I'm suggesting if you use a crate to toilet train your dog, you're lazy. If you're using it for their safety, please read back over my posts and you'll see I agreed with that.
And for the record, bazaar1 has set the bar on this much earlier in another thread by accusing me of being blind or lying about the health and happiness of my cats. I find that rude and offensive. But hey, what can you do about it eh?

It's best not to take disagreements from one thread to another, it disrupts discussions for everyone else. If you have a problem best to take it to the mods or pm the member.

As for crates for toilet training I am not sure how that even works, you have to take a dog out to toilet train it even if you are using a crate. Betty earned very quickly where to go and where not to go the crate is her bed and where she takes her most prized treats not her toilet.

I don't have a problem per se with anyone. But if I'm going to be accused of being needlessly rude, I shall give the back story so you have the whole picture. If you don't think that's appropriate then maybe you shouldn't have commented on it all, or followed your own advise and pmd me or reported me to the mods.

Anyway, to end.

OP, if you go the crate route, make sure you use it as an aid, but not a substitute for proper interactive training with your dog. Particularly with the breed you're getting, as I'm sure you know they're highly intelligent active working dogs that need an awful lot of time and energy to make them happy and the crate can't do that for you. Good luck and enjoy your puppy.

Well sounds like you do have a problem if you need to be rude to anyone.

1. A dog in the wild would make itself a nice cosy den where it would go to when it wants peace and quiet. A crate acts as a substitute for that, its a 'safe spot' for the dog, somewhere it knows it won't be disturbed. So yes, properly used a crate is a secure place to retreat to. And yes, dogs and puppies should be alone sometimes, otherwise you end up with a neurotic, nervous, anxious, unconfident and unhappy animal that can't cope unless its owner is near it.

2. It's not lazy, just practical. What exactly is the difference between closing a puppy in the kitchen to closing it in a crate during housetraining? It's still closed in one space, but not only is it much easier and convenient to have a wire crate that puts up and folds away in seconds, compared to fencing off bits of the kitchen and making sure nothing is left lying around or the door is not left open, it does speed up housetraining. A dog won't want to toilet near its bed, give it a whole room and there's far more space for it to use. Put it in a crate though and its much more likely to quickly learn to wait, because it doesn't want a wet uncomfortable bed.

People aren't lazy for using crates, just sensible and don't want wet patches (or worse!) on the floor longer than necessary, or to be moving around a room that has rigged up walls to keep a pup in, when a crate is so much more efficient and convenient.

You closed your puppy in the kitchen to "house train" it?

I've grown up with dogs and we never had to "shut them" anywhere to get them house trained. Maybe because we were around to watch them to notice the signals they gave when they needed to go and acted accordingly so they knew where to go and when. Also trained them to tell us when they needed to go outside, all without crates or shutting them away in one room.

A dog is a pack animal, shutting them in one room away from the rest of their pack (i.e. the rest of the family with the main carer as the pack leader) isn't a nice thing to do IMO.

And doing that is lazy IMO because it is for the owners convenience rather than the animals.

If a dog has access to rooms in the house or the garden they will "find" their own quiet space if they need them without needing to use a crate.

If you use a crate to keep them locked away at night or to put them in when friends come round (yes... this happens) or limit a dog to only a couple of rooms in your home then you shouldn't be owning a dog IMO.

(I know I will get flamed for this but hey! Tis the internet)

Dogs in the wild also hunt for their own food and fight for pack dominance. That doesn't happen nowadays though does it? Not in any domestic situation I know of anyway. The dogs that I know and love all seem pretty secure asleep on various sofas, beds and anything else made for human comfort....

Of course they should be alone - as crazy as most of my dog owning associates are, they don't take them to waitrose when doing the weekly shop... But neither are they locked in cages/crates.


If you have to leave a dog/puppy alone for any amount of time, you take it out to the garden/for a walk to do its business before you leave it, then you should be able to leave it lie wherever it wants - not trapped in a cage unwilling to pee on its own bed because you couldn't find five minutes for that extra bit of training. Again, people using a crate rather than putting the effort in themselve.

Maybe bazaar1 was indeed right and my mother is bloody perfect. No wet patches, no ruined carpet, no scratched walls and she still has house trained dogs without a cage. It's a miracle...



No, it isn't. It's devoted hard work and effort put into pets she chose to have and posesses the time and commitment for. Ta Dah!!!!

