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BBC One HD Regions and BBC Two HD Nations Proposals?


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Old 23-12-2013, 07:49
IanP
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When the BBC announced it's intention to launch five new HD channels back in July it also said
In addition, within the next six months, the BBC will present to the BBC Trust a proposal covering the technical options and timetable to launch English Regional variants of BBC One HD and variants of BBC Two HD for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
The Trust approved the launch of five new network simulcast High Definition (HD) television channels for BBC Three, BBC Four, CBBC, CBeebies and BBC News in September. The Trust's Conclusions also asked for
the Executive to come back to the Trust no later than January 2014 to set out the technical options and timetable to launch English Regional variants of BBC One HD and Nations variants of BBC Two HD for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
With January 2014 rapidly approaching is there any news yet on the proposals of the BBC executive for this?
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Old 23-12-2013, 08:04
mossy2103
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Not heard anything, but the January deadline could be any time up to 31st Jan, so there could be some time to go.
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Old 23-12-2013, 09:33
lotrjw
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Not heard anything, but the January deadline could be any time up to 31st Jan, so there could be some time to go.
I would think that nothing will now happen till after the new year due to Christmas ect anyway? I agree that is likely to be the end of January, based on nothing being done over Christmas and new year.
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Old 20-01-2014, 09:35
Radiomike
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Thought it might be worth giving this thread a bump.

I think the BBC need to give some thought as to whether the BBC Two national regions represent an easy saving.

Looking at this week the "original" programming on BBC Two Sco/Wal/NI, as opposed to timeshifting of Dad's Army etc is as follows:-

SCOTLAND (4hr 50 mins - no variations on 2 days)

Sun - 6.00 to 7.00 River City
Tue - 9.00 to 10.00 Referendum Debate
Wed - 2.30 to 3.30 Politics Scotland
Thu - 12.00 to 12.30 Politics Scotland

plus Newsnight Scotland Mon to Thu 11.00 to 11.20

WALES (1hr 15 mins - no variations on 5 days)

Tue - 1.45 to 2.30 am.pm
Fri - 7.00 to 7.30 Sport Wales

NORTHERN IRELAND ( 2hrs - no variations on 4 days)

Mon - 11.20 to 11.50 Stormont Today
Tue - 10.00 to 10.30 Getaways
Tue - 11.20 to 11.50 Stormont Today
Thu - 10.00 to 10.30 The Arts Show

Does that really justify all the current costs of transmitting national variations of BBC Two plus the added cost of HD variants down the line. Most, if not all, of the above programmes could easily be moved to slots on BBC One. An easy, and justifiable, saving IMO on any rational analysis. The money saved could be better spent elsewhere. As to BBC One HD regions for England they need to consider what options are available for keeping the costs down in that regard.
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Old 20-01-2014, 10:27
lotrjw
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Thought it might be worth giving this thread a bump.

I think the BBC need to give some thought as to whether the BBC Two national regions represent an easy saving.

Looking at this week the "original" programming on BBC Two Sco/Wal/NI, as opposed to timeshifting of Dad's Army etc is as follows:-

SCOTLAND (4hr 50 mins - no variations on 2 days)

Sun - 6.00 to 7.00 River City
Tue - 9.00 to 10.00 Referendum Debate
Wed - 2.30 to 3.30 Politics Scotland
Thu - 12.00 to 12.30 Politics Scotland

plus Newsnight Scotland Mon to Thu 11.00 to 11.20

WALES (1hr 15 mins - no variations on 5 days)

Tue - 1.45 to 2.30 am.pm
Fri - 7.00 to 7.30 Sport Wales

NORTHERN IRELAND ( 2hrs - no variations on 4 days)

Mon - 11.20 to 11.50 Stormont Today
Tue - 10.00 to 10.30 Getaways
Tue - 11.20 to 11.50 Stormont Today
Thu - 10.00 to 10.30 The Arts Show

Does that really justify all the current costs of transmitting national variations of BBC Two plus the added cost of HD variants down the line. Most, if not all, of the above programmes could easily be moved to slots on BBC One. An easy, and justifiable, saving IMO on any rational analysis. The money saved could be better spent elsewhere. As to BBC One HD regions for England they need to consider what options are available for keeping the costs down in that regard.
Well This is easy from my prospective the Wales Sports program could go to S4C which would give that channel a needed boost, as far as I know that channel already carries news done by BBC!
Some of BBC Two Scotland could move to BBC Alba where possible, the rest move to BBC 1 as will need to be done with all of Northern Ireland programming and the other extra Wales programming.

