DS Forums

 
 

Argentine Tango Talk


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 27-11-2014, 14:18
henrywilliams58
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
Gahhh! I hate when that happens. Glad you liked video. Will look forward to your other posts. I learn so much about your chosen dance forms from what you say: it's such a great insight and you explain it so well

Here's the video link to same AT pro dancer Noelia dancing Swing. I wonder what you think of it? I like her style very much but would not dream of commenting on how good it is, or not!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LGDPVwWMhg
Thanks. He is wearing basketball shoes. I suppose it is a basketball court they are dancing in. I wonder if they are slippery enough for pivoting.
henrywilliams58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 27-11-2014, 14:20
DiamondBetty
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Manchester Lindy
Posts: 945
Here's another clip of Max and Noelia together, it starts as Balboa (full circle on our conversation today!) and goes into Lindy Hop, and they appear to be dancing at a Tango event!

It's more recent than your video Sofakat, and I can see Noelia has already progressed and no longer has the issues she had previously. I suspect she only took it up very recently, inspired by her chap. I sure hope he's learning AT for her in return.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EvxV87cvJDs


I will go find a clip of Max dancing with a Swing Follow for comparison, but will post this first so I don't lose it again!

Edit: Max danced with Annie Trudeau for years, but more recently seems to partner Pamela Gaizutyte, but not in a firm sense, because they don't live on the same continent, Max and Pamela don't compete together, for instance.

Here is Max and Pamela, dancing Lindy Hop with lots of Charleston elements. As you can see, Lindy Hop ladies are used to holding the floor, dancing solo and in open positions, whereas, I imagine that's quite alien for a top AT follow, who is used to being in a very close hold. I think this shows when Noelia is dancing Lindy Hop and Balboa, but I don't mean that as a criticism, I think Noelia is great, but no professional standard in this particular discipline (and I imagine Pamela's AT isn't much, if she's ever tried it at all). I guess this illustrates how stage school dancing isn't *that much* help when learning Ballroom on SCD too.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hIKfrjgLCJs
DiamondBetty is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 14:32
henrywilliams58
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
Here's another clip of Max and Noelia together, it starts as Balboa (full circle on our conversation today!) and goes into Lindy Hop, and they appear to be dancing at a Tango event!

It's more recent than your video Sofakat, and I can see Noelia has already progressed and no longer has the issues she had previously. I suspect she only took it up very recently, inspired by her chap. I sure hope he's learning AT for her in return.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EvxV87cvJDs


I will go find a clip of Max dancing with a Swing Follow for comparison, but will post this first so I don't lose it again!
I had to watch that twice. The first time I just got transfixed by that skirt

Found Part 1 of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfzAyPBEUjc
henrywilliams58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 14:36
henrywilliams58
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
Found this also at a Tango show

Max Pitruzzela & Pamela Gaizutyte - Lindy Hop - BTF 2013 (2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKa4NnKQTpE

Looks pretty good to me
henrywilliams58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 14:44
DiamondBetty
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Manchester Lindy
Posts: 945
I had to watch that twice. The first time I just got transfixed by that skirt

Found Part 1 of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfzAyPBEUjc
Ah, slow Lindy! practically it's own art form - for comparison Max dancing slow with Ksenia Parker, another Lindy Follow (Ksenia is amazing at solo Charleston).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xew9hrzPMP8
DiamondBetty is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 14:44
sofakat
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,110
Oh my cripes!

Max is on my Facebook friend list so I just looked it up and his new wife is in fact Noelia! He moved from Montpellier to Buenos Aires to be with her
Oh wow! How amazing She is an absolute sweetie and is adored by the tango crowd across Europe. He married a little super star!

