That was good to watch. No lifts I see. I love generating 180 to 360 degree voleos (if nobody is likely to get spiked by a heel)

The thing is in SCD AT and Salsa it is not a question of pros making mistakes to be laughed at or to be sympathetic to. We are not laughing at a lack of skill.

Most of the pros are clueless at these dances and so are the judges. They are faking it. And faking it very well. But even a once or twice a week improver or intermediate social Salsa or AT dancer can tell they are faking it.

I suspect in Ballroom and Latin the pros are making a decent attempt at the dances and teaching a fair representation of them. They are seldom doing that in Salsa and AT. It is not a question of competence. They are simply faking it. But quite competent at presenting a fake.

I don't know if any leader has sung to you during a tango. I sang along to this lullaby a few weeks ago. Nobody else could hear me I suspect. I was in very close embrace throughout and whispered it into her ear. She was Argentine and loved it saying her father sang it to her as a girl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tlq2rgHQOA

[I remember Jennifer getting criticised for that ]

Oh dear this happy thread has taken a twist. I am not sure if my posts are included in those you censure Jennifer but if I might explain my stand on this and why I am often critical of SCD AT and even more salsa. I have a hunch you will be sympathetic and probably empathetic.

In the first place it feels like they are treated as second class citizens against the other proper ballroom dances. That might be justified because as far as I am aware neither are codified in the way I believe ( perhaps wrongly and feel free to correct me) that the international 10 dances are codified. My perception is that for the 10 dances there is an internationally recognised way/standard to do each and every step which allows one dancer to be measured against another.

As far as I know this does not exist for salsa or for AT. It seems to me the vast majority of social dancers of these styles learn from hobbists rather than from IDTA (is it?) teachers. But for me this should not relegate them to inferior - just different. So that is one bug bear particularly with AT where SCD seem to think they can cobble together any old look alike performance, throw in some lights and atmospherics and voila its an AT the judges wet their knickers over. It seems that there is no need to show any of the technique that allows the step to happen.

I know how hard it is and I know that someone can't learn to lead and follow in 4 days ( although I help teach AT to drama students from time to time and its astounding how far they get in 15 hours tuition spread over 5 weeks. SO I have higher expectations of some of the SCD celebs who are deemed to have 'made it' in the biz. I expect them to be at least as good as 'my' students who may never make it).

The problem I have with SCD faking dances is the difficulty it brings us when it comes to social classes. SCD is great because we always get a surge of new people inspired by SCD. Lovely. But they come with wildly false expectations. Not so lovely. We could of course teach them a little routine a la Strictly but what possible use would that serve? So instead we take them on a painstaking journey which starts with hours put into teaching people to walk in a strange, uncomfortable and frankly bizarre way (then there is frame posture etc before you get to steps/patterns). The aim is not to turn out performers and competition winners but to turn out social dancers who can get up with any partner and enjoy a dance around the floor to any piece of music.

The students of course expect to be performing kicks, hooks and displacements in two weeks and their reactions when they find out that isn’t going to happen are generally not good. I would estimate only 10 – 20% accept the reality and bite the bullet to engage in the journey of learning.

So it is the false expectations and false hope as much as anything that I have an issue with when it comes to SCD. As you teach ( I think?) I would guess that you encounter this too and can identify with the motive behind our some of our criticisms even if the expression of the same seems mean minded.

I haven't even mentioned salsa which while much easier than AT gets a really bum wrap on SCD and is in fact my first and primary love ( Cuban of course) but this post is long enough already and the thread is about AT

We seem to be going round in circles on this, as this has been broached before in the last few days where I also said that the ballroom and latin dances were also "faked" as they were not lead / followed,ie they were choreographed pieces to set music. The pro of course can lead but the celeb would neither be able to lead or follow.
Anyhow I'll leave you AT'ers to it !

This is to technical for me.

Here you are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOYbtIQ2tSA

Thank you henry

What an excellent post Throp! It is a shame when perfectly rational discussions are invaded by those who are determined to prove a point even when it is really not necessary.

Perhaps we can get back to normal now and continue to amuse each other with our 'musings'

I adore boleos but think they have no place at a milonga on a crowded floor. Great in practica though.

I regard lifts as being purely for show tango. You'll never, ever see them done in BA at a milonga

That seems to be the case in Ballroom and Latin. Ballroom specialist pros have watched Latin hundreds of times and Latin specialist pros have watched Ballroom over the years.

But not in AT. Even the pros are generally clueless as how to lead an AT. The steps are carried out to the music and choreography but no pretence of action and reaction. Blind leading the blind and that generates false real world expectations (as Anthro has illustrated) that AT can be learnt in 5 or 6 hours. Having been inspired by Karen / Ramps and Natalie / Ricky I thought it could.

