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Argentine Tango Talk
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coppertop1
18-12-2014
Yes to a basic box pattern , you have to bear in mind the clubs were really crowded and boy was it hot!
Yes to the toe of one foot heel of the other with swivel of both feet, hence the Lino.
We used to glue suede on basic pumps or gymn shoes. Oh and talc . Oodles of Johnson baby talc.

Like AT the exhibition dances was all about the drops and splits etc, and if there was space on the floor you could do your thing, but mostly bounce, box steps and swivel with your arms being really loose and secondary to the footwork. Exhausting!

Back then I had boobs 34 C and I was unusual most of my friends having fried eggs, I was a size 10 then , now I would say an equivalent of a size 6 and 10 to 12 was the norm, I don't remember any of my friends actually being bigger we all used to swap clothes about except I could never share the blouses. Buttons you know.

It was the era of angel delight and vesta curries.but also lots of home cooking I think we had an awful diet in some respects, very heavy and processed but portions were so much smaller.

I think you have 2 distinct types of figures these days with the young, the frankly podgy with too tight jeans, overly stretched leggings and young men hiding behind black hoodies and tee shirts. They don't exercise and eat stodgy.

Then those who care over their figures, the girls have boobs that my generation generally didn't but otherwise there are a lot of gymn bunnies of both sexes and worrying obsessively over their figures. Oestrogen and their mothers being on the pill aparently is the cause of young girls having the boobs my generation generally did not have.
coppertop1
18-12-2014
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pcLyqKfzqyE

Just found this, Odd to see it in bare feet but great idea of the basic steps
scout2006
18-12-2014
Originally Posted by An Thropologist:
“OMG did you do that? I have a tape of Northern Soul music someone gave me when I was young. I loved the music. Daren't play the tape now it must be 30 years old! I am in awe. It looks so difficult to do well, not just the swallow dives and back drops but the basic foot movement. Talk about swivel. They look like they are not on either foot much of the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOsLwMziqAg”

I need to know, did Lauren win? I thought she made it look effortless
An Thropologist
18-12-2014
Originally Posted by scout2006:
“I need to know, did Lauren win? I thought she made it look effortless ”

I'd like to know too. I am afraid I took that at random from U tube. I was looking for an example from way back when but most seemed to be montages of stills.

Originally Posted by coppertop1:
“https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pcLyqKfzqyE

Just found this, Odd to see it in bare feet but great idea of the basic steps”

Brilliant thanks. I have watched that through several times now and am fascinated. Pity there isn't a shot of the guy's face. I would know his feet anywhere though! I wonder what those steps repeated time and again do to your ankles. They look like they would become pretty strong.

Originally Posted by coppertop1:
“Yes to a basic box pattern , you have to bear in mind the clubs were really crowded and boy was it hot!
Yes to the toe of one foot heel of the other with swivel of both feet, hence the Lino.
We used to glue suede on basic pumps or gymn shoes. Oh and talc . Oodles of Johnson baby talc.

Like AT the exhibition dances was all about the drops and splits etc, and if there was space on the floor you could do your thing, but mostly bounce, box steps and swivel with your arms being really loose and secondary to the footwork. Exhausting!

Back then I had boobs 34 C and I was unusual most of my friends having fried eggs, I was a size 10 then , now I would say an equivalent of a size 6 and 10 to 12 was the norm, I don't remember any of my friends actually being bigger we all used to swap clothes about except I could never share the blouses. Buttons you know.

It was the era of angel delight and vesta curries.but also lots of home cooking I think we had an awful diet in some respects, very heavy and processed but portions were so much smaller.

I think you have 2 distinct types of figures these days with the young, the frankly podgy with too tight jeans, overly stretched leggings and young men hiding behind black hoodies and tee shirts. They don't exercise and eat stodgy.

Then those who care over their figures, the girls have boobs that my generation generally didn't but otherwise there are a lot of gymn bunnies of both sexes and worrying obsessively over their figures. Oestrogen and their mothers being on the pill aparently is the cause of young girls having the boobs my generation generally did not have.”

You can still get it. I saw it in a branch of the Co-op a couple of months ago!

