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Argentine Tango Talk
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henrywilliams58
15-12-2013
Originally Posted by Cadiva:
“I'm not a ballroom expert by any stretch but, for me, the biggest problem with Patrick's waltz was that it didn't seem to flow. It's characterised by the rise and fall, the long continuous glide of movement as the dancers parade around the dance floor, stopping only for a spin (or reverse turn) before heading off again in a graceful series of "one, two, three" steps (simplifying here) and in a permanent hold (which once scandalised society because of how close the man held the woman ).

On the bit of footage of his feet that they showed, he also seemed to be missing an occasional heel lead so the steps appeared to be placed (like when you walk) rather than naturally coming from the previous step (if that makes any sense).

I was disappointed because I'd absolutely loved his Viennese Waltz and so thought the slower, less spinny, Waltz would have been just as good.”

Thanks for that. Interesting. I'll look at it again.
yungathart
15-12-2013
Originally Posted by yellowlabbie:
“and so did yellowlabbie”

and so did yungathart, I loved it .so intense,I felt like an intruder ,who should not have been watching .
henrywilliams58
15-12-2013
Originally Posted by franglemand:
“And this is where there is always going to be a problem on SCD with the dances that the pros are less familar with.

Question: If in the course of a performance of a pre-choreographed routine, the leader fails to lead the follower into pre-arranged moves and instead stands still, should the follower continue with the routine or should they also stop dancing?

If Natalie started moving too early for Artem to give the lead, then that is her fault for anticipating the moves and it's correct to mark that down if it's noticed.

If Artem just didn't give her the leads... should Natalie have stopped? Should she be marked down for stopping? Should she be marked down for continuing to dance?

Personally I think in something like SCD it's better to continue than refuse to dance without first being led. Admittedly this is something I considered and made a decision about some years ago (university circuit ballroom competitions, I had a partner who just didn't lead certain steps (especially in jive and cha cha cha) and was a bit hit and miss generally with both leading and remembering the routine in competitions). In social dancing I'll always do my best to wait for someone to lead me. In a show it's significantly less awkward and embarrassing (and frustrating!) for everyone concerned to just keep going, in my opinion.

Reasons I would think Patrick's waltz might not have got a 10:

- His initial lunge at the top of the steps looks awkward to me because his bum isn't tucked under enough to create a smooth line from his back leg to the top of his head and as a result he's straining slightly with his arms and upper body to reach Anya.
- In the waltz steps he does before they take up hold, he's not lowering enough before beat one and as a result can't stride out as much as he would otherwise be able to. This contributes to the judges' comments that he needs to drive through more - if he lowered more before beat one, he'd be able to stride out more strongly on his forward or backward step.
- In the initial waltz steps he does as they take up hold (before the camera pans up so we can't see the feet), he steps forward twice on a toe (or slightly flat foot) instead of a heel lead. Again, this is impeding his ability to take a strong step forward on beat one. Taking this point with the one before, allowing for camera work not really showing the feet and Len's comments on the matter, I think it's fair to say that his footwork is a bit hit and miss generally.
- In the steps around the 00:53 mark (before they pause and then go into the standing spin) you can see his frame faltering - his left arm drops and the elbow straightens and bends as they turn
- In the standing spin itself his head inclines
- His free arm when out of hold is odd at times. I think Anya's told him to put it always on his hip but you can often see him remembering to put it there and hold it in place. Sometimes it works (when he remembers to properly pull up and play the traditional English gentleman), sometimes it looks unnatural. It seems picky I know but it's the kind of thing Craig would pick up on.
- His hold in general is much, much improved from his Viennese Waltz but it's sometimes a bit tight around the shoulders. Maybe I'm being unfair and it's just the jacket but I'd like to see it slightly broader across the shoulders and steadier out to the arms. As with his free arm, there are moments it looks really good and moment where it looks self-conscious and slightly uncomfortable.

Disclaimer: there are others on the board who are significantly more experienced than me, this is just my opinion. Overall I really like the dance and I think he improved in the dance-off but it's still not a 10 for me. There are clear errors in technique and just... it could be better. We've seen better waltzes from celebrity men and I can see how Patrick specifically would be able to make it better with more time, more practice (improving the footwork would improve his movement across the floor and the dynamism of the dance, improving his shoulders and arms would make it look more polished etc.).”