That is just lovely.
sofakat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 14:48
DiamondBetty
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Manchester Lindy
Posts: 945
Thanks. He is wearing basketball shoes. I suppose it is a basketball court they are dancing in. I wonder if they are slippery enough for pivoting.
Non dancing dancing shoes are common in Lindy Hop. They almost definitely have been customised with a suede dance sole - my latest favourite dance shoes are silver brogues from Primark - £6, but with £50 insoles and a £15 suede dance sole glued on at my local Timpsons haha!
DiamondBetty is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 14:49
DiamondBetty
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Manchester Lindy
Posts: 945
Oh wow! How amazing She is an absolute sweetie and is adored by the tango crowd across Europe. He married a little super star!

That is just lovely.
It's made me feel all gooey inside
DiamondBetty is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 15:27
henrywilliams58
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
Ah, slow Lindy! practically it's own art form - for comparison Max dancing slow with Ksenia Parker, another Lindy Follow (Ksenia is amazing at solo Charleston).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xew9hrzPMP8

Ksenia is amazing at solo talking as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXYxDiu4D7Y

She doesn't need to breathe it seems.
henrywilliams58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 16:39
DiamondBetty
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Manchester Lindy
Posts: 945
Ksenia is amazing at solo talking as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXYxDiu4D7Y

She doesn't need to breathe it seems.
Ha! I kinda wish I had a clue what was going on on this Russian(?) version of SYTYCD/BGT. It looks like the judges enjoyed it!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=39wKf0E4M38
DiamondBetty is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 18:02
sofakat
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,110
Here's another clip of Max and Noelia together, it starts as Balboa (full circle on our conversation today!) and goes into Lindy Hop, and they appear to be dancing at a Tango event!

It's more recent than your video Sofakat, and I can see Noelia has already progressed and no longer has the issues she had previously. I suspect she only took it up very recently, inspired by her chap. I sure hope he's learning AT for her in return.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EvxV87cvJDs


I will go find a clip of Max dancing with a Swing Follow for comparison, but will post this first so I don't lose it again!

Edit: Max danced with Annie Trudeau for years, but more recently seems to partner Pamela Gaizutyte, but not in a firm sense, because they don't live on the same continent, Max and Pamela don't compete together, for instance.

Here is Max and Pamela, dancing Lindy Hop with lots of Charleston elements. As you can see, Lindy Hop ladies are used to holding the floor, dancing solo and in open positions, whereas, I imagine that's quite alien for a top AT follow, who is used to being in a very close hold. I think this shows when Noelia is dancing Lindy Hop and Balboa, but I don't mean that as a criticism, I think Noelia is great, but no professional standard in this particular discipline (and I imagine Pamela's AT isn't much, if she's ever tried it at all). I guess this illustrates how stage school dancing isn't *that much* help when learning Ballroom on SCD too.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hIKfrjgLCJs
Fascinating stuff DB! Such fun to watch. Max is a superb dancer and beautiful to watch. He's just ace!

Yes, it's true, AT followers do not often dance on their own because AT is led, always, by the man and is improvised. We do not learn sequences at all, just hundreds of moves over the years - which is often shocking for a ballroom person trying to grasp AT. What the woman brings to AT is the ability to follow without ever knowing what is coming next. Following is all about grace, line, response, beautiful feet (adornos) and the female decorative element. The latter you can also see in gay couples of either sex - one leads and one follows in the true sense of the word. We do use open hold, but only in nuevo Euro-style tango. Close hold is Milongeuro and Salon style and more traditional.

I can totally see what you mean by Noelia's progression and comparison with the fabulous Pam - and AT would not help in Lindy/Swing. Not a bit. She'll learn fast though!

Agree, stage school dancing teaches you nothing really. All eyes'n'teeth. I kind of despise it. Glad I didn't do it.