When I go out in town the two things I am stuck by from the younger crowd are a) The lack of clothing. I scurry by on my way to a salsa night all bundled up in a thick coat, scarf, boots etc and there they are standing out side night club in dresses that have about as much substance as nighties. Brrrrrr.

And b) muffin tops! This seems to be a new phenomena to me. I don't remember my contemporaries having muffin tops when I was a twenty something.
henrywilliams58
18-12-2014
Originally Posted by franglemand:
“(Sorry, snipping just this bit of your post to save space.)

BIB: Picking this bit out just because I... really don't agree. Ask three dancers for their opinions on a dance and odds are you'll get three opinions. Musicality in this sort of discussion links in with interpretation of the music and of the performance and as such, can only be objective to a degree. Any time you start discussing a performer's interpretation of the music, you're into subjective opinions and "connection" is incredibly subjective, which is why sometimes the judges will say "What a great connection that couple has," at which point half the forum says "Yes, I knew it, they're amazingly connected, they were practically having sex on the dance floor!" and the other half says "... huh?"

I think both Frankie and Caroline demonstrated good musicality in their ATs but in very different ways due to the way that the two routines were choreographed. Frankie and Kevin's AT was very much choreographed to each beat in the music. For the majority of the routine, there was a very steady 1,2,3,4 and the steps, lifts and kicks were almost all on those beats. It was relentless and Frankie did well to keep up. Caroline and Pasha's AT on the other hand was choreographed much more to phrases in the music. Caroline often had to breathe or extend through a couple of counts and then hit a specific beat at the beginning or end of the phrase. The very first note, you can see her arms go out with the first swell of the violin, Pasha brings her hand up to his at the violin's high note and then they begin to step precisely at the start of the violin's second phrase. Her leg and arm finish their extension to coincide with another note on the violin and it's perfectly timed to just finish the extension before Pasha turns her. Pasha's first turn is timed for the piano's first notes and Caroline is positioned to follow Pasha's momentum and she lifts her leg just as the piano echo dies.

I'm not going to go through the whole thing but suffice it to say I personally think Caroline did demonstrate a good sense of musicality and for me, it's all the more impressive because there wasn't a driving beat for her to anchor herself to in that beginning section but they still ended up in position in that lift on exactly the right note. I also like the way that she uses her legs and feet throughout the dance, with just a little bit of tension so that she can create a sense of resistance in the walks and then flick up in the kicks. (I know nothing about AT so she could well be doing it wrong but I like the way it looks, at least ) When she's dancing to the violin's legato bowing (apologies, I can't think of any other way of phrasing that!) she's more fluid and then she's sharper when dancing to short, staccato notes.You can really she her switch at about 00.58 from a sharp pose to turning with her arm extending up and out in time with the violin coming back in above the other instruments. Generally through the routine Caroline seems to finish her extension at just the right moment for the next step to start, without looking like she either didn't finish the motion or like she was stuck there for too long. Her back bends in particular I was really impressed with. The second one I swear she comes back up one vertebrae at a time, her head coming up at the last second to lock gazes with Pasha as they go into hold. It's not perfect, there were moments she could have pushed it further, there were a couple of wobbles and I personally really didn't like the section where they were locking legs at waist height (no idea what was wrong but it looked awkward) but I personally wouldn't fault her sense of musicality, of where to finish an extension, where to make a step sharper, where to add more or less tension etc.

I also felt their connection but my goodness, that's such a subjective thing. I felt as though Caroline played the whole routine with a sense of "He's coming but I don't want him, I'm going to turn him away this time, I... Oh God, I really want this. I don't want to want this. But it feels so amazing when we dance..." Frankie's routine was entirely different. She attacked it from beginning to end, the pace was relentless and she was totally in control. I preferred Caroline and Pasha's routine, partly because I preferred the routine (more light and shade), partly because I felt their connection more than I did Frankie and Kevin's and partly because I really felt Caroline's connection to the music and the story. I loved her fluidity and the way that I could see/ hear it fitting with the piano and the strings. Mileage varies, though. Frankie and Kevin's routine was the more exciting of the two and I really enjoyed that as well, and thought that Frankie danced it well by and large (I still think her legs and feet could do with some work and I wish she'd stop rounding her shoulders).”

