We would like to get a dog - we are in the process of buying an old farm building with 6000m2 where we want to retire (in France) so it will have plenty of space. I like long haired breeds and I know both mentioned in thread are great animals. My dad had an alsatian which was a loveable (if with a loud bark) creature but he got arthritis in his back legs. I don't know if they breeders have stopped breeding the dog with the sloping back (the apparent cause of the disability).. Border Collies are also gorgeous and very intelligent...

Anyway, anybody out there with experience about these breeds? What to look out for and so on?

I'd just like to say enjoy your retirement in France, something I'd love to do

I've always had border collies, they are lovely, but they do need to be active and they like to have a job to do, but am sure whatever you choose will love to live where you are going,
hey, get one of each, you have the room

I've got a border collie, and I've studied them for years, partly due to a farming link and partly because their my favourite breed . You say what you want/don't want in a dog and I'll tell you if their for you or not, because believe me, they are most definitely not a breed for everybody, nor are they a good dog for a complete and total novice dog owner. Many, many people buy them, because they are indeed very beautiful and striking to look at, and their attracted to the dog they see competing flawlessly in competitions at Crufts. What they don't see is the hours and hours of work put in to achieving this. They are a extremely intelligent breed, indeed they are the most intelligent of all breeds, having roughly the same IQ as a three year old child, but that intelligence can actually be their own downfall if its not channeled properly in the right direction.

Here's some advice for you on them:

Border collies were bred for one specific purpose - to herd sheep. The instinct that and traits needed to do that can show itself in undesirable ways in a pet dog.
Herding - crouching low to the ground , stalking what it regards as its flock, many pet collies if not taught otherwise, will start herding literally anything that moves, people, other animals, the hoover, mop, bikes, cigarette smoke, lights etc. This can be a dangerous trait if it tries herding moving cars, many collies get killed chasing and nipping at moving tyres.
Nipping - collies are bred to move sheep using more or less whatever it takes. Someone not going or doing what the dog wants can be given the same treatment a stubborn ram would get to make it move, a sudden nip on the heels. Its a very sudden movement, and children can be a particular target, as they are smaller, more in line with the dog's size, and tend to shriek and squeal which excites the dog even more. For this reason, they are not good dogs to have if you have small children. Sensible older children are usually ok, just bear in mind they don't suffer fools gladly and are not afraid of giving a nip to show that.
Eye- collies move sheep by 'eyeing' them. Collie 'eye' is intense, its meant to be so the sheep respond to it, but a collie with a serious work drive can fixate on something and nothing will shift it. Its not so bad if its staring at its own shadow for hours or stopping you move the mop, but a bit more problematic when its got a bunch of people penned in one place and won't let them move!

Border collies are fitness freaks, don't get a collie if your a couch potato who hates being outside! These are dogs born and bred to be out on mountain tops in every condition working tirelessly hour after hour. They are capable of herding sheep up to 18 hours a day, they have incredible stamina and resistance. They will not be happy taken around the block on a lead once a day, they need a good free run at two or three times a week. Of course, if you live on a collie's natural place, a farm with vast fields, exercise isn't as much of a problem!

The type of excercise is equally as important, actually more so than the length of it. Physical stimulation is a must, but mental stimulation is absolutely vital if your to have any chance of a collie being a good and happy house pet. Running most breeds ragged around the pond in the park will wear them out, this won't work for a collie. The only way you would satisfy a collie just by running it is if you were training for a marathon, it is out of most people's physical capability to do so. It also doesn't work to tire them out, in fact it makes them hyper as their getting more and more worked up without using their brain. And this is why mental stimulation is so important. Collies are a breed bred to work, but also to work on their own up to a mile away from the shepherd, using their own brain to do so. If sheep were on a cliff edge half a mile away from an accessible point to a human, their able to be sent to gather them in relying on whistles and their own intuition to get around any problems that arise. A dog that is capable of that is never going to be content with learning only sit, stay and here, its like putting a high schooler in preschool to write their abc's. But this where collies come into their own, Agility, Flyball, Heelwork to Music ( doggy dancing), Obedience, working trials, sheepdog trialling, trick training, every single dog sport going they can do it and do it just that bit better than everything else too. In fact they excell so much, many sports will put them in their own category and have ABC (anything but a collie) categories to give other breeds a chance! If you want to partake or tryout doggie sports you will not find nor get a better breed, their lightening quick minds and body built to turn on the spot in a nanosecond makes them literally built for the tasks. Even if you don't want to do it competitively, their a great way to use up surplus energy, keep that ever active mind occupied, and grow a closer bond with your dog.