If I were deciding things I would also say all regions and nations on BBC 1 should be moved to BBC 2, as regional news could just be scheduled on BBC 2 straight after the national news on BBC 1!
This would mean that during sport events the national news could switch to BBC 2 before regional news and BBC 1 could carry on with a national sport event.
BBC 1 could carry something like the sports news program thats on the News channel during the regional news time slot on BBC 1, so that people could switch back to BBC 1 for any other programs and not miss them, or have the option to watch the BBC News channel program on BBC 1 while they wait for the regional news to finish on BBC 2.

It would also mean that if say the Nations have opted for a sports game, then it would be able to run though and not be restricted by the main national news on BBC 1!
The only issue I see is the regional news in breakfast, but it could be solved by putting breakfast on BBC 2, not the greatest solution, but unless someone can come up with a better one, it would be the only one that works with my idea.

This Idea would also mean that BBC 1, which would be a national channel only, which would mean that on Sky say the swap would happen on BBC 1 for people everywhere!
Also the issue people have with going from HD to SD from the national to regional news, wouldnt be as they would need to switch channels to BBC 2 for the regional news instead!
There would be no need for a caption on BBC 2 HD England in that time as the national newsreader would just say that the regional news is on 2 freeview/youview and 102 everywhere else! BBC 2 HD England could then show something else! The Nations could carry on showing their regional news on their HD opt out which would then be BBC 2 HD!
As more HD regions come online BBC 2 HD would start showing England regional news!
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Old 20-01-2014, 10:51
mossy2103
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I can foresee that this proposal would not be seen as positive from those in the nations, especially where less London-centric broadcasting is concerned, and especially those in Scotland (quite understandably).
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Old 20-01-2014, 11:00
lotrjw
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I can foresee that this proposal would not be seen as positive from those in the nations, especially where less London-centric broadcasting is concerned, and especially those in Scotland (quite understandably).
In Scotland they will most likely just vote yes to independence quicker and then change their TV to be whatever they want.

The news would be the only London centric thing on BBC 1 anyway as programs like Sunday Politics and Inside Out would have to go to BBC 2 to say regional!
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Old 20-01-2014, 11:44
mossy2103
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So, in truth, you are supporting a move that would be seen as very divisive as far as people in the nations are concerned. Moving nations-specific programming to what can only be described as niche stations catering for a very narrow nations audience would not be viewed at all favourably in the nations as a whole

Meanwhile the issue of regional programming on BBC one HD isn't going to be an issue much longer anyway.

And when I said "London-centric", I was really referring to England-centric programming (most of which comes from London, and then Salford).
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Old 20-01-2014, 13:00
Radiomike
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Being realistic there is no prospect of the BBC turning BBC One into a purely national channel and putting regional programming whether for the English regions or the various nations onto BBC Two and/or BBC Alba/S4C.

My point was that there is a distinct cost saving to be made by operating BBC Two as a UK wide channel and putting all regional programming onto BBC One. ie the cost of operating and transmitting SD and HD variants of BBC Two in Sco/Wal/NI is a difficult one to justify going forward given how little original material is broadcast on those variants and the ability of BBC One to absorb that programming.

However it is also hard to justify the cost of broadcasting 15 separate BBC One HD channels for the English regions on all platforms (in addition to the 15 SD channels) given the relatively limited amount of actual regional output involved. Some of that cost could be recouped by operating BBC Two purely as a UK wide channel. There may also be a need to look at other solutions such as reducing the numbers of regions, finding another solution for transmission of the regional element using the German approach as a possibility, moving from the current approach on Sky to an increasingly HD approach and so on.