My background was classical ballet (17 years), followed by jazz, flamenco, salsa and then total immersion in American social (trained to teach) which included E C Swing, WC Swing, all the ballroom numbers, mambo and even disco (Hustle anyone?). I was trained by US dance professionals which is prob why I find British Ballroom so stilted. The only other person I know who was trained by the same bunch as me is Iveta! I can sometimes see it in her. She has her own school in the US - same teaching methods that I learned

Thank you for sharing your expertise DB. It's a joy!
sofakat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 18:04
sofakat
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,110
Thanks. He is wearing basketball shoes. I suppose it is a basketball court they are dancing in. I wonder if they are slippery enough for pivoting.
I was actually thanking Diamond Betty for her expertise and videos
sofakat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 18:58
DiamondBetty
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Manchester Lindy
Posts: 945
I was actually thanking Diamond Betty for her expertise and videos



Thank you! I was so giddy about the dancing footage and joining up dots that I forgot my manners. I apologise
DiamondBetty is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 27-11-2014, 19:33
DiamondBetty
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Manchester Lindy
Posts: 945
That's quite some dance background Sofakat! Very impressive.

Mine is less so, ballet from 3, took up National, Tap and Jazz at around 7 (ballet teacher told my mother I'd never be the right shape for ballet, and that I needed to add more strings to my bow), kept on with Ballet for fun even though Tap was my strong point, quit everything at about 15, took up boys and smoking instead

Fast forward to my early 20s- I came across Lindy by accident about 15 years ago. After been dragged around the dance floor in an embarrassing fashion by some very kind leads I vowed I would never again experience that and started classes two days later. After a while I picked up the other vintage swing dancers I mentioned earlier, and went back to tap (rhythm tap is very useful and of course, related to all the other dances I'm interested in). 7 years ago I moved to a city with very little going on and had no choice but to suck it up and start helping to get a local scene going, including teaching (and learning to lead). Happily, that paid off and we now have around 100 people at our classes weekly.

I firmly believe that beginners deserve the best teachers (bad habits are so hard to break!) so since then I've made a point of studying with some of the best Swing dancers in the world - including Max. Now, at the ripe old age of 38 I've somehow agreed to compete at the European Swing Dance Championships 2015, with the all girl authentic Jazz troupe I helped to found this year. Argh! Wish me luck? Haha!

I find Hustle fascinating, in part, because we use it as an argument for why Lindy needs to be preserved, rather than progressed. Essentially, Lindy Hop plus 40 years of changes = Hustle. Or indeed, WCS. No need to create them again!

Carolina Shag is the anomaly here, I think - the dance remains the same in terms of moves and spirit, even though it's danced to non-period appropriate music. I presume this is due to the unique combination of small geographic spread and the fact that most CS dancers are also Westies, who will dance to pretty much any kind of music. This is all simply conjecture, of course!

One of the subjects I lost when posting earlier relates to that, kinda - in Moscow last year a Swing dance camp held a crossover Jack and Jill competition, where Swing dancers of disparate disciplines (never usually present on the same dance floor) were randomly assigned partners in a raffle and then played previously unheard songs, the first song was either fast Swing or Boogie Woogie and the second was something random. It resulted in some absolutely bonkers happenings.
DiamondBetty is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 00:40
henrywilliams58
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
I was actually thanking Diamond Betty for her expertise and videos
And I was thanking you for the link. Seems to be catching ...
henrywilliams58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 01:38
henrywilliams58
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
Ha! I kinda wish I had a clue what was going on on this Russian(?) version of SYTYCD/BGT. It looks like the judges enjoyed it!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=39wKf0E4M38
Trick question.

The TV programme is in Ukrainian but the youtube video is titled in Russian.

I have picked up a bit of both - I have a Russian ex and one of my books was translated into Ukrainian so I can just about tell the difference. Script is a bit different.

Танцюють всі (as per the blue and white backdrop screen to the dance) = Танцуют все (as per the youtube title) = Tancyuyut Vsi = Dance All / Everybody Dance.

She is labelled as from Днепропетровск = Dnepropetrovsk which is Eastern Ukraine. So I suspect she is bilingual Russian / Ukrainian. Her English is good and her French is good.

She calls for an "Ambulance" with a French pronunciation here http://youtu.be/39wKf0E4M38?t=5m30s and at the beginning throws in "Je vous ... " at 0:10

She seems to be on the quadruple espressos. Complete space cadet. Iveta supercharged. She should join SCD or DWTS definitely.
henrywilliams58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 01:50
henrywilliams58
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
.. I guess this illustrates how stage school dancing isn't *that much* help when learning Ballroom on SCD too.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hIKfrjgLCJs
I think the most important thing is musicality and timing and getting the body to keep to the music.