All that intelligence has a downside though. A dog that smart is not going to be happy left on its own in the house for hours. Having so much energy and a burning need to work and be kept busy, if you don't see to that need and channel it properly, you can have a living nightmare on your hands. They can completely destroy the house through boredom and frustration, and quite literally go out of their minds, pacing back and forth like a caged tiger, bouncing off the walls, barking incessantly with frustration, and being generally mad. Countless people buy a cute fluffy collie puppy that ends up in rescue when the dog reaches about 6-8 months because 'he's uncontrollable, barking, leaping off the walls, can't sit still and we just can't tire him out, he's wrecking the house and were at the end of our tether'. Usually because the owners a) bought a collie without understanding them, b) got a dog as far unsuitable for them as possible and c) went for looks alone and what they'd seen on tv, without taking into account the collie's nature and the work that goes into those tv performances.

Collies are not good for novice or first time dog owners. Because their that bit smarter than other breeds, they need someone with experience to be that much smarter than them. This is a breed that is the Mensa member of the dog world. They will learn things extremely quickly, unfortunately they also learn the wrong things just as fast. They will quickly realise if your not up to the job of keeping them in line and will then run rings around you. They will start training you if you don't remain one step ahead of them. Their ability and generations of training to be acutely aware of the slightest movement from sheep and always on the lookout for the next instruction, means they are highly tuned to you, can read your body language like a book and aware of the slightest thing.

This might seem a very negative image I've portrayed on them, but far too many are in rescue centres because people didn't research them enough. Under the correct training and handling they are quite simply unsurpassable, bred to work with only one master their loyal to a fault and you will not find a better, smarter, more willing friend and companion, they live to work and carry out the commands given them to please their owners. In the wrong circumstances, they can be the worst possible breed you'd ever get, collies are weird, and as such their quirks and problems can be weird. Put simply, in the right hands their unbeatable but in the wrong hands they can be unbearable.

10 questions to ask yourself before buying a collie:

1. Am I willing to go out in all weathers to excercise a dog, for up to an hour or more?
2. Am I willing to put a lot of time and effort into training a dog, more so than any other breed would require?
3. Collies are fast movers with a very high chase drive, will I be able to control one?
4. Collies have a double coat and are heavy shedders, can I deal with all that dog hair?
5. Do I have the time, patience and inclination to train a dog more than just four basic commands?
6. Does my lifestyle suit a active, workaholic breed of dog?
7. Am I prepared to deal with problems that may arise due to the collie's nature, ie 'eyeing' things?
8. Collies are fast, bouncy, have the energy of about 10 dogs in one and are rarely still for long, can I deal with this whirlwind in my home?
9. These are not home alone dogs, at least not if you still want a house to come home to. Am I out for good chunks of the day?
10. Collies have habits from their working traits, such as always being alert, jumping up as soon as the owner moves ready for action, compulsive, being constantly 'busy'. Collie owners find these traits charming and endearing, non owners find it annoying and irritating. Would I mind a dog like this?

If your set on a collie, one bred from show stock is a far better choice for a pet than one from a farm. All collies have the working instinct, but in show stock it is much milder due to generations of being bred for showing. Collies are generally a fit, hardy breed with few health issues, but a pedigree KC reg border collie should be health screened/checked for CEA ( Collie Eye Anomaly), PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy) and HD (Hip Dysplasia). Some can also suffer from Epilepsy, but a good decent breeder would not breed from a dog with this.


