Can I ask a question about leading & following? I have an impression on what it's all about, but probably completely wrong!!!

So, if I was learning AT, I'd need a leader to be very obvious, whereas as I learnt more and became more confident, the leader could be more subtle, and indeed, too obvious would throw me off. Never having danced, the best way I can think to describe what I mean is in terms of learning to ride. At first, you start on the riding schools safest pony, that is used to being yanked round by total novices, but If you treat horses for more advanced riders the same way, you wouldn't end up getting the results you were expecting.

Ok, now tell me I'm completely wrong, and I really don't mind if you point and laugh!!!!

I can have a go at answering Zedders. I am not sure how I will get on in words. It would be easy if I could demonstrate.

The short answer to your question I am afraid is yes and no. A rookie follower with a reasonable level of aptitude will find they can be lead by an experienced lead who is using very subtle movements. In fact the movements are almost imperceptible, its more like feeling a variation in energy across the man's chest than an actual movement.

Where I help with teaching the male leads are initially taught to keep the lower bodies straight while twisting their upper body (no force from the arm muscles mind you) to indicate the direction they inviting the lady to step in. In the first few weeks this movement is demonstrated in quite an exaggerated way. As time goes on the actual rotation in the torso starts to reduce until it becomes much more subtle.

The job of the follower is to mirror that movement of the torso. The idea is that the follow should aim to get back to a place where she is facing the lead square on. Imagine having a cardboard box between you and your job is to hold it in place while keeping it square (you don't want to squeeze it into a diamond shape). As a complete beginner it does help to have quite gross movements to follow but I think that is to do with "beginners classes".

Beginners classes have the flaw in that both parties are learners. I suspect if learner followers were able to be paired with experienced leads than the need to see quite a pronounced torso rotation would not be so apparent. ( Leads would of course benefit from having more experienced followers too but perhaps in different ways).

I am not sure that the bigger movement is really necessary. I suspect it just helps with the mental burden of having to do so many odd things in those early classes. We are asking people to stand in a way that is pitched forward; which is unnatural. We are asking them to walk in a way that is also unnatural. We are asking them to pull up or reposition their natural centre of balance. And we are asking them to use their upper bodies, but not their arms, to indicate the direction of travel. Its a lot to deal with at once and most students report that they are mentally tired more than physically tired when the start out in AT.

So for this reason I wonder if the grosser movements just eliminate one thing to have to think about rather than being really necessary.

What I do know is that speaking personally I have become much more sensitive at picking up very tiny movements or changes in energy and responding to them automatically. In part this is because I have gained experience. But I do recall dancing with experienced leads at early milongas - say after 6 months tuition and finding I didn't 'go wrong' as much as I did with less experienced leads despite their less obvious movements.

Does that help at all?

(Sorry, snipping just this bit of your post to save space.)

BIB: Picking this bit out just because I... really don't agree. Ask three dancers for their opinions on a dance and odds are you'll get three opinions. Musicality in this sort of discussion links in with interpretation of the music and of the performance and as such, can only be objective to a degree. Any time you start discussing a performer's interpretation of the music, you're into subjective opinions and "connection" is incredibly subjective, which is why sometimes the judges will say "What a great connection that couple has," at which point half the forum says "Yes, I knew it, they're amazingly connected, they were practically having sex on the dance floor!" and the other half says "... huh?"

I think both Frankie and Caroline demonstrated good musicality in their ATs but in very different ways due to the way that the two routines were choreographed. Frankie and Kevin's AT was very much choreographed to each beat in the music. For the majority of the routine, there was a very steady 1,2,3,4 and the steps, lifts and kicks were almost all on those beats. It was relentless and Frankie did well to keep up. Caroline and Pasha's AT on the other hand was choreographed much more to phrases in the music. Caroline often had to breathe or extend through a couple of counts and then hit a specific beat at the beginning or end of the phrase. The very first note, you can see her arms go out with the first swell of the violin, Pasha brings her hand up to his at the violin's high note and then they begin to step precisely at the start of the violin's second phrase. Her leg and arm finish their extension to coincide with another note on the violin and it's perfectly timed to just finish the extension before Pasha turns her. Pasha's first turn is timed for the piano's first notes and Caroline is positioned to follow Pasha's momentum and she lifts her leg just as the piano echo dies.