Thanks for the analysis. Interesting.

There is a danger that this could drift into a "Tracey Ermin's bed" style of discussion so best to move on. There is never a right answer in ART and room for everyone.

Watching dancing, sculpture or painting or even listening to music can be solitary. I even go to the opera on my own so I can get totally immersed without having to be concerned about someone else's possible lack of enjoyment.

The problem with actually dancing though unlike watching is that it takes two. So it is pretty crucial that both parties are on the same wavelength re musicality.

I know I am very rigid on musical tastes [My MP3 stuff is (mainly) Italian Opera, Salsa/Merengue etc., Tango, Flamenco/Rumba/Gypsy, Miles Davis/Weather Report style jazz and not much else]. But I am open to stuff occasionally and was gobsmacked by Azla's links.

So if I don't like the music I am going not going to want to dance to it. But it is fun to see the AT diehards sit out anything that is not scratchy. Maybe Bajofondo and Gotan should do a Scratchy Edit.

EDIT

I got thrown by the "Oh God, I really want this. I don't want to want this. .." reference. I have never read that sort of novel.
coppertop1
18-12-2014
I used to take ballet lessons twice a week and do that for a couple of year , bizarrely until I went to uni at 18 in the North, proper, we used to go to Rhyl at the weekend. I have just watched a bbc culture show on Northern soul , I don't know whether I was just more innocent then but I wasn't into drugs, all night dancing nor was I gritty and working class. I think that programme was a bit misleading on a,lot of things, or they by passed me altogether.

In any event despite ballet and Northern soul, I snapped my Achilles' tendon within 2 weeks of university so it did nothing for me.
henrywilliams58
18-12-2014
Originally Posted by An Thropologist:
“

When I go out in town the two things I am stuck by from the younger crowd are a) The lack of clothing. I scurry by on my way to a salsa night all bundled up in a thick coat, scarf, boots etc and there they are standing out side night club in dresses that have about as much substance as nighties. Brrrrrr.

And b) muffin tops! This seems to be a new phenomena to me. I don't remember my contemporaries having muffin tops when I was a twenty something.”

They are hardened but I suspect they do feel cold.

Muffin tops. Just googled that. It is way past my bed time where I am and now I am going to have to think of muffin tops all night.
An Thropologist
18-12-2014
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“They are hardened but I suspect they do feel cold.

Muffin tops. Just googled that. It is way past my bed time where I am and now I am going to have to think of muffin tops all night.”

Well just imagine them in a paper case with blueberries or choc chips and you will sleep soundly.
henrywilliams58
18-12-2014
Originally Posted by An Thropologist:
“Well just imagine them in a paper case with blueberries or choc chips and you will sleep soundly.”

Choc chips would be nice. But I'll pass. I've been overeating as it is.
henrywilliams58
18-12-2014
Originally Posted by zedders:
“Can I ask a question about leading & following? I have an impression on what it's all about, but probably completely wrong!!!

So, if I was learning AT, I'd need a leader to be very obvious, whereas as I learnt more and became more confident, the leader could be more subtle, and indeed, too obvious would throw me off. Never having danced, the best way I can think to describe what I mean is in terms of learning to ride. At first, you start on the riding schools safest pony, that is used to being yanked round by total novices, but If you treat horses for more advanced riders the same way, you wouldn't end up getting the results you were expecting.

Ok, now tell me I'm completely wrong, and I really don't mind if you point and laugh!!!!”

Yes Dressage immediately came to my mind. One of the schools I go to starts with just circuits of leading and following with only torso connections - no arms so like no reins.

Though I have ridden I was a yanker for quite a few weeks. Then somebody mentioned horses and the penny dropped. It isn't Formula 1 without power steering but Polo or Dressage.

But it really isn't obvious to a bloke that he should not be yanking until there is a bloke surplus and he follows and gets yanked around.

Originally Posted by gritty:
“As a AT dancer and dressage rider, I think you understand the concept of lead/follow in AT brilliantly with absolutely nothing that needs to be added (wish some of my leaders had competitive riding experience; but also can feel the resistance to the lead when I switch and attempt to lead). I find the comparison very perceptive.”