*Virtual High Five* Badcat

I can walk mine before I leave them and they still need to go before I get back, Betty manages about an hour and Mollie less as she is elderly, but for e it's not just house training it's for that was a by product of making sure they are safe. I don't know how perfect I am as a dog owner I always feel I could do better and perhaps if I didn't work at all I could try but unless I have no dogs I can't afford to give up work. So I will just do the best I can and console myself my vet tells me my dogs are happiest friendliest he sees.

If your dogs are elderly thats a different kettle of fish. I'm talking about house training.

I'm sure your vet tells you that - and I'm certainly not going to ignorantly accuse you of keeping your dogs in anything but the best of health as some others might because they have a few letters after their name but I'm sure he tells all his paying customers the same thing.

No I didn't close my first pup in the kitchen away from everyone, but until he was reliable at asking to go out, I did confine him to the kitchen, as it's the only room with an easily wipeable floor. But no I didn't close the door on him, I put a board up that was too high for him to climb over but that he could still see and hear the comings and goings of daily life past it. My second pup, was crate trained, and it is so much easier and safer both for owner and dog and I now have two dogs that will happily lie in a crate if needs be. Why would you allow a puppy to wander all over the house if it wasn't housetrained? Would you let a baby crawl around without a nappy on? If anything, its easier to confine a pup to one room to housetrain them, as its less confusion.



Ok, seeing as you seem to think people who crate to housetrain are lazy, let me give you a scenario:

Say you have a puppy in your living room that your housetraining. You've been watching it like a hawk all morning, it's been going well, but suddenly the phone rings or a delivery man knocks on the door. You've got nowhere to put the puppy, so decide as you'll only be a couple of minutes it'll be fine to leave him. You go back into the room after and there's a big wet patch on the carpet.

A) You've now got a mark on your floor and cleaning up to do that could have easily been avoided had the pup been in a crate on a puppy pad, and B) you've just caused a backwards step in housetraining that you didn't need to. Because you can't correct the pup, as it won't associate why it's being told off, so it won't know not to do it again or that it's not supposed to do it in the first place. Had it been in a crate however, chances are it wouldn't have wanted to go near its bed, and would have waited those couple of minutes. Which would have got it heaps of praise for being good and waiting, then heaps more when it was taken outside, so you would have actually progressed and gone forwards with the training.

Its nothing to do with being lazy, there is actual good reason and benefit to using a crate. If you don't like them or want to use one fair enough, but it's not fair to say people who do use them are too lazy to train their dogs properly. A crate aids housetraining, it doesn't magically do it for you, you still have to put the effort and time in, it just makes it that bit easier. And there's no harm in that.

Looking at the size of my neighbour's dogs it might be something of a feat to lug a huge crate into the vets

I understand what you are saying but the people I know who use(d) crates tended to be slower at house training their dogs. I think that's because it is human nature to rely on the crate just a little too much. I'm of the non crate persuasion myself. I would watch puppies like a hawk and they learnt very quickly that toilet = outside. Accidents were surprisingly minimal because if you are focused and observant most dogs learn quickly. That said, I would never have a young puppy if I wasn't at home anyway. Plus - present company excepted - crates are often too easy a substitute for proper training. Ie don't shove them in a crate if they are a bit over excited with visitors - teach them how to behave!
You can also give the dog their own 'special place' without a crate.

this. 100%

We don't wait until the dogs about to pee before putting her out in the garden - we put her out after her breakfast, after she's woken up from a snooze etc etc etc, make all the wee wee sounds and words, and if she goes, loads of praise and treat if she does her business, nothing if she doesn't. I would never tell a puppy off for peeing in the house - it's not their fault, it'd be mine for not watching them. So no, a crate still isn't an option for me, nor is it a required. Just hawk eyes and a bit of proactive encouragement.

No, because a baby that is still crawling is too young to be potty trained - potty training a toddler to go dry? Yes, absolutey. How else are you supposed to do it. Not a good comparison..

I've had six dogs in my life and have only used a crate for the latest, my 3 year old cavalier, as they were not a common commodity before. My husband and I only chose to have one this time round though as we thought it would prove to be an ideal equivalent of a playpen for a baby - somewhere safe to pop her for a matter of minutes in the case of someone knocking at the door etc. We've never used it in any capacity as a toilet training aid just because we decided we preferred our usual hawk eye/newspaper on the floor method.

