellian ....!

Where's the Kian vs. Matthew thread? Or the Alfonso vs. Matthew thread? They shouted a lot louder at each other and, in the case of Alfonso and Matthew 'bitched' about each other far more than any of the women did.

But they're men, God I do worry about sisterhood.

You've hit the nail on the head here. Lucy is undoubtedly a woman made bitter by her own experiences and resents Amy because she represents what she was trying to conform to.

Amy is immature and a little selfish but she's not nasty - she should learn from this and grow up a bit. Hopefully, it won't screw her up so she becomes as bitter as Lucy.

I think Lucy has learned from her experiences how hollow and miserable it is to be just about 'looks'. And wanted Amy to know that her 'heart' was just as important.

And boy does Amy need to understand a bit about sensitive behaviour.

If that's what she wanted, she went the wrong way about it entirely. Why didn't she give her a friendly, sisterly bit of advice, rather than having a go at her?

Those hollow and miserable experiences might just be hers, not what Amy is experiencing.

The time I was talking about she WAS trying to do that.

Even the beauty pageant conversation wasn't as bad as all that, the 'meat' comment was a bit barbed mind, but the rest of it - fine.

Thanks.

Shamefully I only did Lear at school, and Hamlet with my son for his exams. I suppose we could make the women into Goneril, Regan, and Cordelia if we try hard enough.

You really believe Lucy is more beautiful than Amy ?

I'd say Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie was prettier than Lucy tbh .

That's nasty...

He's entitled to his opinion.

That's true , plus I think that my claim is less ridiculous .