after the events of time of the doctor, the future was changed so he never died on trenzalore, which as far as i can see means no grave, no exposed time stream, and therefore no clara ever being the impossible girl, so my question is how exactly did they get together, i mean i know they may still have the memories as they originally were, time travellers at the eye of the storm and all that but what im saying is if someone actually went back in time now in this changed ne timeline, what would they see?

seriously, no one has an opinion?

The woman in the shop.

The Doctor is off on whatever adventure he's on, and then Clara calls the TARDIS to ask about the Internet.

...Unless the Time Lords were able to fix things up a bit so that NotD still happens.

yes clara would still call him, but what really made hi go to her was that he recognised her voice as that of previous clara's, and if he still went to her anyway out of intrigue, and he decided to take her along with him, the rest of their relatioship with him wondering about the multiple clara's and acting strange as a result would still be different

He still may choose to be buried there in the future after all he did spend 600 years there probably the longest he has spent anywhere so the events may still happen.

it's possible but the way the doctor said to clara, you know how this pans out we've seen the future and I die here and how she then in turn ask's the timelords t change that future strongly suggests the grave was the result of the events in that ep ending with his daeth

meant to say ending with his death and the grave being created as a result of that episode

At that time he was not aware that he would get granted new set of regenerations so he may have just assumed that.

Here's my theory of Clara (note this is highly speculative but it also serves to explain why the Doctor only ever met the impossible girl during Asylum and Snowmen and not at any other times that he remembers).

I believe that in the original timeline, Clara was always a companion of the Doctor. I think he met her before or during the GI's attempt to manipulate the internet, as per Bells of St. John. She gained the ability to hack in pretty much the same way that we saw it but she was already a companion of the Doctor (no girl in the shop giving her his phone number).

She was probably the companion who was with him on Trenzalore when the Doctor died originally and she was with him when the GI tried to change events by luring the Doctor and his friends to Trenzalore and jumped into the timestream.

Compared to what we saw in Name of the Doctor, the GI's efforts were fairly limited. He just went after the 11th Doctor, manipulating the Daleks to bring the Doctor to the Asylum where he would die at their hands, manipulating the events of Snowmen to foil the Doctor's original attempt to defeat his former self and manipulating the events of Bells of St John so that his former self targetted Clara with the internet trap before she ever met him.

However, Clara's fragments went to Asylum and, by getting turned into a Dalek, was able to save him. She also went to Victorian England and helped him defeat the GI despite the GI fragment's best efforts and she was the woman in the shop (in disguise) giving her other self the Doctor's phone number so that the Doctor would be with her when the GI's robot attacked.

The second time around, the GI jumped into the timestream and attacked even more of it than before. Assaulting all of his former selves and companions. Clara, therefore, went back further too and we saw the events of Name.

This time Clara was more familiar with the Time Lords and even more attached to the Doctor and, when they got to Trenzalore she persuaded the Time Lords to save the Doctor. This time round the Doctor didn't die on Trenzalore so the GI never made any attempt to try to change the timeline and the loop ends.

well thought out theory, but a bit complex, kind of get what you mean but that still sort of means two timelines existing at once

Yes, it's based on the changing loop idea that was used for Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS. The first time round the loop, the Doctor throws the big red button thingy to his earlier self but it's fumbled and he goes round the loop again. The second time round, he gets it right and the loop never even happens (even though he, and eventually Clara remember it).

I originally came up with the idea after Name because I wasn't satisfied that it explained how the Doctor saw Clara in Asylum and Snowmen even though she hadn't jumped in the timeline yet and he didn't remember meeting her at any other times. The thing is, if it was a predestination paradox and she had always jumped into the timeline then all that stuff in Name about stars winking out and Strax going bad etc. doesn't make sense because the GI jumping in wouldn't change the universe at all if the Universe was already the result of both he and Clara jumping in.

By making it so that she had jumped into the timeline on a previous occasion and that the events of 7B were a second time round, it enabled all the apparent inconsistencies to be explained

forgot about that in journey, but to be honest that bugs me as well.I don't see how something can happen once with a set of people and then happen a different way with only the same set of people involved. there is no reason why it would change, if someone else was suddenly involved fair enough but otherwise those types of storyline aeem a bit nonsensical. the resolution to the girl who waited is aso an example of this. Amy decides second time round that she can change the future out of love for rory but the older version would have also loved rory and if could have done it that way would have done so originally. there's no sense in her being able to change it but she does anyway. might sound like a slight rant but these types of goes one way then goes another without any rational explanation storyline do tend to bug me

So could it be that The Doctor and Clara were always destined to bump into each other wherever they went?

As Victorian Clara, Clara popped out of her Uncle's pub and saw The Doctor walking past.

As Oswin, The Doctor heard her music because The Daleks wanted his help.

And then we find that she was calling him but he didn't hear but was that only because his back was turned and he wasn't aware, he wasn't facing the right way. Turn round Doctor

My head hurts

Put a wet flannel on your head, it might help a little.

