Oh I forgot to mention the constant AD BREAKS. Sometimes it was two minutes of skating and 15 of adverts, well it seemed like that to me!!!!! LOL. I taped it but after a few years the contestants were z listers trying to revive dying careers and I no longer cared if they skated well or not!!!

Problem with Defrosted was it was shown (stupidly imo) at a time when most fans of the show would have been at school or work. Not everyone has Sky+ now, and certainly not when the show first started.

Bear in mind that when competitive dance or pairs couples perform, even for galas, they don't really "show out" too much to the audience, though they do emote. They also "tell a story" through their movement to the music. Not the showbiz faces presented by the likes of Hayley or Bonnie, though.

I appreciate that people new to it can't really be expected to do this to the standards of competitors, but for me there is too much emphasis on lifts and not enough on the way in which the skating in between is done and presented. I agree with those who say think about the amount of time these lifts take to learn and perfect, spend that time on steps, movement over the ice, low lifts and assisted jumps a la traditional ice dance, and at least trying to convey the sentiment of the music.

I may be out of step with some on here but I liked Gareth and Brianne's routine last night because it had more of that sort of character about it, I voted for them and was glad they stayed.

I don't habitually watch DOI so can't add to the debate. But wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted on a fascinating and informative thread. I read every word with great interest.

I think there are two version of "the lifts are necessary": "it's necessary to have some lifts" and "it's necessary to have as many lifts as they've been having". I agree with the 1st but not the 2nd.

There's also a question of whether DOI has been making the best choice of which lifts to use. I think they haven't.

I agree with you about the required elements. Indeed, I think it would have been better if there were some skating requirements at the start, and if celebs were not allowed to do lifts until they were able to complete those elements. And then there should be restrictions on how much of a routine can be lifts. I think the result would be more balanced routines that were better and more interesting when taken as a whole.

I also agree that it can be difficult to get a novice skater to a competent level. But plenty of celebs have reached a level that's good enough to let them do some reasonably interesting routines.

And they start training in October. Here, for example, is something Hayley Tamaddon said in an interview after she'd won:


So they start training in the month before they get their partner, and then have a couple of months with their partner, training a few hours every day. Sure, it's probably not literally every day, at least not for all of them. But it's still going to be over two months of pretty regular training.

Something is wrong somewhere when some of them can barely manage to skate on their own after all that time. Perhaps it was a mistake to have picked some of the celebs at all; but I also think they may spend too much of the time on lifts.

FWIW my missus took skating lessons (group classes and later a few individual lessons in both individual skating and very basic ice dance routines) in her early thirties, not having ever set foot on ice before and even by just doing the taught stuff once or twice a week and joining in a general skating session one other night a week she became good enough to pass some basic level tests within a few months. I'm more of an armchair fan though I did manage to thump round the rink on general skating nights from time to time and got to the stage where I managed it for the most part without falling over, skating forwards and backwards and doing proper stops. Admittedly some folk never quite master it as it's as much about balance and how you carry yourself and to some extent confidence as it is about mastering the blades and edges etc. But the missus didn't spend any time trying to be lifted, so all the time was focused on what she did on the ice.

Absolutely wazzyboy - I'm a skater myself, and from my experience it would be perfectly possible to teach the celebs much more ice dance content than they actually have done so far. The first basic dance patterns that you learn - prelim foxtrot, blues, dutch waltz, canasta tango - all mostly rely on runs & using your edges and it's all skated in killian hold so not so hard to master. I was watching on Sunday and it's apparent that lots of the returning celebs have good basic stroking technique, and can carry a decent amount of speed so it wouldn't be a huge step for them to add more dance content, particularly as then they wouldn't have to devote so much time to lifts.

Killian hold is the side by side hold, right? I remember hearing commentators on TV saying you start that way and face to face hold and skating is harder. My missus never got past the side to side stuff really before she had to give up as her balance was affected by illness sadly. Think I can vaguely recall seeing face to face hold skating happen once or twice on DOI and being impressed but find myself unable to call specific examples to mind.

ETA: If anyone thinks the big high lifts are needed, T&D don't do them and didn't do them in competition keeping to the nothing above shoulder height rule that applied to ice dance (well possibly they broke the spirit of that rule a little bit once or twice but certainly no high lifts like in pair skating).