I suspect most of the celeb SCD alumni will be able to pass off doing a Waltz or Quickstep at a friend's wedding.

Few would attempt an exhibition AT without a year ++ of classes. And no milonga social dancing without at least a month of classes.

With salsa, two or three lessons and you are having a go at dancing at a club or indeed as I do - roll up the carpets after dinner at home and dance.

Doesn't really help when dear old doddery wide boy Len keeps thinking that AT was only danced by sweaty gauchos in brothels with 'working girls' .

I don't suppose he has any idea how far the Pampas are from BA, or that those who danced it in BA were immigrants from all over the world, hence the mix of candombe (origin Africa) and flamenco rhythms in the music, or that fact that AT progressed to Europe and the dance halls of Paris and the rest of Europe. Nah. Perish the thought.

Probably why War Drobe think that AT has to be danced in cheap satin with a lot of leg splits and a petulant pout.

Ah me.

We'll never get the ultimate in passion and sheer beauty by two of greatest ever AT dancers - namely this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8nSaydD3s8

Or indeed in London. Might occasionally see a sentada (sitting on a hip) but never lifts as seen as in SCD.

Funny that we see no lifts in the Waltz, QS, Tango, Foxtrot, VW .... Craig et al go on about hand holds and illegal lifts but say nothing when the couple in AT are out of hold which should never ever happen.

Some here prefer the embrace closer than others but AT should always be in hold. And NO LIFTS at all in AT.

Although I said I would not post in this thread again, I feel I need to reply re "most of the SCD alumni will be able to pass of doing a waltz or QS....". They sadly would not.
They do not learn to dance any of the dances, they only learn certain steps to a certain piece of music, in the same way if they were dancers in a West End show.
I very much doubt if you played, say, 10 tracks to any of the celebs, they would not be able to tell you what they dance they could dance to it. They would have to listen to the timing and know what dance they could dance to that timing.
I very much doubt if they were at a social event, and someone asked them to dance, firstly I suspect they would not know, from the music playing, what dance it was, and secondly they would have no knowledge of variations and certainly no skills to lead and follow a stranger dancing to music they had not heard before.
For them to dance their Waltz, etc, all they know is the same steps to the same piece of edited music.

I posted along those lines in another thread yesterday

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showp...1&postcount=40

On BIB2 I'll have what he seems to be about to have ...

Wow - just what I needed on a Monday morning, Thanks for that!

I;ve come to the conclusion, that there are no rules anymore. In the Ballroom dances, except AS, there should be no lifts and the couples must be in hold all the time. However, we frequently see them breaking out of hold ?

Thanks Jennifer for the clarification. But I got a bit lost on the double negatives within the BIB and there may be a typo.

I suspect from your last para you are saying that:

I very much doubt if you played, say, 10 tracks to any of the celebs, they would be able to tell you what dance they could dance to it. They would have to listen to the timing and know what dance they could dance to that timing and they would / wouldn't be capable of that.

Yes Henry, exactly that, If played a variety of tracks, different dances....the celeb, I'm sure would not be able to tell what dance the music was for. When I hear music in the car, for example, I always "hear" in dance terms. " I love this Rumba" or "Thats a fantastic QS" etc...

My pleasure hb

My only regret is that I never saw Gavito live

He is regarded as the greatest tanguero of them all. When you mention his name amongst the best tangueros currently performing today, they get misty eyed with emotion.

Oh, well done! Can you send Len the Geezer a copy? The depth of his ignorance pains me.

There are only 'rules' in competitive or medal ballroom (as I call it). One could hardly expect them to adhere to that with amateur dancers for one TV show.

Added to which, as you know, a good dancer does not make a good choreographer necessarily and they are having to create dances around whoever they are 'teaching'. It's bound to lead to messing about with rules in ballroom and some fairly frightful routines.

I don't agree with this at all. Some people have a natural talent. You also forget that a good lead can make many an amatuer look a heck of a lot better than they really are.

A waltz is really not that complicated. Some people instinctively hear music. You underestimate people greatly.

I suspect that the reason we have lifts in AT on SCD is due to Flavia and Vincent's own type of AT - very stagey, very extragavant. As that is what they demo-ed, so it follows that that set the model for everyone else.

I understand the point you make, but it wasn;t that long ago when Len et al would deduct points or at least make it known that they did not like the couples breaking hold. Maybe "rule" is the wrong word but you know what I am getting at. They are not adhering to the same principals as they used to. Breaking hold and " Faffing abaht" seem the norm now.