I'm not confused by the arcs, I just don't like them. Is that okay? Doesn't mean I'm stupid.

In drama in general, I don't actually mind an arc if it's well presented, written and concluded - but the ones we've been given in Dr Who lately have been none of those things. Hence I don't like them.

It can be hard to keep up sometimes. It took 3 years to find out who blew up the tardis in BB. If Tasha could fly it whhy didn't she know River could too and she was actually in there ?. They nearly killed their "weapon" if 11 hadn't pulled her out of the safety thing keeping her stuck in a loop. Keep the new stories simple begining ,middle end. Dr Who is saturday night entertainment. We don't want to think too much we just want to enjoy it.Good drama,action with an occasional bit of comedy to lighten it. That's all we want from S8.

Series 6 was my favourite to be honest..largely because of the slightly more complex arc.

If you look at most US genre shows they have far bigger arcs than Doctor Who. Still maybe it's down to the type of arc.

Wizards vs Aliens had quite a strong arc this series but it tends to be in relation to the interactions of the of the good guys and the bad guys.

The TARDIS actually harms potential arcs in some ways as it's very self contained so it doesn't lend itself to a "constant threat" type arc that most other genre shows have.

With something like Merlin/Buffy you have a constant base in a constant location allowing for constant interaction with your known enemies..in Star Trek you have a ship that interacts with other ships and gets into conflict on a regular basis with a regular enemy based largely in the same time period (allowing for more recurring enemies).

By having a base that can travel anywhere in space and time it cuts off many avenues from strong story arcs due to not settling in any location or even any single time period.

The only way to really get a strong non-complex arc is to have a situation where the Doctor is chasing/trying to find something..or running trying from/trying to escape something..or having something break on the TARDIS so it's stuck in one time period or one location.

I think Who needs to work on more recurring villains who are following a similar timeline to the Doctor so those villains can evolve rather than "just being one random set of Daleks, another set of Daleks and another set of Daleks). You need more Master/Madame Kovarian type threats.

The thing is, I don't think he can win either way. That's pretty much what they did with series 7. All standalone stories that could be watched in any order and if you missed an ep, it didn't mean you couldn't understand the following one. The arc was kept to a very minimum, being little more than "who is Clara?"

What happened? You got loads of people complaining that it was too simple and there was no big story to follow! Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't - because there will always be some people who won't like it.

RTD used to get slaughtered to the conclusions to his arcs back in the day, too!

Totally agree


Totally agree


Totally agree


Totally agree- that Noah must have used a sonic device that worked on wood?


As with Callous above- series 6 has been my favourite, exactly because of the over-arching story going on. There might have been some episodes that individually I didn't like as much as the episodes of s7 ( lots of good individuals in there I think), but s7 had a minimal arc going on, so s6 is my favourite.

If you don't like the story of the arc, fair enough, it is not the same as not getting it. And it doesn't mean there should be no arcs. To me- having a decent arc plot means you get an EXTRA story from the series- not just the 12/13 stories from each episode (or however many episodes is in that series). So whether you liked it or not- surely it is better to have it there, than to not have it there?

And I am seeing people again moaning about plots not being resolved. All Moffat has done since he got the job, is resolve all the un-resolved plots that have been left hanging from RTD, and also from decades ago. Give the guy a break if he wants to , heaven forbid, tell a story that makes people think beyond the duration of the time it is on air. To me that is a sign of good writing- when I start thinking about what happened etc, and trying to work things out before the next episode comes on next week. Not just that, but thinking about what might happen at the end of the series, or even in the next one.

I think Moffat wanted to tell a story that ran throughout 11s time. He was doing a great job I think, then budget cuts/fans moaning meant he had to de-rail that a bit with s7, picking it up again towards the end of s7 and the whole 'of the doctor' trilogy. s7 had probably the best run of individual episodes, with lots of high marks from me. I just really wish there was a bit more going on in the background too. And I think that just a few nitwits are to blame for that. He's been resolving things left right and centre going back decades, and yet a few people wont give him a series or 2 to tell his own little story. It had to be cut in the middle. It's a damn shame. I still think with the final trilogy it managed to be accomplished VERY well, joining it all back to S6 again. Amazing stuff.