If you can't do that you maybe can learn the steps of a dance and hope you are in time or get dragged around Anton style.

Basic musicality or learnt musicality is a great help in any dance - otherwise it is just rote learning and not transferable.
henrywilliams58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 08:54
sofakat
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,110
That's quite some dance background Sofakat! Very impressive.

Mine is less so, ballet from 3, took up National, Tap and Jazz at around 7 (ballet teacher told my mother I'd never be the right shape for ballet, and that I needed to add more strings to my bow), kept on with Ballet for fun even though Tap was my strong point, quit everything at about 15, took up boys and smoking instead

Fast forward to my early 20s- I came across Lindy by accident about 15 years ago. After been dragged around the dance floor in an embarrassing fashion by some very kind leads I vowed I would never again experience that and started classes two days later. After a while I picked up the other vintage swing dancers I mentioned earlier, and went back to tap (rhythm tap is very useful and of course, related to all the other dances I'm interested in). 7 years ago I moved to a city with very little going on and had no choice but to suck it up and start helping to get a local scene going, including teaching (and learning to lead). Happily, that paid off and we now have around 100 people at our classes weekly.

I firmly believe that beginners deserve the best teachers (bad habits are so hard to break!) so since then I've made a point of studying with some of the best Swing dancers in the world - including Max. Now, at the ripe old age of 38 I've somehow agreed to compete at the European Swing Dance Championships 2015, with the all girl authentic Jazz troupe I helped to found this year. Argh! Wish me luck? Haha!

I find Hustle fascinating, in part, because we use it as an argument for why Lindy needs to be preserved, rather than progressed. Essentially, Lindy Hop plus 40 years of changes = Hustle. Or indeed, WCS. No need to create them again!

Carolina Shag is the anomaly here, I think - the dance remains the same in terms of moves and spirit, even though it's danced to non-period appropriate music. I presume this is due to the unique combination of small geographic spread and the fact that most CS dancers are also Westies, who will dance to pretty much any kind of music. This is all simply conjecture, of course!

One of the subjects I lost when posting earlier relates to that, kinda - in Moscow last year a Swing dance camp held a crossover Jack and Jill competition, where Swing dancers of disparate disciplines (never usually present on the same dance floor) were randomly assigned partners in a raffle and then played previously unheard songs, the first song was either fast Swing or Boogie Woogie and the second was something random. It resulted in some absolutely bonkers happenings.
What a story! Love that you created all this for yourself out of sheer determination. You should be so proud of what you have done. Setting up a dance 'school' or class is bloody hard work. I admire you tremendously.

Also love the fact that you have sought out great teachers and decided your own path in dance. Totally agree that beginners need great teaching from the very beginning. Seen far too many people decide to teach after only a few years of a doing some form of dance and then teaching very, very badly. Such arrogance! If you dare to teach you need to keep training and refreshing your knowledge, as we have done.

I have also over the years chosen to do 1-to-1 classes with great AT dancers/teachers. It's the only way. Group classes are a pain over here because AT does tend to attract the odd bossy old geek who spends the whole class telling you how to do a move while the teacher is trying to teach. So rude! Also people learn at different speeds so I'd rather be selfish and learn at my own pace.

I'd love to have seen that Moscow shenanigans! What a hoot I love that you have decided to compete too! Dammit girl, this is fabulous. You have earned this. You are at the pefect age to do this stuff. I hope you slay them in the aisles!

Re: Hustle. We were always taught that the New York Hustle was created mainly as dance to fit soul music and the club scene and came out of the South Bronx initially via the Puerto Rican Community. aronf 1972. It was also known as the Latin or Spanish Hustle. I can see that it has some elements of Lindy and Swing but I think it came from a different source. Of course Saturday Night Fever brought it to a whole new audience. Mind you, my Mambo, Latin, Club Dance teacher was from the South Bronx so that was his explanation. I am sure there are many more!