Not just the experience but the leader seeing the connection. But I imagine a bloke turning up wearing spurs and handling a crop would not be amusing
henrywilliams58
18-12-2014
Originally Posted by An Thropologist:
“It does thank you. Do you happen to know if there is anything that can be hired to make a better surface for the purposes of AT? I am possibly going to be helping to organise a thing next summer. I say "thing" because I don't know yet what it will be - its an idea still in the baking!. But the idea is to produce some sort of promotion - like a sort of open/social street milonga both to promote the dance and provide a bit of a public draw for that part of town.”

Try a shopping centre. They have marble floors which are quite slippy slidey.
henrywilliams58
18-12-2014
Originally Posted by gritty:
“You can hire a mobile dance floor but I'd think that would be quite expensive. (Very lucky because a local tango dancer actually owns one!!). I suppose you could buy a large square of smooth lino that could define the dance area.

However, if the floor is reasonably flat, it shouldn't be too much of a problem, just look at the floor at a London milonga: don't care because its the most beautiful and unusual venue. I'd guess its a rough concrete floor !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0VlXPQr9Fs

There are lots of clips of tango dancers dancing outside on non-dance floors. My only advice is PLEASE protect the followers knees - don't pivot unless you know its safe and comfortable.”

Thanks.

Have you tried the Westfield Milongas? Very smooth marble floors.
franglemand
18-12-2014
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“I got thrown by the "Oh God, I really want this. I don't want to want this. .." reference. I have never read that sort of novel.”

Really? Different school syllabus I suppose. Wuthering Heights is the epitome of that, Anna Karenina, various traditional King Arthur tales and many love poems (Shakespeare I'm thinking of particularly but I'm sure I remember others). Head vs. heart is an incredibly common narrative trope in all sorts of different types of story telling.

Originally Posted by An Thropologist:
“"Ask three dancers for their opinions on a dance and odds are you'll get three opinions. "

Just the three? I bank on at least 4 from 3 dancers. I often have 3 opinions all by myself!

I absolutely take the point you are making. I often muse that the interpretation is what lies at the heart of the perfect dance. The perfect dance that is rare but is also the drug that drives you back to the dance floor time and again in search of that perfect fix.

It comes when you happen to dance with the right person, to the right track, in the right environment. The whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts and the connection between the two of you and the music creates a sort of magic. Its the best feeling in the world.

It may be that the truth is nothing more than dancing a dance led by someone who is making the very same interpretive decisions I would have made if I had had the free reign to choose.”

Yeah, thinking about it you could probably get at least a dozen opinions out of three dancers if you tried hard enough! That's just part of the fun.

BIB: Absolutely! Sometimes someone's style just clicks with yours and it's amazing.

I've found the discussion about Northern Soul fascinating as it's not something I'd ever some across before. Was it a style specific to a particular time and place or does it still exist?
henrywilliams58
19-12-2014
Originally Posted by franglemand:
“Really? Different school syllabus I suppose. Wuthering Heights is the epitome of that, Anna Karenina, various traditional King Arthur tales and many love poems (Shakespeare I'm thinking of particularly but I'm sure I remember others). Head vs. heart is an incredibly common narrative trope in all sorts of different types of story telling.
”

Yes indeed.
coppertop1
19-12-2014
Originally Posted by franglemand:
“Really? Different school syllabus I suppose. Wuthering Heights is the epitome of that, Anna Karenina, various traditional King Arthur tales and many love poems (Shakespeare I'm thinking of particularly but I'm sure I remember others). Head vs. heart is an incredibly common narrative trope in all sorts of different types of story telling.



Yeah, thinking about it you could probably get at least a dozen opinions out of three dancers if you tried hard enough! That's just part of the fun.

BIB: Absolutely! Sometimes someone's style just clicks with yours and it's amazing.

I've found the discussion about Northern Soul fascinating as it's not something I'd ever some across before. Was it a style specific to a particular time and place or does it still exist?”