This is hilarious. We are continually being told that the BBC takes no notice of the so called "Moffat haters", that they are only a few whingers on internet forums whose opinions have no influence, and yet here you are claiming that Moffat changed direction because of a few moaning fans! A couple of throwaway lines in "Time" doesn't resolve it back to S6 in a good way - storytelling should be about show not tell. And as for Series 6 itself, the whole story of Amy And Rory being River's parents was so meh and badly done (kidnapped baby anyone), it's a science fiction series, who cares? And it was all premised on a lie - "That's really the Doctor and he really is dead". Oh wait a minute, it wasn't and he isn't. And in what way do the Doctor's actions in "Time" reconcile with him going "into the shadows" which is how S6 ended.

It's depends on the show and how the arc is done, Buffy ones were pretty simplistic and worked well, as somese pointed out the X-file arc was a nightmare. It bored me tearless, was too complicated and eventually I stopped watching the show. The whole crack arc I'd put in that category, by the time we got too Time of the Doctor I couldn't care less who was behind the cracks,

As for shows that have good storyline arcs, I think The X Files Series 1 did. I don't watch sci-fi or fantasy so can't think of those examples, but Sherlock Series 1 had a strong clear arc.

I understand the purpose of series' arcs but if they're too confusing or rely on people religiously watching the programme, people are going to turn off.

Sorry but NO.
I'm as much of a Supernatural fan as DRWho and have never had a problem with Supernatural arcs, it's down to Moffet's writing and arcs that are multi series instead of one.
I don't mind story arcs if they're well written and don't drag over 3 series or more as you tend to forget {I've got memory probs} and lose the plot so to speak.

That was my take on it I just went - OH WELL THEN!
Underwhelming.

Is there a like button?
+1

Who (or rather WHAT) was 'behind the cracks' was explained in S5.

I assume you are thinking about the time lords using the last remnants of a crack to try and send a message through (easily explained by them, as we now know from the events of the anniversary, being in a pocket universe just outside ours. When the whole series 5 pandorica meeting exploding tardis thing happened to resolve the cracks they must have used that to sort of stick their foot in a door.crack or 2 to then start sending that message).


I told myself not to do this anymore, but here goes....

The cracks were the result of the tardis exploding. The silence off-shoot religion (which we now know from Christmas where they came from, and what their agenda was) brought this about, not by planting a bomb on board or whatever as some people seem to think MUST be the case, but by causing the pre-destination paradox of the tardis exploding to cause the cracks - no doctor in the Universe ( removed from it in the Pandorica means the tardis should no longer exist), leading to the tardis exploding.

They wanted to avoid the Trenzalore situation from ever happening by removing the Doctor. They were obviously deluded that this was achievable, and had to try anyway. It's the old what if you kill your grandfather thing- you can't do it- anything that ends up happening is supposed to happen, and only lead to the original events occurring how they were supposed to ( i.e - you were always in the original events). So the Silence actually are part of bringing about the situation (perhaps one reason why the mainframe was able to get a jump start and find the place first?)

So people are complaining about something that just shows their lack of understanding when they say they've only just found out who was behind the cracks. No one was "behind it"- it was an unwanted event that happened because the silence offshoot tried to get rid of the doctor. We were SHOWN (not hurriedly told in a tiny small print of dialogue) that it was the Tardis that caused the cracks. We were also even shown in the Silurian 2 parter the Doctor picking out a peice of the tardis to give us all a clue about it half way through the series.