Much appreciated analysis. Now to see if I can spot these in Patrick's dance.

BIB: On a personal level I would never dance a choreographed dance. Some AT schools have an end of term class performance. I avoid such schools. For SCD the show must go on of course. It does take a few viewings of the action replay to spot the nuances of the dance anyway - especially for those who have little knowledge of a particular dance.
Chantal
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by Ignazio:
“Well I'm sure those who did attend did so for altruistic reasons - perish the thought that they prospered from their attendance by attracting more votes.

Incidentally I wonder why the SCD producers showed only Sophie at the party - with no sign of Patrick, Susannah or Abbey.”

Abbey was shown centre-screen stroking the head of the beautiful baby Sophie was holding.
DiamondBetty
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“
So a vision of Artem in a red shirt tucked into his underpants and a garter belt to hold up his thigh high stockings is for another forum perhaps ...”

Hush now, before you give the producers a new idea for a theme week

Franglemand, I absolutely agree. Usually when dancing as a follow the priority is to follow the lead (if I know they are experienced, I might chuck in some footwork embellishments or change up a rhythm to better hit the musical phrase without disturbing their lead*) but if it were a performance situation** and my partner froze then hell yes. I'd be back leading like mad hoping to jog their memory, or cover up the problem.




* if I were dancing with a good friend I might hijack a move, or steal the lead role entirely and have them follow me for a bit, because while I believe leading and following is a conversation it is sometimes fun to not give the boys the final say!

**Unlikely because I avoid such things as much as possible, most recently humiliating myself with a Tap performance to the theme from Footloose. Shudder!
Cadiva
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“On a personal level I would never dance a choreographed dance.”

For AT I presume you mean, rather than dancing in general?

Originally Posted by DiamondBetty:
“**Unlikely because I avoid such things as much as possible, most recently humiliating myself with a Tap performance to the theme from Footloose. Shudder!”

My most hated public performance was having to do a tap routine to the irritatingly twee England Swings (although our version sang London rather than England) while wearing a sort of bastardised sailor girl suit
DiamondBetty
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by Cadiva:
“For AT I presume you mean, rather than dancing in general?



My most hated public performance was having to do a tap routine to the irritatingly twee England Swings (although our version sang London rather than England) while wearing a sort of bastardised sailor girl suit ”

Teehee! Feels cathartic to confess though, huh?
henrywilliams58
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by Cadiva:
“For AT I presume you mean, rather than dancing in general?

...”

Dancing in general. I couldn't possibly remember a 90 second dance as per SCD never mind the 5 minute efforts in group dances. That's why I dance AT. So I can pretend I have changed my mind or better still that I had planned the unexpected when in fact I have had a brain fade as to what I was going to do.

Originally Posted by DiamondBetty:
“ ... it is sometimes fun to not give the boys the final say!

.”

Girls can have the last oh so cutting laugh. Nothing more painful than a snigger when your lead goes astray - or "Is that all you are going to do? Don't you know anything else?". Or even frown or a grimace.

The snigger is the other side of leading.
henrywilliams58
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by Cadiva:
“..
My most hated public performance was having to do a tap routine to the irritatingly twee England Swings (although our version sang London rather than England) while wearing a sort of bastardised sailor girl suit ”

Does that count as child abuse?
Cadiva
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by DiamondBetty:
“Teehee! Feels cathartic to confess though, huh? ”

Oh God yes! I hated it with the passion of a burning sun (as the saying goes ) and it was twee beyond measure.
One of my favourite routines though was a contemporary one to the Flight of the Bumble Bee by Rimsky-Korsakov, it involved a hell of a lot of leaping around in bare feet and loads of lifting with some seriously sexy blokes (who went on to dance for Phoenix and the Northern Ballet Theatre as it was back then)

Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“Dancing in general.”

I can see your point, I've done both and I find I tend to prefer it when there's a loose structure to the dance with set choreography but still with freedom to express individual moments, contemporary dance works best for this. Although, having said that, perfectly choreographed dance, no matter what the style, which is performed with emotion and passion will always get me.

Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“Does that count as child abuse?”