Essentially I don't think events have changed. Somehow either the Doctor still ends up buried on Trenzalore or we're supposed to believe that his 'death' left the timestream 'grave' there for the original Doctor even though he's got new set of regenerations.

If Name of the Doctor doesn't play out, he doesn't meet Clara and everything else falls apart.

I agree that if name dosent play out everything else falls apart, that's kind of the reason I started this thread, to say that it seems name dosen't now play out that the whole thing has fallen apart in my opinion and was wanting to see if anyone could come up with anything convincing and a simple explanation that makes everything make sense

I like the idea of Clara as the Doctor's original last companion; it fits with how she was tied to all of him through-out("I've seen all your faces"), with her last main stories set on Trenzalore in TNOTD and the last in TTOTD where he died. That was how it was supposed to be for him I think, dying of old age, a fitting end cycling back to the first regeneration.

I think in relation to the original post, I think the question should be more "How did the Doctor meet Clara?" which was because he needed her. Capaldi now has her as the first of a new regeneration cycle, to maybe remind him who he is, now more than ever.

Saying that, I'm not a great fan, and would like to see her with a male companion who's a bit rogue in S8, someone that she doesn't full on hate but unravels what he's upto while the Doctor takes lead in main stories (kinda like the early Turlough-Tegan dynamic in the Black Guardian trilogy).

I can't remember journey exactly but there was definitely a reason for the change. The first time the events happened the Doctor wasn't close enough or precise enough when he threw the device and it got fumbled so it didn't save them and they re-experienced the same events. However, this time they had seen the device and the big red button imprint left on Clara's palm. So by the time they got to the point where the Doctor had originally thrown the device he knew that it hadn't worked the first time and resolved to do it differently. This difference is what allowed the Doctor in the past to press the button in time preventing the whole loop from ever happening.

Of course, if the loop hadn't happened where would they have got the device to stop it happening? It's the same sort of paradox we're talking about in TotD. The events of Name could only happen if the Doctor died at Trenzalore but, because of the events of Name, Clara went on to prevent his death at Trenzalore thus preventing the events of Name from ever being possible. However, just as in Journey, they can still carry on as though it never happened even while remembering that it did.

I'm not sure why this doesn't have Blinovitch Limitation Effect written all over it but, given that the concept has precedent from Journey (perhaps deliberately?) I think it's reasonable to attribute the same concept to the larger arc.

I did this, but now there is a man on the video screen in front of me who looks like me and says he is called Hauser.....


Going back to the thread, I know Ali the pieces haven't aligned yet, but I like Thrombins analogy of Clara/notd/totd and what happened in Journey to the centre of the Tardis. A time loop, I like it. I saw a similar-ish concept today in Hartnells Space Museum story today.

Maybe this answer from Moffat will offer some insight:

Question from viewer:

In the time of the doctor the Doctor prevents his death in Trenzalore. But in the Name of the Doctor, Clara enters his Timestream in his tomb in Trenzalore. Surely if the Doctor prevented his own death, how would his tomb be there? And if he didn’t die, Clara would never have entered his time stream, and they would never have met in Asylum of Daleks, The Snowmen. So does that mean that much of the last series never happened?



Moffat:

Changing time is tricky. It’s a bit like a detective story; so as long as there isn’t an actual body, you have got a certain wiggle room – for instance, if the body has, rather conveniently, been burned in a boat in Utah.
Here is the thing: I can change the future so long, as the future hasn’t been already established as part of my own past. I can’t rescue Amy and Rory because I already know I didn’t.
But what do I know about Trenzalore. There is a big monument that looks very like my TARDIS. There’s a temporal fissure leading to my timeline. Maybe it’s my grave. Maybe, one day, that’s still where I get buried. Maybe, it’s something else entirely, and we all got it wrong. Don’t know. Don’t plan to find out for as long as possible.
The main thing is, Clara still jumped into my timestream, and still ended up helping me all through my life. All that is established, unchanged – but there’s wiggle room.

Where is this quote from?
If this is Moffat's answer then it sounds like he's basically saying he probably just get's buried there anyway when he eventually dies, which I suppose just about works, but feels like a bit of a cheat answer he came up with after people started pointing the apparent inconsistency, considering in the episodes themselves they made a point of the crack in the window and there's also the fact that it was the same console room in the grave TARDIS, and the fact that their were no future incarnations in the timestream which all suggested in the episode that he had died as 11.

I think it's much more likely Moffat didn't realise the inconsistency between the two episodes at the time, and is now just using the 'oh he get's buried there anyway' line as an easy explanation. wouldn't suprise me if he got that answer from the internet or a forum like this one.

how do we know he doesn't die on Trenzalore ?



.

Either he's buried on Trenzalore later or the Time Lords were able to keep the paradox in place.

Obviously if history had changed and Clara never met the Doctor, then she wouldn't have been able to tell the Time Lords to give the Doctor a new cycle, so therefore the whole thing would revert back to the original timeline- so therefore I think a paradox machine must come in somewhere to stop this clash of timelines. Perhaps the TARDIS could sustain it?

It's from the current issue of Dr Who magazine.