And ok Gatherer- I am- and I know I am, deliberately adding in about "moaning fans" making moffat alter the path slightly with s7. A lot of shows- even big US ones, have had shorter series lengths and longer breaks in production over the last few years due to tighter budget constraints. And that is the obvious reason behind the need to wait so long for s7 then split it in half (in reality giving us 2 half series' when compared to a 'normal one'.... I still think the BBC should show a bit more love for a show which actually makes them a lot of money. Drop the dead wood like Eastenders and reality shows and concentrate on things like doctor who ( no, please don't throw food at me if you love Eastenders lol- but there are plenty of shows hardly anyone watches and shouldn't really be on TV, or shouldn't have the budget they have) I guess I am just fed up of people whingeing things like " This show is rubbish and everyone needs to be sacked yesterday because I didn't get plot point C" and "I missed the first half because I was on twitter slating the opening credits, so didn't get something- this show is crap. I want to see Capt Jack tap dance on top of a dalek this instant or I shall shoot everyone in my village".
I think it is fair enough if you don't like the episode or series plot. Have a moan about it by all means. I certainly had a moan over the power of 3. I did not however demand everyone involved with it should be sacked this instant.


And- series 6 did not end with him going 'in to the shadows'. This was a s7 plot ( one of probably 2 very minor arcs going on in s7). Who says that what characters set out to do is supposed to always work? He spent that time trying to make a lot of people forget about him because the daleks and cybermen actually grew strong because of him. He thought the universe would be a better place if they didn't know him and did not think they had to beat him. Also because he didn't want any more religious wacko's trying to off him. It worked for a bit, but the whole time lord message kind of put the dampeners on that one. Maybe he will yet succeed with it in the future. I hope that is something that continues into future series'. Other events don't always end how we LIKE them to end. It's the same as with life itself. Otherwise my wife, Catherine Zeta Jones would have just popped out of my very own time machine after having some more rejuvenation treatments on planet Zog, to give me another million quid to buy anything I wanted. wouldn't it be pretty boring if Doctor Who ended exactly the way you wanted it and expected it to every single time. Here are some good writers, trying to surprise us, make us think a bit, and entertain a wide audience range at the same time. It is currently more successful than it has probably ever been, and MILLIONS of people actually enjoy it. Even my wife has been coming around more to it lately. My son absolutely loves it ( a bit worried about what the new doc will be like). They watch it for the individual episode and the entertainment contained in that 45 minutes mostly, and I am entertained throughout the year by it, even when it's not on, thinking about various things and what could happen and what might happen etc.

Oh- and you also think we were all 'lied to' because the doctor really wasn't dead- it turned out to faked?
I really do wonder sometimes. Perhaps stick to the plot of Tellytubbies and 'in the night garden' if you can't handle some decent sci fi plots Gatherer.

I'm sorry snopaelic- I know I hit reply to your post, and I really tried not to get wound in by the Gatherer. I know you were giving your decent, honest opinion, but some other people on this forum just wind me (and a lot of others) up so much with constant sniping at people. It all just came out at once because I've held it in for months now- lol

Plenty of people on this forum give honest opinions about what they like and don't like and have reasons for it based in reality. It is a good thing and even better when we can all discuss in a proper way. Like individual stories being a bit frantic at times- I can see where people are coming from and wish at times this was not the case too. Most of the time it hasn't bothered me- just the odd episode here and there. I too would actually prefer things a lot slower paced at times- a bit more like classic who, spread out a bit and telling a more in depth story, I think we have to blame the Americans for that though Having said that- plenty of Dr Who stories are spot on, and I don't think they are too rushed at all. And looking at lots of other shows these days- everything is rushed and plots squeezed into the ending. It;s a miracle Dr Who manages to avoid doing it as much as it does.

firstly, you must have heard something thousand's of other's who have been asking for years didn't, because the answer to who was behind the crack's was absolutely NOTexplained in series 5(when you say this I assume you just mean we know it was the tardis blowing up, but that was not an answer as we didn't know who caused it, until years later in time of the doctor) and in fact, even the doctor wonders to himself at the end of the big bang.

secondly, if series 6 did not end with him going into the shadows then why, at the end of wedding of river song (THE LAST EPISODE OF SERIES 6) did the doctor say "I got too big dorium, I need to step back into the shadows"?