I'm not going to go through the whole thing but suffice it to say I personally think Caroline did demonstrate a good sense of musicality and for me, it's all the more impressive because there wasn't a driving beat for her to anchor herself to in that beginning section but they still ended up in position in that lift on exactly the right note. I also like the way that she uses her legs and feet throughout the dance, with just a little bit of tension so that she can create a sense of resistance in the walks and then flick up in the kicks. (I know nothing about AT so she could well be doing it wrong but I like the way it looks, at least ) When she's dancing to the violin's legato bowing (apologies, I can't think of any other way of phrasing that!) she's more fluid and then she's sharper when dancing to short, staccato notes.You can really she her switch at about 00.58 from a sharp pose to turning with her arm extending up and out in time with the violin coming back in above the other instruments. Generally through the routine Caroline seems to finish her extension at just the right moment for the next step to start, without looking like she either didn't finish the motion or like she was stuck there for too long. Her back bends in particular I was really impressed with. The second one I swear she comes back up one vertebrae at a time, her head coming up at the last second to lock gazes with Pasha as they go into hold. It's not perfect, there were moments she could have pushed it further, there were a couple of wobbles and I personally really didn't like the section where they were locking legs at waist height (no idea what was wrong but it looked awkward) but I personally wouldn't fault her sense of musicality, of where to finish an extension, where to make a step sharper, where to add more or less tension etc.

I also felt their connection but my goodness, that's such a subjective thing. I felt as though Caroline played the whole routine with a sense of "He's coming but I don't want him, I'm going to turn him away this time, I... Oh God, I really want this. I don't want to want this. But it feels so amazing when we dance..." Frankie's routine was entirely different. She attacked it from beginning to end, the pace was relentless and she was totally in control. I preferred Caroline and Pasha's routine, partly because I preferred the routine (more light and shade), partly because I felt their connection more than I did Frankie and Kevin's and partly because I really felt Caroline's connection to the music and the story. I loved her fluidity and the way that I could see/ hear it fitting with the piano and the strings. Mileage varies, though. Frankie and Kevin's routine was the more exciting of the two and I really enjoyed that as well, and thought that Frankie danced it well by and large (I still think her legs and feet could do with some work and I wish she'd stop rounding her shoulders).

"Ask three dancers for their opinions on a dance and odds are you'll get three opinions. "

Just the three? I bank on at least 4 from 3 dancers. I often have 3 opinions all by myself!

I absolutely take the point you are making. I often muse that the interpretation is what lies at the heart of the perfect dance. The perfect dance that is rare but is also the drug that drives you back to the dance floor time and again in search of that perfect fix.

It comes when you happen to dance with the right person, to the right track, in the right environment. The whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts and the connection between the two of you and the music creates a sort of magic. Its the best feeling in the world.

It may be that the truth is nothing more than dancing a dance led by someone who is making the very same interpretive decisions I would have made if I had had the free reign to choose.

As a AT dancer and dressage rider, I think you understand the concept of lead/follow in AT brilliantly with absolutely nothing that needs to be added (wish some of my leaders had competitive riding experience; but also can feel the resistance to the lead when I switch and attempt to lead). I find the comparison very perceptive.

Great analysis Franglemand, musicality is certainly about way more than beats!

I find I listen to the music differently depending on whether I am leading or following. As a Leader, I am far more likely to be looking for the start and end of a phrase, and picking up the rhythms, whether they be straight or syncopated. In practice, this means I am most likely to be following a drum beat, or a bass line.