Very probably! Although possibly not as much as having to dance dressed as a hen during a production of Michael Hird's Pop Cantatas including Jonah Man Jazz and Rooster Rag. The big difference being I absolutely loved the song (Chanticleer) in that case though and enjoyed every minute of it.
DiamondBetty
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by Cadiva:
“Oh God yes! I hated it with the passion of a burning sun (as the saying goes ) and it was twee beyond measure.
One of my favourite routines though was a contemporary one to the Flight of the Bumble Bee by Rimsky-Korsakov, it involved a hell of a lot of leaping around in bare feet and loads of lifting with some seriously sexy blokes (who went on to dance for Phoenix and the Northern Ballet Theatre as it was back then) ”

See? The universe took care of you and redressed the balance

I had a horrible festival routine to 'Scarlet Ribbons' when I was about 8. Nearly 30 years later I'm still cringing.
DiamondBetty
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“


Girls can have the last oh so cutting laugh. Nothing more painful than a snigger when your lead goes astray - or "Is that all you are going to do? Don't you know anything else?". Or even frown or a grimace.

The snigger is the other side of leading.”

Aw, Henry, I would never do that, in fact, I have a carefully considered stash of encouraging words for leads that are kind, yet truthful

And I always say thank you after a dance. Always.
Rhumbatugger
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“Dancing in general. I couldn't possibly remember a 90 second dance as per SCD never mind the 5 minute efforts in group dances. That's why I dance AT. So I can pretend I have changed my mind or better still that I had planned the unexpected when in fact I have had a brain fade as to what I was going to do.



Girls can have the last oh so cutting laugh. Nothing more painful than a snigger when your lead goes astray - or "Is that all you are going to do? Don't you know anything else?". Or even frown or a grimace.

The snigger is the other side of leading.”


I've always tried to help when men freeze or go wrong. I have been told though, on occasion 'don't lead, I know what I'm doing', when they were out of time as well as hopelessly confused.

I think it made them feel all manly and in charge.

Most of the time, the men either don't notice or are silently grateful I get them over a blank moment or ten seconds.

It ain't easy for the girls either.
Cadiva
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by DiamondBetty:
“See? The universe took care of you and redressed the balance ”

I was incredibly lucky, I was just the right age and a teacher at my middle school was friends with the amazing Nadine Senior who had started running dance classes as part of her PE lessons for kids who went to Harehills Middle School in Leeds (incredibly deprived area of the city). She was inspiring and to see all these kids (from ethnic minorities, mixed race, etc) who had been utterly directionless before her suddenly become interested in dance was a privilege.
I danced with her for two years before she left the school to go and found the Northern School of Contemporary Dance (and around the same time I discovered boys and a love of rugby league so dancing started to take a back seat )

Originally Posted by DiamondBetty:
“I had a horrible festival routine to 'Scarlet Ribbons' when I was about 8. Nearly 30 years later I'm still cringing.”

Poor Betty (hug) that's a sickly sweet song too (although I love Harry Belafonte's voice).
henrywilliams58
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by DiamondBetty:
“Aw, Henry, I would never do that, in fact, I have a carefully considered stash of encouraging words for leads that are kind, yet truthful

And I always say thank you after a dance. Always.”

Originally Posted by Rhumbatugger:
“I've always tried to help when men freeze or go wrong. I have been told though, on occasion 'don't lead, I know what I'm doing', when they were out of time as well as hopelessly confused.

I think it made them feel all manly and in charge.

Most of the time, the men either don't notice or are silently grateful I get them over a blank moment or ten seconds.

It ain't easy for the girls either.”

Thanks. Love you both.
henrywilliams58
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by Rhumbatugger:
“...

It ain't easy for the girls either.”

I can imagine it is terrible not being asked for a dance.

In AT Milongas I have had the odd snigger but seldom a refusal. I'm thick skinned anyway.
slappers r us
16-12-2013
well, I thought their AT was wonderful
Rhumbatugger
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“I can imagine it is terrible not being asked for a dance.

In AT Milongas I have had the odd snigger but seldom a refusal. I'm thick skinned anyway.”

Stay strong, and you've got far more women to choose from than we have men.

Dance with the nice ones
Cadiva
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“I can imagine it is terrible not being asked for a dance.