German shepherds (Alsatians) are also prone to hip and elbow dysplasia, amongst other complaints. The back issue your referring to is a sloping topline, which is for some reason a desired look in the show world. They have had to make it less dramatic though, some were resembling frogs with it, but its still there. Working line dogs, which is what the Police, Army etc use have a lovely proper straight back, so if you want a shepherd, I personally would go for one from a working line not a showing one.

I hope that's helped you a bit, if you want to know anything else just ask.

Excellent post CollieWobbles for folks who know nothing about collies, apart from thinking they look cute.

My gorgeous border collie will be 14 soon. I only hope I have as much energy as her when I get to the human equivalent. Collies often go on to a good age - say 15 or 16+ - so fingers crossed.
Not all collies are heavy shedders. Mine is the short haired variety (yes there is such a thing) so grooming and shedding are not so much of an issue.
She never did nip but when younger did display the rounding up behaviour.
She is a lovely intelligent dog and very social. She wants to meet and greet everyone. Collies like company and interaction and imo it's not fair to have one if they are constantly going to be left alone for long periods.
My collie is definitely true to form in that she desperately wants to please. I learnt early on that any hint of displeasure from me would genuinely upset her. She is so attuned to my every move it often feels like she can read my mind.

Thanks, Rocket Queen, I think we may have found what we want.. and becasue it has some land we think a dog would be a great idea, it's just which one!



Many thanks Collie() Wobbles for your comprehensive overview. I know BCs are very intelligent - my uncle once had a Labrador-Collie mix male dog and a female Border Collie. Out on walks with them both, the male dog tended to catch the ball first because he was faster but would leave it several yards away from you whereas the female would then pick it up and drop it at your feet. She was, as you say, always glad to please and very smart. She would think nothing of diving into a bed of nettles to retrieve the ball when the male dog baulked and refused to go for it.

We also witnessed the "herding" instinct recently when walking out one day near some farm buildings. We saw a little group of chicks being herded by a Border Collie; each time the little group moved around, the Collie would circle them, then crouch and wait. It was very cute. I must admit I hadn't realised that this "sheep herding" thing could be applied to anything that moved. I hope my dog will keep me company and keep an eye out for intruders but not nip me when I am hoovering!

It had not occurred to me at all that I may very well have to keep my dog mentally active by giving it a task. We will be in our 60s so training a dog for any "job" would probably be too physically strenuous - I certainly do not believe in having a pet dog if I can't meet its needs. The relationship is not only about me and I can never understand people who get a (big) dog then leave it alone for hours. I think that is sad and frankly, wrong.

So, all in all, your info has been very revealing and I think we must take care in our choice. An unhappy Border Collie is not what I want! It may well be back to the drawing board, although I am as guilty as the next for finding them adorable and attractive looking dogs.

Thanks again for your time!

T.

Interesting that she is a she! Sometmes I wonder if female dogs are not just that tad smarter? But one must not generalise!

Thank you There's just so, so many of these dogs in rescue because people buy them without realising what their taking on. Buying any dog is a huge task and commitment, but buying a dog specifically bred to have the strongest work ethic possible, requires extra thought as they need even more commitment than any other breed. Even people with the best will in the world can find themselves out of their depths if they don't realise exactly what they've taken on and the dog is just too intense for them. Collies need someone who understands what makes them 'tick', if you don't and fail to provide what they need, you can end up with a seriously problematic dog.


