BIB. I think what happens, An Thropologist, is that there are certain ones who pretty much tell some of us that we shouldn't rate the dance. Some of us don't know about dance much, nor care to, and we watch SCD in the spirit in which it was intended - we are the masses

We enjoy what we enjoy, and its nobody's business to lecture or dictate to us. Besides, we have eyes, and can at least tell whether something is a turkey or not. Specific threads where the technicalities are discussed would be great, for those interested. And of course even in other threads there are times for discussing them.

Completely agree. It's as if a plain remark about quality and competence at a dance is some massive slur on their favourite for some posters.


I disagree. Perfectly reasonable posts about the technical faults of some contestants, produces quite passionate and unreasonable accusations from some fans.

These DO seem to interpret any criticism of their favourite's dances as some terrible attack.

Lecturing or 'dictating' is just some misplaced perception, used as an excuse to attack perfectly danced based posts.

Its how you do it and what your starting base is connecting with the audience.There are people who can walk on a stage and make it clear they are in love with someone the other side of a stage. They can also command the stage and adience as soon as they walk on. TV actors have to do it more often than not to a camera right in front of their nose - which is very different.

SCD is complicated even more by the judges who don't see what the TV sees, and who sometimes themselves fail to see whats clearly there, or absent, either in close up or on the tV picture. Subtlety either gets missed often by the judges, or the home audience, or both.

Natalie is not helped by having Artem - who seems to go for his own vision every week and often finds one that doesn't excite, work emotionally, copy something successful, or create something beautiful.

I rest my case. Speak of the devil.

First up, just want to compliment Nartem on their routines last night, I enjoyed them both immensely. However, as we are discussing their AT, there is a moment in the routine where Natalie smiles at Artem (v. nice) but then spoils it by appearing to say something to him.

Did I imagine it? Happens at around 49 seconds in - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01ndkvg

1. Why on earth should I have any knowledge of your posting history? Is it very interesting? I don't know you from Adam. I only can and do comment upon the posts which I have seen with my eyes on the occasions I chose to come to this forum.

Do you actually understand what the word gainsay means?

2. I stated in my very first post: "People can be as critical of Natalie as they please, you often are. In fact you're one of the posters, who I often see making some barbed comment about Natalie. I don't spend much time on here, so as to your assertions that often you praise Natalie as the best dancer on the night, I cannot gainsay".

3. I certainly did not "attack" another poster, stop making things up. You certainly seem more interested in my posting history.
Bouzouki Boy only quoted a small part of my post , the words: "Also I see no one praising Natalie as if she is a saint, in this or any other thread." and I was confused, hence the icon as to where he was coming from, which he kindly clarified.

With apologies for bumping...


Anyone?

I thought their AT in the dance off was hot hot hot!! Smoking hot!! I just hope Kara didn't get upset. BTW I like Kara too and supported her.

It is awful leading a follower with a lot of ballroom tango experience - and a strong personality. They think they have to follow a set pattern and that they are right. "Which foot are you going to be leading off on?" she might ask. I reply "I haven't decided yet." That's just in a beginner class never mind executing sequences - where I will often deliberately change my mind half way through if the follower seems to be going off in a set pattern.

I am not in the slightest bit interested in Natalie. I hadn't heard of her before and will forget about her (and all the other celebs) soon.

This dance was eagerly awaited because (a) Natalie seems to be the best dancer (b) some of us are regular AT dancers. (c) the music chosen for Natalie was, for a change, appropriate for the AT and as it happens I have it on my phone.

The point of the thread was also to generate interest in AT and dance rather than discuss personalities or even what the SCD judges think is AT. We have not been not giving relative points to this AT rather somebody else's Waltz.

As it happens I would have rated Natalie and Artem's AT in the dance off as a 6 but Patrick and Anya's Waltz as a 10. But that's because I have danced AT (for less than a year) and Waltzed just once.

So I would love Patrick's Waltz to be dissected so that I could learn more and perhaps change my relative ratings as I see more.



It takes two to tango. But the leader leads all the moves. And can change direction or sequence even in mid sequence by the slightest change in head movement and mini-shift in the chest. Think Dressage [but please don't be offended by the comparison].

Oh the flicks and kicks are not carried out by the woman. [Was "clicks" a typo BTW? If not what did you mean? ] These are a natural smooth reaction by the woman as a result of the man's leads. There were no such leads given by Artem. And too many kicks and flicks and lifts for my liking - as always in SCD.

Really enjoyed this dance, but whoever decided to put Artem in the red shirt and pants with Natalie needs to be let go. She looked overpowering and he looked smaller than her. He should have been dressed in pin-striped pants, white shirt and suspenders if they didn't want to go with a suit. Of all the dances to dress them like crayons this was not it. They were dressed like a ballroom couple from the 80's.

Karen Hauer did the tango to Montserrat on SYTYCD during her season. I like this AT better to it.

That is observant. Yes well spotted.

In AT there is never anything said - except for the occasional cry of "Ouch" followed by "Sorry". The bloke can hold a woman in his arms for three dances (10 minutes) and no need to buy a drink or say anything or listen to anything and then on to another woman ... Sheer bliss. [sorry just joking ...]

While looking for it at 34:00 Artem and Natalie release left and right (resp.) hands and he caresses her side and as she lifts her right knee he pushes the knee down.

WTF?!! I know this is SCD's "AT" and a show dance but AT is always in hold. That's faffing abaht.

Yes I agree with you and Anthro. Too much foaming rabid paranoia about.

Unfortunately perhaps best to move dance subjects into the attic so a dance can be dissected analytically for us all to learn form each other. I'd love Patrick's Waltz, which I rated a 10, to be dissected.