In AT Milongas I have had the odd snigger but seldom a refusal. I'm thick skinned anyway.”

I'd dance with you Henry, although as I'm now 43, at least six stones heavier than in my dancing days (thank you five-year-old son) and have torn the ligaments in my right ankle twice, you might want to politely turn me down
henrywilliams58
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by Cadiva:
“...

Poor Betty (hug) that's a sickly sweet song too (although I love Harry Belafonte's voice).”

Both BIBs

You have heard this Harry Belafonte recently.

Harry Belafonte - Unchained Melody (1956)
http://youtu.be/iObOFnO5Qoo

And then this ... let's do sitting down samba now ..

Harry Belafonte - Angelina (1961)
http://youtu.be/xuSEl-gG6mw
Cadiva
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“Both BIBs

You have heard this Harry Belafonte recently.

Harry Belafonte - Unchained Melody (1956)
http://youtu.be/iObOFnO5Qoo

And then this ... let's do sitting down samba now ..

Harry Belafonte - Angelina (1961)
http://youtu.be/xuSEl-gG6mw”

I love Angelina

Speaking of Harry Belafonte, I'd love to see someone dancing to either The Banana Boat Song or to Jump In Line. I don't think either of them have been used on SCD.
henrywilliams58
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by Cadiva:
“I'd dance with you Henry, although as I'm now 43, at least six stones heavier than in my dancing days (thank you five-year-old son) and have torn the ligaments in my right ankle twice, you might want to politely turn me down ”

I'd Love to dance as well.

Better do something about that weight (13st 6lbs now? ).

I thought I was well overweight at 82Kg in January this year now down to still overweight 73Kg. I phoned a friend this afternoon and he had suffered a heart attack earlier this month. He is 43, 5ft 6ins and 95 Kg (15st) down from 105 Kg (16st 8lbs) last year.

Christmas is not good for weight control.
An Thropologist
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by Rhumbatugger:
“I've always tried to help when men freeze or go wrong. I have been told though, on occasion 'don't lead, I know what I'm doing', when they were out of time as well as hopelessly confused.

I think it made them feel all manly and in charge.

Most of the time, the men either don't notice or are silently grateful I get them over a blank moment or ten seconds.

It ain't easy for the girls either.”

Indeed it isn't. Every lead is unique and each lead ever so slightly different. Henry imagine going to say a networking event and spending 3 minutes talking to each of maybe 20 different people all of whom were speaking English but each with a different accent. Now imagine some of those accents are so broad that the English is barely intelligible, then add some stutters, stammers, a few uhhmm and errs and you will have an appreciation of the instructions we are getting. Instructions we are expected to interpret and respond to instantaneously.

And don't even get me started on the guy who gives a lead, changes his mind and tries to withdraw it. . Or God love em the ones that, sticking with the metaphor , quietly mumble their lead and when the follower mistakes it and delivers something else, rather than pick up from what she did rather than what he wanted her to do, makes her go back and do it again or stops and waits until she does what he had in mind. LOL. Meanwhile of course the musical moment has been and gone.

Each and every one of you is wonderfully unique and its all part of the fun but don't be under the misapprehension that following is easy babe. x
Cadiva
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“I'd Love to dance as well.

Better do something about that weight (13st 6lbs now? ).”

I wish (and how kind of you ) and I know I should but, you know what, most of the time I just don't care, it's come through enjoying life I know it's not healthy but nine times out of 10, it doesn't affect my daily activities.
What I need to do is go swimming for a while to get myself a bit fitter and slightly more in shape and then go find a local dance class that won't be too bad for the old ankle.
henrywilliams58
16-12-2013
Originally Posted by Cadiva:
“I wish (and how kind of you ) and I know I should but, you know what, most of the time I just don't care, it's come through enjoying life I know it's not healthy but nine times out of 10, it doesn't affect my daily activities.
What I need to do is go swimming for a while to get myself a bit fitter and slightly more in shape and then go find a local dance class that won't be too bad for the old ankle.”

I go Boris Biking (as fast as I can) in Hyde Park every day. That has spared my knees if not the jaywalking tourists ...

Surgery comes to everyone and you don't want to be overweight under GA.
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