Wow, you can't even get basic facts right. Try watching the end of "The Wedding of River Song", the last episode of series SIX. Yes, the Doctor being dead was a lie, and the plot was indeed more suited to Teletubbies. Complicated plots doesn't necessarily equal good television. Also try reading some of the other posts - plenty of people agree with my opinions. Perhaps this isn't the place for you if you are so easily wound up by people pointing out that what you class as brilliant television is actually a load of convoluted twaddle. Still I'm happy for you that you are so easily pleased.

The poster you are replying to doesn't let the facts get in the way of his rants.

I like how you quote random sentences out of context, but that aside- I will repeat what I already said to answer your "firstly" - THE TARDIS caused the cracks, Explained fully in series 5, which is what I said. AS to the WHY of that - we find out at the beginning of s6 that it was because someone wanted to get rid of the doctor. The pandorica/cracks incident was the first attempt ( to the doctors point of view), and the trained assassin/shooting by the lake was the 2nd attempt (again- from his point of view). If the message on the tardis screen telling you about the silence, then the opening 2-parter from s6 did not tell you the "who" in all of this, and you needed it beaten in to your head, then this was explained at various points in s6 if you were paying attention, or for the hard of thinking in the episode at Christmas just gone it was explicitly stated.

As to the "secondly" - He said at the very end- like, final words of s6- that's what he planned to go and do. He hadn't done it yet. s7 opened with him, not having done it yet ( obviously) and in quite a few episodes (and minisodes on the internet) this was part of his plan that he was trying to accomplish throughout s7. It worked on some levels, but at he end of s7 it was a plan that had pretty much failed. Whether he'll keep trying remains to be seen. I think it is a good plot to be having in the background, so I hope they keep it.

lol- that is REALLY funny coming from you lol.

I've given plenty of real actual facts Gatherer. What you came back with shows you didn't watch/didn't understand/just made it up for the hell of it.

The wedding of River Song might just be my favourite ever episode you know. Everything all screwed up, yet it was perfectly in place because of what had happened.

Yes, "What" was explained but not "Who" and not "How". Now we have the "Who" but not the "How" but it's still better than just "What"!


Interesting theory but I don't think it holds up. The Doctor was not removed from the Universe where the TARDIS exploded. He was one of the last things left in the Universe. He then rebuilt the Universe without himself but that was a completely new Universe which did not feature an exploding TARDIS at all. In any case, why would the Doctor ceasing to exist cause the TARDIS to explode? Quite apart from the fact that the TARDIS existed before the Doctor stole it and so should continue to exist even if he didn't, the TARDIS ceasing to exist would just mean that the TARDIS ceases to exist. Exploding so violently that the Universe is torn apart is kind of the opposite of ceasing to exist!

As far as I remember, it was explicity stated in Day of the Doctor that Madame Korvarian's faction attempted to destroy the TARDIS in an abortive attempt to prevent the Doctor from reaching Trenzalore.



What it shows is a plot so complex that even the people saying it isn't hard to understand are failing to understand it.

I kinda rest my case

I've never commented on programmes i haven't watched or made anything up so don't know where you're coming from on that. Like I said, don't let the facts get in the way of your posts.

And you somehow forget the ending of your favourite episode ever......

It seems that you don't understand Who as much as you claim. The Doctor was presumed dead at the end of S6 so that was the time for him to go into the shadows. There was no subsequent on going plan to achieve this and it's too late now as everyone knows he's still alive! Try and keep up.