Yes that's right. Both partners do that same thing at the same time in killian, but if you're face to face often they do different steps to each other, and I don't expect the celebs could get to that level! I guess the other problem is that not all the pros have an ice dance background - a lot of them seem to have more pairs experience which I guess explains the emphasis on big lifts, but then again, you can see here that some pairs skaters are also capable of using ice dance rhythms wonderfully: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4TU_ZDs5HQ

Remember when Nicky Slater marked Suzanne Shaw down for doing a lift-heavy routine with no skating? A week later she was given a routine mostly skating based ("Music") and many consider it the moment she became a potential winner.

The next series? Back to lifts all the time

FWIW I've only ever seen a couple of series thanks to girlfriends at the time; those happening to be the first one and the current one.

From an objective point of view, I'd say part of its problem is that it suffers from ITV's usual 'successful show complacency' that taints a lot of their entertainment output. They hit upon a successful format, then beat it into the ground for as long as they can or someone puts a stop to it.

Visually it looks like it belongs in a different era (and I get that some of the cheesiness is part of the appeal), but the set is very, very dated and lifeless in a way, with the 60's style staircase that has no real purpose other than for the presenters to walk down at the start. Also else everyone sort of being 'just off to the side' of the ice rink looks very uncomfortable... almost as if no one really knew how to make the set 'work' properly. The natural comparison is the Strictly come Dancing set, which feels full of life with the audience close to the action, the live band in the background etc

I say this not as a big criticism of the show but as someone who's only really seen bits of the first and last series, but it just doesn't feel like it's evolved that much in the time between then and now.

get the pros more involved - allow them a hand in the choreography, let them do pro dances, its sad that once they are out we dont see them anymore

also stop changing the pros every series - we just get to know them and poof, they arent asked back - what is that all about? - I think that is why Strictly works so well, the viewers actually feel like they know the professional dancers because most of them are there for more than 1 series

have a ice panel that actually have a background in ice dancing/skating - no more Louis;, Ashleys, Emmas, Jasons.......

add SOMETHING every week that the celebs have to learn, ditch the handbanger, its boring!

I would LOVE to see a live band on DOI but I know its never going to happen - last series an' all

and less adverts please!

There is a more 'distant' detached feel about DOI, compared to SCD, you are right. I find the show quite humourless compared to SCD too. Mind you they did try to equivalent of the Tess Pit when they hoiked Karen off the panel and left her with the skaters but that just bombed really and was quite excruciating to watch

I think even if they just copied SCD by putting all the competitors at the top of the stairs when they're not performing it would make that element of the set feel a little more useful, or even put the judges up there so they have a better view of the action?

I know it's irrelevant as the show is finishing, but from my limited viewings I just get the feeling ITV have never quite worked out how to properly present it. They've gone a certain amount of the way in copying SCD, but didn't want to be 'too' similar. As you say it's quite dour and humourless, maybe a different presenter other than ITV golden boy 'Schofe' would've done more with it.

Imho, the only marked difference in the routines on DOI week to week is the music. For some of the celebs the speed of their skating doesn't vary whether they're skating to a ballad or a dance tune, it's only really the costumes that identify the theme. On SCD you have the celebs that are good/bad at ballroom, the ones that are good/bad at latin and the odd few that are complete rubbish at both. There have been celebs who have been great at latin but crap at ballroom and vice versa, so their fans have to get voting quite early on in the series if they get a dance that doesn't suit them. There have also been more celebs that have drastically improved during an SCD series as opposed to DoI. It's just my opinion of course, but the skaters that are really bad in week one don't generally get much better. I just think the novelty's worn off with DoI.

You are right I think. DOI relies on people getting good routines and very few are actually written, and very few people are capable of performing them.

It works more than one way too. SCD not only has different dances, and a wider range of music, it also has successful contestants in more sorts of shapes and sizes. On SCD you can dance badly, on DOI you shouldn't get to do the move at all if you can't do it well enough to be safe. The requirements to be good on DOI are narrower. There's a reason why all 5 top females in this series are under 5-3 (as is Clare who should have been here) There's a reason too why many of the most successful males come from backgrounds where strong leg muscles were needed, and if they are to do any lifting upper body strength is needed too. There's good reason too why 4 females in the allstars and both surviving males, are actors, 3 females at least, and Ray are dance trained, 3 females and both surviving males sing for a living, and one contender is an olympic gymnast. Basically, only two or three people are going to perform well every series, the others have less scope to be funny than on SCD. That leaves acres of filler time in the show, between the few real contenders doing the few really good routines they get written for them.