I fond it hilarious to see it repeated - well the absolute basic step only - in Modern Jive. I actually laughed out loud. And the 'teacher', who was most put out, said it came from years back in the jazz and blues scene and was authentic jive Yeah. Right.
sofakat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 10:13
perdiedumpling
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,394
Now, at the ripe old age of 38 I've somehow agreed to compete at the European Swing Dance Championships 2015, with the all girl authentic Jazz troupe I helped to found this year. Argh! Wish me luck? Haha!
Wow! Good luck - let us know how you get on! Any videos of your troupe?
perdiedumpling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 13:31
henrywilliams58
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
Good luck Betty. They should do that Jack & Jill in SCD with the celebs dancing with each other

I liked this production

I Charleston Bern

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoOBjBkOmrw
henrywilliams58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 13:58
henrywilliams58
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
Do people want to include Salsa and Lindy in the title since de facto they are being discussed?

Is "Swing" the generic to include Balboa etc.?

If so I will ask the mods to change the title.
henrywilliams58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 16:19
DiamondBetty
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Manchester Lindy
Posts: 945
Do people want to include Salsa and Lindy in the title since de facto they are being discussed?

Is "Swing" the generic to include Balboa etc.?

If so I will ask the mods to change the title.
That's very generous of you Henry, I think it's a nice idea. I think it's great to compare different dances and techniques and it can't happen if everything is neatly tucked away in separate threads.

Perhaps call it 'general dance related chat (including AT and swing)'?

Perhaps we could suggest Dance Questions be renamed 'Ballroom and Latin American dance questions' too?

Sofakat, I will write you a proper reply soon!!

Perdie, not yet! We make our performance debut (tee hee!) at a dance camp in Leeds in March - it won't be our competition routine though, that's too secret
DiamondBetty is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 16:28
sofakat
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,110
That's very generous of you Henry, I think it's a nice idea. I think it's great to compare different dances and techniques and it can't happen if everything is neatly tucked away in separate threads.

Perhaps call it 'general dance related chat (including AT and swing)'?

Perhaps we could suggest Dance Questions be renamed 'Ballroom and Latin American dance questions' too?

Sofakat, I will write you a proper reply soon!!

Purdie, not yet! We make our performance debut (tee hee!) at a dance camp in Leeds in March - it won't be our competition routine though, that's too secret
No rush DB. Whenever

I never post on Dance Questions because it's so heavily geared towards British Ballroom and their rules etc - but I'd love more Swing views on here and I want us to keep DB
sofakat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 16:43
An Thropologist
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16,125
Do people want to include Salsa and Lindy in the title since de facto they are being discussed?

Is "Swing" the generic to include Balboa etc.?

If so I will ask the mods to change the title.
No Henry. Don't go there. Lets just respect each other's interests and allow people to chatter about what interests them. I have found Betty and Sofakat's conversation ( with other contributors) interesting and enlightening.

Surely to rename this thread and for the other to be renamed is simply to create a divide which shouldn't be there and start a sort of us and them like the fanwarz threads. In the past threads like this have been the refuge where those of us who love dance enough to go and do it week in week out can (or should be able) to share our enthusiasm in an atmosphere of tolerance, understanding and mutual respect.

We can do that can't we.
An Thropologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-11-2014, 16:53
sofakat
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,110
No Henry. Don't go there. Lets just respect each other's interests and allow people to chatter about what interests them. I have found Betty and Sofakat's conversation ( with other contributors) interesting and enlightening.

Surely to rename this thread and for the other to be renamed is simply to create a divide which shouldn't be there and start a sort of us and them like the fanwarz threads. In the past threads like this have been the refuge where those of us who love dance enough to go and do it week in week out can (or should be able) to share our enthusiasm in an atmosphere of tolerance, understanding and mutual respect.

We can do that can't we.
She has a point actually. I don't want to mingle with everyone, unless they come in the form of A Throp and Betty and have an open mind and a sensa huma!
sofakat is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply




 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:47.