As a Follower, I am listening to something closer to the top of the song, the solos, or even the vocalist. As a swing dancer, I find myself most attracted to the the trumpet and the clarinet, but I certainly no others who better sympathise with the piano, or the lyrics. Caroline mentioned in interview that she generally responds to the lyrics.

This, I certainly do in salsa ( less so I think in AT). Salsa has layers of percussion all playing different rhythms - Afro/Cuban polyrhythms. At the base there is the clave (the key) played on a pair of wooden sticks. This plays either 2/3 or 3/2 over 2 bars and may switch during the song. Other percussion builds on top, so timbales are doing their thing, congas something else etc. On top of that there are the melodic instruments etc. It is quite normal to pick out an instrument and follow it for a bit and then switch to another.

Mind you I am a bit odd in that I hear music as a series of shapes - short and fat, tall and thin, squiggles, circles, jagged lines etc.

That's a form of synesthesia. Lucky you, to have it attached to music.,

I have it attached to numbers, seven is a purple diamond for example.

I maintain its why I am so bad a numbers, how can a yellow ball 2 and green pyramid 5 make a purple diamond, it's just not logical.

But music attached to shape must make dance really interesting, especially dances such as salsa and AT where they are not pre choreographed.

Lots of people have shape and or colour attached to music, some famous composers, Bernstein I believe had it.

Well this gets more bizarre by the moment because as I read your take on numbers I reinterpreted as a gold penny plus a noisette pate triangle make a hazelnut caramel. Makes total sense if it is subtraction not addition.

*note to self - must buy some Quality Street*

As for synesthesia I thought people who have that tend to have more organised representations - so a C flat would always be red for example. I am not sure my shapes can be consistently tagged to the same sound.

I think there are many different types and degrees of synesthesia, yours is a form I am sure, for years and years I didn't know others didn't see numbers as colours and shapes. I just failed to understand maths at all, because I could not see any logic in it. People think how they experience thing is the norm, I expect you didn't know for ages other people did not see music as shapes.

I think yours must make music a very all enveloping way to hear it, to have sight involved as well.

Quality street confuse me purple and ovaloid shapes do not equate at all.

Not to mention they try to kill me, so many nuts

You couldn't be more right there. It happened at a salsa weekender at Pontins. We were talking about two salsa tracks one quintessentially Cuban and the other cross body. I made a casual remark about the former being short and fat and the latter tall and thin and then realised that everyone was looking at me like I had grown an extra head. It made TOTAL sense to me and I assumed it was obvious to anyone that one was short and fat and the other tall and thin. Clearly (by the faces that were like this ) not

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30510761

Has anyone danced a street tango? How does one cope with gritty pavements and pivots? Special shoes? Ruined dance shoes?

Yes, a few flash dances and a couple of street festivals. Highly recommend close embrace to minimise pivoting (if dancing for an audience; keep close embrace and open out for a a count-of-8 within the music).

Old dance shoes ('cos they will be ruined). Need to be tango'esque if dancing for an audience; otherwise sturdy spanish heel dance shoes are my favourite.

Hope that helps

It does thank you. Do you happen to know if there is anything that can be hired to make a better surface for the purposes of AT? I am possibly going to be helping to organise a thing next summer. I say "thing" because I don't know yet what it will be - its an idea still in the baking!. But the idea is to produce some sort of promotion - like a sort of open/social street milonga both to promote the dance and provide a bit of a public draw for that part of town.

You can hire a mobile dance floor but I'd think that would be quite expensive. (Very lucky because a local tango dancer actually owns one!!). I suppose you could buy a large square of smooth lino that could define the dance area.

However, if the floor is reasonably flat, it shouldn't be too much of a problem, just look at the floor at a London milonga: don't care because its the most beautiful and unusual venue. I'd guess its a rough concrete floor !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0VlXPQr9Fs

There are lots of clips of tango dancers dancing outside on non-dance floors. My only advice is PLEASE protect the followers knees - don't pivot unless you know its safe and comfortable.