It was at its height in the 70s and early 80s based on rare Motown records, then sort of got subsumed by acid house and raves as the beat rather than the words and rarity of the music became less important. There is a revival of sort going on at the moment using mainly the old rare records. Often the original vinyl.
It started in the North, Wigan , Liverpool, Blackpool etc in large clubs, I used to dance it at the local youth club and at Rhyl. Then when it caught on it was around in The South in Southampton, Bristol etc
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...ul-1970s-dance
Potted history
Original classic tracks
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1bgR58DvLoU

Still going strong even to the fashions eek!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1bgR58DvLoU
franglemand
19-12-2014
Originally Posted by coppertop1:
“It was at its height in the 70s and early 80s based on rare Motown records, then sort of got subsumed by acid house and raves as the beat rather than the words and rarity of the music became less important. There is a revival of sort going on at the moment using mainly the old rare records. Often the original vinyl.
It started in the North, Wigan , Liverpool, Blackpool etc in large clubs, I used to dance it at the local youth club and at Rhyl. Then when it caught on it was around in The South in Southampton, Bristol etc
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...ul-1970s-dance
Potted history
Original classic tracks
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1bgR58DvLoU

Still going strong even to the fashions eek!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1bgR58DvLoU”

Cool, thanks! I'll watch the links when I get home. That's really interesting though, it's not a style I was at all familiar with and dance history fascinates me.
henrywilliams58
19-12-2014
Watch out for beginner leaders wanting to take off on the beat even after a dozen lessons rather than land on the beat. The latter is not obvious.

Really should get improver males helping with the early lessons. People who have just learned. Many teachers cannot visualise the difficulties of leaders.

And it took me well over year to learn to pivot. The mainly female teachers just whizzed around and expected me to copy.

I complimented a bloke on his pivots at a milonga. He said "head, torso, hips" and did it. I executed a head, torso, hips with no problem. Pity I wasn't told a year before.
henrywilliams58
19-12-2014
In view of the discussion on Caroline's "Shall I / Shan't I" staging of her AT I thought I'd check the lyrics but forgot the name of the song.

And just noticed that the BBC youtube on Caroline and Pasha mis-spells the name of the song in the title and also in the text below

Caroline Flack & Pasha Argentine Tango to 'La Campursita' (sic) - Strictly Come Dancing: 2014 - BBC One

Published on Dec 6, 2014 56,616 views
http://www.bbc.co.uk/strictly Caroline Flack and Pasha Kovalev dance the Argentine Tango to 'La Campursita' (sic)

Same on the BBC website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02dnwbm

Interesting that they have not yet corrected it.

http://www.verytangostore.com/la-cumparsita.html

And here is the BBC's own El Mundo site with the correct spelling Cumparsita

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/mis...00/6571557.stm

Apparently the lyrics were added long after the "little march" was composed for Uruguayan Students Union's carnival marching band. The Maroni and Contursi lyrics are all about abandoned love - as usual for a tango,.

This article including the lyrics is fascinating about the tug of rights. There are several versions but two major ones apparently.

http://www.verytangostore.com/la-cumparsita.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkfzK_nX-QM
An Thropologist
19-12-2014
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“Watch out for beginner leaders wanting to take off on the beat even after a dozen lessons rather than land on the beat. The latter is not obvious.

Really should get improver males helping with the early lessons. People who have just learned. Many teachers cannot visualise the difficulties of leaders.

And it took me well over year to learn to pivot. The mainly female teachers just whizzed around and expected me to copy.

I complimented a bloke on his pivots at a milonga. He said "head, torso, hips" and did it. I executed a head, torso, hips with no problem. Pity I wasn't told a year before.”

Different things work for different people Henry. Our teacher is male so in theory that should overcome the leader beginner hell (don't buy it BTW). But many don't pick it up in the main class. I try them with a number of analogies I keep up my sleeve. I try one, if it fails, try another. Eventually there is one that the guy usually can relate to. Horses for courses.