It will be interesting to learn what is put before the BBC Trust.
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Old 26-01-2014, 21:19
flamingoodmedia
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Looking at the way the BBC red button works on digital platforms, there's allocated video bandwidth elsewhere hidden / not on the EPG, save for Freeview where it's channel 301 or something from memory ... it would be easier for the BBC to perhaps shunt regional news programming to there where national news on BBC One can say "and for the latest news where you live, press your red button now" before carrying on with perhaps more in-depth news and analysis on the main BBC One HD service. The same could apply to local politics and 'Inside Out' which could be delivered via the existing red button transport streams or even the iPlayer as people move more & more to watching that way. It's the cheapest option I'd of thought, better than multiple BBC One HD's !
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Old 26-01-2014, 21:36
Westy2
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Perhaps if the rights holders and / or BBC management didn't insist on various events going on BBC1 as well as the regional programmes, you wouldn't get the current issue.

In other words, Andy Murray stays on Bbc 2, regional programmes stay on BBC1.

I thought the original idea for the English regions moving to BBC1 was for them to get better ratings?
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Old 26-01-2014, 22:20
lotrjw
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Looking at the way the BBC red button works on digital platforms, there's allocated video bandwidth elsewhere hidden / not on the EPG, save for Freeview where it's channel 301 or something from memory ... it would be easier for the BBC to perhaps shunt regional news programming to there where national news on BBC One can say "and for the latest news where you live, press your red button now" before carrying on with perhaps more in-depth news and analysis on the main BBC One HD service. The same could apply to local politics and 'Inside Out' which could be delivered via the existing red button transport streams or even the iPlayer as people move more & more to watching that way. It's the cheapest option I'd of thought, better than multiple BBC One HD's !

I think it might work in that where all the regional variations of BBC 1 are already on the EPG in the 900's, the BBC would have an inbuilt red button depository on Dsat all of a sudden!

The regional news would need to be on the EPG though so all the slots in the 900s would need to be kept!

Think about it (apart form the nations which have a lot more of their own programming anyway so they need their own BBC 1 region ect), BBC 1 in England is duplicated almost exactly!
This is a major waste of bandwidth on Dsat, so imagine that each region that is on the EPG is a different red button stream!
Great for sporting events as we could have as many streams (up to 15) as the BBC wanted!

They wouldnt need to rent extra streams on Dsat as they need them all the time.

Also when DVB-S2 becomes the norm, they could close the SD streams during most of the day and use them for HD streams, while keeping the SD streams for the regional news.

In fact when DVB-S2 is the norm for the BBC, they could just use very low bit rate HD for the regional news feeds and then increase the bit rates and have less feeds for sport streams as HD red buttons!
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Old 27-01-2014, 01:00
Radiomike
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Perhaps if the rights holders and / or BBC management didn't insist on various events going on BBC1 as well as the regional programmes, you wouldn't get the current issue.

In other words, Andy Murray stays on Bbc 2, regional programmes stay on BBC1.

I thought the original idea for the English regions moving to BBC1 was for them to get better ratings?
Not sure where you got that idea. The English regions have always been primarily on BBC One. And this thread is about launching HD versions of BBC One for the English Regions and versions of BBC Two HD in Sco/Wal/NI - nothing to do with whether the likes of Andy Murray's Wimbledon matches are on BBC One (leading to cancellation of regional news) or Two. That is a different issue altogether. I do agree your solution for that though - on BBC Two for the duration of the regional news then by all means move to BBC One.
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Old 27-01-2014, 09:24
ftv
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Perhaps if the rights holders and / or BBC management didn't insist on various events going on BBC1 as well as the regional programmes, you wouldn't get the current issue.

In other words, Andy Murray stays on Bbc 2, regional programmes stay on BBC1.