Wow! That is quite a venue!

I'm currently venue hunting for MCRLX 2015 and there is now no hope of coming across anything that will impress me (although floors are the first priority, really).

Not AT but we had to dance outside in a concrete square for that TV thingy a while back. We deliberately chose patterns and styling that required minimum turning and jumping, so probably worth briefing your lead!

It s a venue and a half. Thanks for posting Gritty. I had thought of the lino option I am not sure how it could be anchored down though.

It is knees and ankles that I am thinking of. I know from doing salsa in nightclubs with sticky floors how much it hurts if you go into a spot turn and the shoes stick to the floor.

I know what you mean Betty. Dancing on concrete is really hard on the legs. I have appropriate footwear which are OK for doing salsa in a street environment. But you certainly know about it the next day.

For Northern Soul dancing in my youth we use to have a large piece of Lino held down by bricks in the corners, classy eh!

It was a lot softer on the knees and of course you could turn on it without sticking

OMG did you do that? I have a tape of Northern Soul music someone gave me when I was young. I loved the music. Daren't play the tape now it must be 30 years old! I am in awe. It looks so difficult to do well, not just the swallow dives and back drops but the basic foot movement. Talk about swivel. They look like they are not on either foot much of the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOsLwMziqAg

*pops out from the lurking cupboard, busy week...*

Love the links thanks everyone!

What a fascinating discussion about forms of synaesthesia. I'd love to know what that feels like.

And franglemand what a great post, you've expressed just what I felt about Caroline's tango, I really enjoyed it.

Looking forward to Saturday!

My favourite things about relocating from the Home Counties to the North West. Quality Save and Northern Soul nights.

Luckily I have a dance buddy who grew up in Wigan, because apparently the only way to learn to dance to Northern Soul is in your big sister's bedroom in the 1970s. Or by pretending you are in your big sister's bedroom in the 1970s.

Coppertop, I presume this means you are aware of the phenomena that is pea-wet?

Shhh now you have revealed my age.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WOWW5EkMwaQ

Me in the pink with my back to the camera 1.17

Still in contact with boy with the eyebrows 2.20 no hair now just eyebrows.

OMG the trousers! I had forgotten quite how awful they were.

Pea wet, is that how it is spelt ? Diamond I really thought it was the other given its hue.

Obviously in your bedroom in the 70s with your father yelling at you that if you break one more thing he won't take you to the club on Saturday and him coming into the club at 11 o clock on the dot, if you were not outside waiting at 11 on the DOT. Funnily enough I just got an xmas card from my dancing queen partner in crime this morning, talk about nostalgia this morning, can't see her on the film though.

Right at the front with a blonde bob ; next to two guys in white? I have to agree the fashion leaves a lot to be desired but I am sure the same will be said about today's clobber in 20 years from now.

You reference has sent me onto U tube this morning, where I found one of those self loading stream selections. The clips that run one to another without us having to do anything. Leaving aside the fact that I spent the morning gutting and filleting sardines, my ears have had a very pleasant time. Some of those tunes are so danceable - The Snake, Tainted Love etc and some genius lyrics too.

Yes right person, hair was then really dark copper coloured , peole used say I had titian coloured hair
The hours it took to get it that straight!

Yes me too doing nostalgia listening to those songs again, getting them Imported and having to wait weeks and weeks for them to arrive!

One thing that really leaps out at me is how slim young people were back then.

I have been trying to figure out the footwork. It looks as if both the heel and balls of foot are used independently so that there are effectively four possible options for placing the weight.

It seems as if the weight is transferred from left to right on the ball of the foot, but then the weight is transferred to the heel and swivelled to change direction. I can't figure out if the weight then goes back to the ball of the foot before changing feet or not. It also seems that a basic box pattern is being made on the floor although sometimes that seems more circular.

Can you remember how it was done?