You are welcome Tiggywink, I'm glad you have found it helpful. Mental activity is the single most important thing a collie needs, and as I've said, unlike other breeds, just fetching a ball won't cut it. Unless you get the one off whose not bothered, which your only going to get by chance, they need to be kept busy, otherwise they will take it upon themselves to find something to do, and its not usually something an owner wants. Digging holes in the garden, pulling the stuffing out of the sofa, even ripping all the wallpaper off all the way around as far as the dog can reach, are the kinds of things they can get up to in an attempt to satisfy the burning need to work. You definitely don't want an unhappy collie, and nor will your house! If they get enough exercise, and you don't want to do any of the dog sports, you can do other things to keep the dog busy and give them a job to do, teaching them to retrieve objects (paper, slippers, etc) for you, 'tidying' putting things away, tracking a treat or toy hidden in the room etc, just as long as its something as 'work' for them. If you know for a fact that you will not be able to do this, or provide an outlet for a collie's boundless energy, they are not going to be a very good choice for you.

If you are drawn to the collie type and looks, and you like long haired dogs, a good alternative is a Rough Collie ( like Lassie). These are intelligent and look attractive, but unlike the borders, they make better pets. They don't have the same desire to work, because the border was discovered to be a far better dog for working, so people concentrated on breeding them to be work focused, and the Rough collie was bred mainly as a companion. After gaining huge following with the Lassie films, their a very popular show dog and pet. They don't need as much exercise as a border, but you do have to willing to keep on top of the grooming, they need regular brushing or will become a matted tangled mess. If you are thinking of a border or shepherd, you might want to consider a rough collie, given their around the same size, levels of intelligence and similar grooming requirements/coat type.

I agree do
Lie. We've just had to into our center as they are too hard to handle. Lovely dogs. Up so much to take on. Mum has a gsd collie cross, now 14 and awesome but the first few puppy years (yes years!) were he'll! He was a. Nevertheless being supply of energy who never stopped! More so than any other dog I've had. He would never be sent back as we aren't like that but it would make me think twice about a Collie pup again,

I agree with you. I adore the breed, and love all the little quirks that make them unique, but if I didn't, and didn't know anything about dogs, and had bought a collie as a pet, I can honestly say I would not have one again. There's a saying that collies that make good pets have owners that make good collie owners. They work because the owner understands their dog, understand the nature of the breed, understands what they require and why they behave and act in a certain way. If you know what a collie is, you know what to expect, what your likely to have to deal with, and how to do so. And yes, the puppy years is true, whereas most breeds have generally calmed down by 2, collies tend to remain almost puppy-like until about 6 or even older!

Blimey, I am so glad I know all this now. It is pretty obvious to me that I wouln't be doing a border collie any favours - I will leve it to the suitable owners.

Yes, the rough collie is pretty but maybe there is too much hair!

A collie is less likely to attack its owners. I wouldnt have an alsatian.

Have a look at a Belgian shepherd - wonderful intelligent dogs that make great pets, soft as muck but put on a good show! I adore them. Very kind and gentle and willing to please.

There is also the short haired collie (Lassie type), that might suit you?

A badly bought up dog of any breed can attack its owners, it is the way their bred, reared and trained that counts. Alsatians/GSD's can be as soft, loving and faithful as any other dog if their bought up right. It's not what's on the lead but whose holding it that counts.


Yes, the smooth collie is exactly the same dog as a rough collie minus the huge coat! As Tiggywink say they like longer haired breeds though I think a Smooth collie might be a bit too short. If size isn't an issue, a Shetland Sheepdog is a good choice for people drawn to collies, fluffy, not too much grooming like the rough collie, happy to take whatever exercise you can offer, intelligent, loyal and good natured.

Well, my dad had a long haired alsatian for several years from a pup and he was as daft as a brush, loud bark but totally harmless. He hated the postman, however, but otherwise was really family friendly. He loved his walks on the beach and was crazy about sticks, the bigger the better. He had a whole collection outside the front door.

I'd have one any day, but I have to consider the stength of such a big animal. I can't have him pulling me over so it would have to be taught to walk to heel.

I had a BC, they are fabulous but very high maintenance. Excellent advice/info from Colliewobbles.