I thought the original idea for the English regions moving to BBC1 was for them to get better ratings?
Currently the English regions do not have the capability of opting in to BBC2, although that could change but it would require a huge technical investment at a time when the BBC is trying to cut costs, not increase them. The conversion of English regional studios to HD is moving slowly, only Manchester and London are fully equipped with Plymouth due by the autumn of 2014.
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Old 27-01-2014, 10:39
lotrjw
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Currently the English regions do not have the capability of opting in to BBC2, although that could change but it would require a huge technical investment at a time when the BBC is trying to cut costs, not increase them. The conversion of English regional studios to HD is moving slowly, only Manchester and London are fully equipped with Plymouth due by the autumn of 2014.
If the BBC didnt route their network BBC 1 down to the regions and then have them opt there, but instead had a mass opt hub at RedBee where a feed from each set of regional studios came into.
Then it would mean that the HD regions could be done more cheaply and BBC 2 could be opted easily.
Although it would mean that Dsat would need a rearrange, maybe do as someone else has suggested before and have 1 main feed for BBC 1 and BBC 2 in England, but when regional programming comes on it would split into all the different regional feeds all of a sudden and peoples boxes would just work out the right one with whatever postcode it uses to do so.
BBC 1 HD and BBC 2 HD would instantly become regional too like this and the regional content could just be low bitrate HD, which especially wouldnt matter if it was just upscaling SD from a regional news studio.

Also all that extra bandwith could then be used as red button feeds during the rest of the time, meaning sports events could say have 10 medium quality streams and 5 high quality streams depending on what the BBC wanted!
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Old 27-01-2014, 11:59
technologist
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In fact because telco circuits are symmetric .. The regions loop is not that much extra cost .... And has a great operational flexibility in that the region can see in real time what it is outputting.

Yes to have opt switches centrally ... At code and mux is an alternative. But it requires good signalling ...
Like channel island , bluebell hill and sandy Heath had in analogue days ....

Getting stb to switch streams is not simple .... And rarely clean..
Thus not seamless as breakfast and the one and six opts are....
These are. Only 30'secs long ,,
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Old 27-01-2014, 12:01
jimbo
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I think the Germans do something similar with their regional channel 3s.

ORF 2 splits like that I think also.

As for BBC1, what yo suggest was done in the early 2000s. In 2002, they had the five red button channels used for egional news, but it was only on for part of the day.

It would be broadcast only from 1745-1900 weekdays. Sometimes a blank screen was carried all day, sometimes BBC1 network (with UK Today). The DOG for five main regions was carried sometimes for 24 hours a day.

In 2002 during the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City, three of the regions were moved to 12.285 V while about four out of 5 of the existing streams were used for the Winter Olympics.

The transmission arrangements at that time were awful. If you had satellite only, which I did, and no terrestrial arial, I had no local news except at dinner time.

The only exception was some bank holidays, where the service was put on air for two five minute bulletins (dinner time and late news).

It would certainly help if the BBC muxes were DVB-S2 SD then all the 18 regions could be put on one mux. HD could be put on four muxes or even three.

For BBC2, if they can fit over 20 channels on a mux, all BBC2s could be on the same mux as BBC1s, and for HD, one other mux.

The BBC are currently using six muxes - four in SD and two in HD. They could convert one of the other four muxes to HD and DVB-S2, convert one to DVB-S2 SD and then everyone is happy.

We'll have to wait and see what happens. In India, they have 74 channels on one DVB-S2 SD mux!
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Old 27-01-2014, 12:04
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I think the Germans do something similar with their regional channel 3s.

ORF 2 splits like that I think also.

As for BBC1, what yo suggest was done in the early 2000s. In 2002, they had the five red button channels used for egional news, but it was only on for part of the day.

It would be broadcast only from 1745-1900 weekdays. Sometimes a blank screen was carried all day, sometimes BBC1 network (with UK Today). The DOG for five main regions was carried sometimes for 24 hours a day.

In 2002 during the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City, three of the regions were moved to 12.285 V while about four out of 5 of the existing streams were used for the Winter Olympics.

The transmission arrangements at that time were awful. If you had satellite only, which I did, and no terrestrial arial, I had no local news except at dinner time.

The only exception was some bank holidays, where the service was put on air for two five minute bulletins (dinner time and late news).

It would certainly help if the BBC muxes were DVB-S2 SD then all the 18 regions could be put on one mux. HD could be put on four muxes or even three.

For BBC2, if they can fit over 20 channels on a mux, all BBC2s could be on the same mux as BBC1s, and for HD, one other mux.

The BBC are currently using six muxes - four in SD and two in HD. They could convert one of the other four muxes to HD and DVB-S2, convert one to DVB-S2 SD and then everyone is happy.