I do however know a very knowledgeable doggy lady who has recently toilet trained two Labrador puppies and swears by a giant crate as a toilet training aid'.

All I can say to the OP is that as a place of safety for puppies they are IMO invaluable. However beware your pooch becoming too attached to them. Our little lady's all grown up now and no longer needs a 'playpen', but despite having several cosy beds the second my hubby or I head for the kitchen (where her crate is) she's in it snuggled up like a shot. And basically now we can't bring ourselves to part with it.

*sigh*

dogs are not pack animals, they do not (as per organs bird) fight for dominance in thier pack. That's wolves, not dogs. Feral dogs aggregate in social groupings for a resource, there is no dominance there, no pack leader and the bonds a flexible and there is little loyalty to one a other,expect mother to pup before weaning.

But please can we not turn this into a pack there debate, that's irrelevant for the op, who only asked about crates!

As for collies suggestion about shutting the dog in one room, that was the advice for many years, and is still given by many behaviourists, the less too a dog has to roam initially, the less room there is for accidents, it'd the same thinking behind not leaving the back door open when training - that door create an in and out idea for them.

As for orange birds perfect mother and perfect puppies, i call as much bullshit to that a so do to her comments on the other thread (which btw you really shouldn't bring into this thread- I hadn't even realised you were the same poster until you did, so no, there's no personal vendetta, perhaps I just see through your utter codswallop of a post). No puppy is perfect and anyone claiming that they don't have accidents is either naive or talking rubbish.

wow, not only do you know everything about cats and dogs, you also have xray far seeing vision all the way to saudi. you are super clever. how you manage to be so brainy, what with reviewing books and putting daft clothing on your dogs and all, is marvellous..

Eh? Either you have gone super stalker (which is really rather creepy) or..actually no I can think of an or? How very odd.....I'm rather glad you are 'apparently' in Saudi. And thanks for noticing, I AM super brainy.

On a serious note bazaar1, it would seem that if your superior opinion isn't agreed with, it's codswallop/bullshit etc - your words, not mine. And there's no wiggle room for actual experience? Because your studies/research say that sharing a litter tray can be bad and promotes ill health and poor behaviour, that's fact? And it's not possible that my cats could genuinely be healthy and happy despite the shame of 5 of them using 2 litter trays? Or do you think I've lied about the care and health status of all the cats in my care?

A great big fat yes from me and my dogs regarding crate training.

The trouble with any research is that it frequently gets completely contradicted a few years later when a new research study comes up with completely different findings. Working in the NHS, where all our care is''evidence based'', we change a lot of our our guidelines and practice every few years after the latest research revelations. The amount of money spent on medical research is phenomenal but, despite it being carried out robustly and according to strict protocols, there are just so many confounding variables that can affect the results, particularly when it comes to studying actual living people with all their complexities and co-morbid conditions. Subsequent research rarely reproduces the same results and, having assisted in a lot of research I must admit to being rather cynical about some of the findings. Studying animal ''behaviour'' must be also quite hazy because not all animals, even of the same species, behave the same in all situations, even if a ''statistically'' significant majority do.

Sometimes, personal experience and anecdotal evidence is the best guide on how to manage your own pets and I believe that whatever practice is chosen should also fit with the owner's personal lifestyle and standards. For example, I will happily read up on cat advice books but I ignore or disregard advice that doesn't or hasn't suited me (eg my cats preferred sharing a litter tray and just larked around in the others). I just think that people should decide for themselves, having researched the subject, what is best - because it is important for both owner and pet to live in a reciprocal and harmonious relationship. Dictatorial attitudes are very off putting (on both sides of an argument!).

That's so true but I find it hard to understand how someone who has not used a crate can be so sure people who do are lazy, it's harder IMO to crate train and toilet train at the same time than just being home 24/7 and watching them but in todays society few of us have the luxury of being home 24/7 and being able to afford to keep dogs.

I didn't crate train my first 4 it was only when we got our first Chihuahua we got a crate and that was for her safety, now we wouldn't dream of not using them as the dogs love them so much. Mollie is terrified of fireworks and just chucking a blanket over her crate settles her down straight away she knows she is safe in there. Hers is never closed these days and they both sleep with us so they are not used over night so it's not like we rely on them all the time.

Thanks but I think I will stick to the vast majority of vets and dog trainers and get a cage...thanks for your opinion though.