Also this will surprise you but some men are not great at taking instructi9on. I am off now to class where I will encounter banana man.. We have given up suggesting he straighten his posture because he gets shirty. The advanced moves never quite work for a very simple reason - he is hunched into his own and the ladie's dance space. But if he is happy who am I to argue.
henrywilliams58
19-12-2014
Originally Posted by An Thropologist:
“Different things work for different people Henry. Our teacher is male so in theory that should overcome the leader beginner hell (don't buy it BTW). But many don't pick it up in the main class. I try them with a number of analogies I keep up my sleeve. I try one, if it fails, try another. Eventually there is one that the guy usually can relate to. Horses for courses.

Also this will surprise you but some men are not great at taking instructi9on. I am off now to class where I will encounter banana man.. We have given up suggesting he straighten his posture because he gets shirty. The advanced moves never quite work for a very simple reason - he is hunched into his own and the ladie's dance space. But if he is happy who am I to argue. ”

I have no appreciation of follower difficulties except when they tell me. I must have followed for a total of 10 minutes in total in nearly 2 years.

Two things help with student posture - mirrors (as in a gym) and videos.

Is Mr Banana hunched in close or open embrace? Are the ladies happy with their turn with banana man?

Funny I would not call him Banana man as that if he heard would go to his head. I have a weird language system based on cockney rhyming slag. So I'd call him "Our Lady" from Hunchback of Notre Dame. ... (OK very weird I know)
An Thropologist
19-12-2014
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“I have no appreciation of follower difficulties except when they tell me. I must have followed for a total of 10 minutes in total in nearly 2 years.

Two things help with student posture - mirrors (as in a gym) and videos.

Is Mr Banana hunched in close or open embrace? Are the ladies happy with their turn with banana man?

Funny I would not call him Banana man as that if he heard would go to his head. I have a weird language system based on cockney rhyming slag. So I'd call him "Our Lady" from Hunchback of Notre Dame. ... (OK very weird I know)”

TBH nor would normally. I was in a hurry to get to class and needed a short hand term to describe the problem. Let's say his posture would be ideal for windsurfing and his lead is from strength alone. Until tonight I wouldn't have known how the lady students felt but two had a bit of a moan tonight as did a more advanced follower who has been away for a while and danced with him for the first time tonight.

TBF I know the posture is perhaps the hardest thing to accomplish. I have oodles of patience with anyone who is trying. My issue with him is that he thinks he is great already so any suggestion that his posture is what is preventing him from executing the lead gets quite a narky reception. His wife/GF seems to follow him OK so I suppose that is OK. So we have stopped saying anything. But what is the point in paying for a class and then not taking the instruction.

BIB - both!
An Thropologist
19-12-2014
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“In view of the discussion on Caroline's "Shall I / Shan't I" staging of her AT I thought I'd check the lyrics but forgot the name of the song.

And just noticed that the BBC youtube on Caroline and Pasha mis-spells the name of the song in the title and also in the text below

Caroline Flack & Pasha Argentine Tango to 'La Campursita' (sic) - Strictly Come Dancing: 2014 - BBC One

Published on Dec 6, 2014 56,616 views
http://www.bbc.co.uk/strictly Caroline Flack and Pasha Kovalev dance the Argentine Tango to 'La Campursita' (sic)

Same on the BBC website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02dnwbm

Interesting that they have not yet corrected it.

http://www.verytangostore.com/la-cumparsita.html

And here is the BBC's own El Mundo site with the correct spelling Cumparsita

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/mis...00/6571557.stm

Apparently the lyrics were added long after the "little march" was composed for Uruguayan Students Union's carnival marching band. The Maroni and Contursi lyrics are all about abandoned love - as usual for a tango,.

This article including the lyrics is fascinating about the tug of rights. There are several versions but two major ones apparently.

http://www.verytangostore.com/la-cumparsita.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkfzK_nX-QM”

Absolutely fascinating. Who knew? Than you for that Henry
henrywilliams58
20-12-2014
I have noticed that every time I see a wooden floor I think "Hey that would make a great floor for a Milonga."

Do I need treatment? And no I don't mean polishing.
scout2006
20-12-2014
Lauren didn't win. she didn't even make the final

I don't know which one is James and which Stephen
DiamondBetty
20-12-2014
Originally Posted by scout2006:
“Lauren didn't win. she didn't even make the final

I don't know which one is James and which Stephen ”

She's still awesome.

https://twitter.com/laurenfpatrick
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