We'll have to wait and see what happens. In India, they have 74 channels on one DVB-S2 SD mux!
Maybe that's because India is a newcomer to the world of digital satellite television?
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Old 27-01-2014, 13:51
Tony Richards
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[quote=jimbo;71063613]I think the Germans do something similar with their regional channel 3s.

/QUOTE]

True: each of the regions has one main HD channel which switches for local news into several different ones. They are I believe on the same MUX and the local variations only operate when needed. Most of the time a common feed is received by all viewers in that state / region. I haven't noticed that the switch is messy and it certainly reduces the bandwidth required compared to the BBC/ITV method of a full time channel for each region and sub region.
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Old 27-01-2014, 18:13
alexj2002
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Does that really justify all the current costs of transmitting national variations of BBC Two plus the added cost of HD variants down the line. Most, if not all, of the above programmes could easily be moved to slots on BBC One. An easy, and justifiable, saving IMO on any rational analysis. The money saved could be better spent elsewhere. As to BBC One HD regions for England they need to consider what options are available for keeping the costs down in that regard.
They considered this a couple of years back. BBC Wales at least have in recent years moved a lot of regional programming (drama, documentary etc.) to BBC One, fitting into slots where the network's programming can be dropped/rescheduled without any major issues.

The main thing that's left (which didn't happen to be on the week you compiled the list) is live sport. In particular, both BBC Wales and NI usually show a live rugby match from 7pm until around 9pm on a Friday evening on BBC Two. To move that to BBC One would displace The One Show and Eastenders, which would lead to complaints from viewers not interested in sport (particularly I suspect in the case of Eastenders).
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Old 27-01-2014, 19:31
mici01
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[quote=Tony Richards;71065270]
I think the Germans do something similar with their regional channel 3s.

/QUOTE]

True: each of the regions has one main HD channel which switches for local news into several different ones. They are I believe on the same MUX and the local variations only operate when needed. Most of the time a common feed is received by all viewers in that state / region. I haven't noticed that the switch is messy and it certainly reduces the bandwidth required compared to the BBC/ITV method of a full time channel for each region and sub region.
Yes, indeed. And they even get a bit further!

Just look at the 12422 H mux on Astra1 (Lyngsat will help you) where the WDR (the Programm for the West) is broadcasting it's HD and it's SD programmes on the same mux. So during the regional Programs the not only reduce the bitrate they also switch automatically back to the original SD broadcast (by the way they also do this for the SD channels). So during non-regional programs there only 2 channels on the mux (the main feed for all SD and HD Channels). But during the regional program there is 1 HD-Channel (wich broadcasts the Cologne version)and 6 SD-Channels. (thats done with the old DVB-S, so you could place even more Regions when you use DVB-S2/MPEG4 with SD resolution during Regional Programms)
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Old 27-01-2014, 19:46
lotrjw
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[quote=mici01;71071384]

Yes, indeed. And they even get a bit further!

Just look at the 12422 H mux on Astra1 (Lyngsat will help you) where the WDR (the Programm for the West) is broadcasting it's HD and it's SD programmes on the same mux. So during the regional Programs the not only reduce the bitrate they also switch automatically back to the original SD broadcast (by the way they also do this for the SD channels). So during non-regional programs there only 2 channels on the mux (the main feed for all SD and HD Channels). But during the regional program there is 1 HD-Channel (wich broadcasts the Cologne version)and 6 SD-Channels. (thats done with the old DVB-S, so you could place even more Regions when you use DVB-S2/MPEG4 with SD resolution during Regional Programms)
The regional bit being done as SD well could it not be SD upscaled to HD and then using a lower bitrate thats not much more than a reasonable SD bitrate?
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Old 28-01-2014, 15:27
mici01
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The regional bit being done as SD well could it not be SD upscaled to HD and then using a lower bitrate thats not much more than a reasonable SD bitrate?
I think SD with SD bitrate looks better than HD with SD bitrate, because at that bitrates picture can get very pixaly and do look worse than real SD. I think that's why the WDR got that set up (and also to combine SD and HD broadcasts)
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