I don't care what anyone thinks about their AT. I thoroughly enjoyed it and felt Natalie and Artem had so much chemistry, I got a bit worried that it might become an adults only show.

Like bornfree above, I thought it was fab-u-lous.

and so did yellowlabbie

The second time (in the DO) I did, they had a seriously short time in training, and I thought it was brilliant for such a short amount of training time. The second time felt intense and looked very close!!

You can see it in his singing
http://youtu.be/Sk7_HY9svAw

Or maybe the studio lights were too hot?

Not applicable here. But many authors hate translations of their work. The Spanish translation of my first book was appalling - and that by a university professor. Unknown to my publishers my Spanish is fluent. All the jokes were translated literally

Excellent work Anthro.

BIB. The man also always has his weight on one leg only.

What would be interesting is the celebs and pros were not allowed to train with each other for the AT and then to see how they get on. I guess, to make it fair, everyone would have to do AT that week and I'm not sure if the public and producers could cope with that.

I agree. But just to translate form the US (in case somebody isn't aware) and before the ladies and some of the men get too excited ...

US pants = UK trousers
UK pants = US/UK underpants
US suspenders = UK braces
UK suspenders = US garter belt

So a vision of Artem in a red shirt tucked into his underpants and a garter belt to hold up his thigh high stockings is for another forum perhaps ...

She is not the jealous kind . She supports Artem all the way , and the AT was a masterpiece if ever there was one . Nicole Cutler, Kristina Rihanoff, Robin Windsor , James Jordan and Ola all commented on it,its such ahard dance to pull off.

I have looked time and time again I saw the inviting smile at him , but she does not speak to him, just opens her lips slightly as ladies do at times like that .

Yes. Very observant of you if you have not danced AT.

I was all set to go to Midnight Tango - until my eyes were opened by going to AT classes early this year.


I've been learning for a year and am still cr@p ...

Much easier for followers.

I'm not a ballroom expert by any stretch but, for me, the biggest problem with Patrick's waltz was that it didn't seem to flow. It's characterised by the rise and fall, the long continuous glide of movement as the dancers parade around the dance floor, stopping only for a spin (or reverse turn) before heading off again in a graceful series of "one, two, three" steps (simplifying here) and in a permanent hold (which once scandalised society because of how close the man held the woman ).
On the bit of footage of his feet that they showed, he also seemed to be missing an occasional heel lead so the steps appeared to be placed (like when you walk) rather than naturally coming from the previous step (if that makes any sense).
I was disappointed because I'd absolutely loved his Viennese Waltz and so thought the slower, less spinny, Waltz would have been just as good.

And this is where there is always going to be a problem on SCD with the dances that the pros are less familar with.

Question: If in the course of a performance of a pre-choreographed routine, the leader fails to lead the follower into pre-arranged moves and instead stands still, should the follower continue with the routine or should they also stop dancing?

If Natalie started moving too early for Artem to give the lead, then that is her fault for anticipating the moves and it's correct to mark that down if it's noticed.

If Artem just didn't give her the leads... should Natalie have stopped? Should she be marked down for stopping? Should she be marked down for continuing to dance?

Personally I think in something like SCD it's better to continue than refuse to dance without first being led. Admittedly this is something I considered and made a decision about some years ago (university circuit ballroom competitions, I had a partner who just didn't lead certain steps (especially in jive and cha cha cha) and was a bit hit and miss generally with both leading and remembering the routine in competitions). In social dancing I'll always do my best to wait for someone to lead me. In a show it's significantly less awkward and embarrassing (and frustrating!) for everyone concerned to just keep going, in my opinion.

Reasons I would think Patrick's waltz might not have got a 10:

- His initial lunge at the top of the steps looks awkward to me because his bum isn't tucked under enough to create a smooth line from his back leg to the top of his head and as a result he's straining slightly with his arms and upper body to reach Anya.
- In the waltz steps he does before they take up hold, he's not lowering enough before beat one and as a result can't stride out as much as he would otherwise be able to. This contributes to the judges' comments that he needs to drive through more - if he lowered more before beat one, he'd be able to stride out more strongly on his forward or backward step.
- In the initial waltz steps he does as they take up hold (before the camera pans up so we can't see the feet), he steps forward twice on a toe (or slightly flat foot) instead of a heel lead. Again, this is impeding his ability to take a strong step forward on beat one. Taking this point with the one before, allowing for camera work not really showing the feet and Len's comments on the matter, I think it's fair to say that his footwork is a bit hit and miss generally.
- In the steps around the 00:53 mark (before they pause and then go into the standing spin) you can see his frame faltering - his left arm drops and the elbow straightens and bends as they turn
- In the standing spin itself his head inclines
- His free arm when out of hold is odd at times. I think Anya's told him to put it always on his hip but you can often see him remembering to put it there and hold it in place. Sometimes it works (when he remembers to properly pull up and play the traditional English gentleman), sometimes it looks unnatural. It seems picky I know but it's the kind of thing Craig would pick up on.
- His hold in general is much, much improved from his Viennese Waltz but it's sometimes a bit tight around the shoulders. Maybe I'm being unfair and it's just the jacket but I'd like to see it slightly broader across the shoulders and steadier out to the arms. As with his free arm, there are moments it looks really good and moment where it looks self-conscious and slightly uncomfortable.

Disclaimer: there are others on the board who are significantly more experienced than me, this is just my opinion. Overall I really like the dance and I think he improved in the dance-off but it's still not a 10 for me. There are clear errors in technique and just... it could be better. We've seen better waltzes from celebrity men and I can see how Patrick specifically would be able to make it better with more time, more practice (improving the footwork would improve his movement across the floor and the dynamism of the dance, improving his shoulders and arms would make it look more polished etc.).