DOI also seems to have failed to get enough of the right people. It had Clare Buckfield as an alternate when she was in the top 2 of series 2 which hardly suggests competence. It bizarrely reportedly failed to accept people like Tina Barrett and Noel Sullivan who look made for the show, and it failed to tap the people who had shown clear potential on SCD.

There are other problems though. the illthoughtout judging criteria - that managed not to reward difficulty or reflect the overall performance or properly judge any acting, the inability to seperate marking the performer and the choreography, the anti-judge voting provoked by the panto judging......

Their answer - to add twists for excitement and, made up, off ice, VT stories, didn't help either. They either distorted the result , ironically most destructively by destroying the competition in the allstars competition, or, most of the time, fell flat, and produced entirely predictable, pointless, results.

They basically forgot that what you want is people who we get to know a bit, doing difficult things that are entertaining - and didn't tackle their biggest problem - lack of good contestants, great routines, and ideas for them.

Absolutely this!!!!

I can remember the whole series just collapsed for me once this happened.

I think it was after Hayleys year which was great but then the show was starting to turn stale. The show just was so similar each year when you get the obvious stand out winner each series like Ray / Sam / Hayley etc. Only Suzannes series was great cause she had actual competition.

Christine Bleakley the ice maiden also ruined the show I think.

2 words: Schofield's ego.

Agree such a smug man cant stand him, but i think the pathetic Judges are to blame where it went wrong(or more like the producers who hired them) i mean Ashley Roberts wtf??? i know ITV have some weird like for her as im sick of seeing and hearing her on my TV, but what does she know about ice skating?? the only one who is credible on the panel is Robin IMO and speaks a lot of sense, though Karen also was a skater so at least she does know what she is on about..

The repertoire of moves and skating on DOI is much more limited by the nature of the contest and safety concerns which can make it sameish. Sometimes it feels like the same routines are dragged out each week with just different music and costumes. On SCD the very obvious distinction between Latin and ballroom and even between the individual dances keeps interest and variety. I think having a required element each week helped add interest and focus to the routines but that has been lost for meaningless twists, I agree with above too on SCD some dancers were great at one genre and rubbish at the other but on DOI you can either skate or you can't skate.

I always wondered about the scoring on DOI, seemed a bit muddy to me with the judges having some sort of bias towards technique or performance but not clear how much was influencing their proportion of marks. Maybe it would have been better for Karen and Robin to score just on technique with Jason and Ashley score on performance alone rather than the hybrid we have now. Or maybe each judge should allocate 5 marks towards technique and 5 towards performance and not have a bias.

Ashley's judging criteria seem to be based upon how well they shake their booty or how much 'fun' they are having

Its always been like SCD-lite. And watching the REAL stuff at the brilliant Sochi Olympics makes you see the pathetic limitations of BOTH the 'celebrities', the pro dancers and certainly the ridiculous '10 for Quinn to win 'Judges.

iSN'T SHE A TRAINED DANCER? OK nothing to do with ice skating. There again, not much of this show is!!!

Agree entirely with all that has been written above. Just like to add that having Karen as both a coach and a judge is ridiculous! She should be one or the other not both!
As others have pointed out, the ever changing judging panel has played a major part in the downfall of DOI.

Having the last series as an AllStars mainly made up of previous winners just hasn't worked for me. Most of the celebs (if we discount the comic element aka Tood Carty and Joe Pasquale who in any case were eliminated pretty swiftly) were already at a certain level of skating and for me part of the enjoyment is seeing how they progress and improve week in week out from Bambi on ice to skaters/performers. For me because they're mainly made up of previous show winners they've all pretty much been on the same level of skating and performing for weeks now and it just hasn't drawn me in. I've lost interest in who's going to win - I don't really care.

I would have much preferred if they'd had totally new contestants and brought in past winners/contestants to do some of their favourite dances for entertainment only throughout the series.