The head honcho woman of the mainfraime said...
"TASHA: Why did you ever come to Trenzalore?
DOCTOR: Well, I did come to Trenzalore, and nothing can change that now. Didn't stop you trying though, did it?
TASHA: Not me. The Kovarian Chapter broke away. They travelled back along your timeline and tried to prevent you ever reaching Trenzalore.
DOCTOR: So that's who blew up my Tardis. I thought I'd left the bath running.
TASHA: They blew up your time capsule, created the very cracks in the universe through which the Time Lords are now calling.
DOCTOR: The destiny trap. You can't change history if you're part of it.
"
-So the doctor's comedy line " so THAT'S who blew it up, I thought I left the bath running" is what's being talked about here then? All Tasha said was the Kovarian chapter tried to prevent him getting there at all. And the conclusion they came to was that it was all pre-destination and had to happen ( as I have already said), the kovarian silence chapter was always meant to be there trying to stop him getting there....and in reality partly causing him to be there. It still doesn't say they specifically snuck on board and put a bomb on the tardis or something. The tardis explosion was as a result of something they did- sure, and they were the indirect cause of it, but not something they directly did TO the tardis, or even planned to do. This is all stuff we already really knew back at the end of s5/beginning of s6. This stuff was just topping on to that for those that raelly were still scratching their heads.




When the doctor first found the crack ....here's the transcript:

"
DOCTOR: There you are. What took you so long?
CLARA: What's wrong? It's only a crack in the wall.
(It is The Crack, the time field caused by the exploding Tardis in the Pandorica Opens / Big Bang stories, that haunted the first season with Amy Pond.)
DOCTOR: I knew. I always knew it wasn't over.
CLARA: What is it?
DOCTOR: A split in the skin of reality.
(As he touches it, he is remembers other times the crack was there.)
DOCTOR: A tiny sliver of the 26th of June, 2010. The day the universe blew up.
CLARA: Missed that.
DOCTOR: I rebooted it, put it all back together.
CLARA: That's good.
DOCTOR: Well, it was my Tardis that blew it up in the first place. I felt a degree of responsibility. But the scar tissue remains. A structural weakness in the whole universe. Whoa! And someone's trying to get through it from outside our universe, from somewhere else. Of course. Of course. It makes sense.
CLARA: It does?
DOCTOR: Yes. If you were trying to break through a wall, you'd choose the weakest spot. If you were trying to break into this universe, you'd choose this crack, because. No. If you were trying to break back into this universe. (to Handles) You said Gallifrey. Why did you say Gallifrey?
"

Another reminder that the cracks were caused by the tardis, almost destroying everything, because people were trying to get him.

That's the thing with time travel. I could appear tomorrow from our the future and kill you... Only to find out that before you died, you had gone forward in time and followed me through- killing me right afterwards. Before going back again to your original point where you end up being killed... by me...who you already killed.


So- in a universe where time travel is known and accomplished, I don't think people are stupid enough to think that just because they killed a time traveller means he can't still be around somewhere to get you, before you killed him.

To explain it with the events of Christmas now knowm- The silence would know instantly that it didn't work when they checked to see if the war was still going on at Christmas. Dows that make all the attempts to cover his tracks in s7 more explainable to you??

I'm not even going to bother anymore. You are not making any valid points. Just trying to call people thick when they don't agree with you.

I am making valid points but I agree let's leave it, we're never going to agree.

Thanks for the transcript but it basically just proves you were wrong and I was right!

Never mind the comedy line, Tasha said, explicitly, "They blew up your Time Capsule". Who is the "they" that Tasha says blew up the TARDIS? The hands of fate? It is clearly referring to the Kovarian Chapter. The Kovarian Chapter blew up the TARDIS. Precisely what you said didn't happen.

You are interpreting that destiny quote completely incorrectly. All it meant was what it said, "you can't change history if you're part of it". It was explaining how his fate is already sealed. No more, no less.

Of course it seems to be ignoring the whole Name of the Doctor thing where the GI changed history and then Clara changed it again but, hey, it was a few episodes ago you can't keep continuity up for too long in Doctor Who

I'd also love to know how Tasha knows what the Time Lords call the crack when there's no way for her to communicate with them


I have no problem with the idea that the TARDIS caused the cracks. I don't think anyone has been arguing otherwise

The idea was to kill him before he reaches Trenzalore to let the Time Lords back. If a past Doctor defeats the Kovarian Chapter later it doesn't stop the fact that the Doctor will now never get to Trenzalore so, as long as the Doctor is actually dead, their mission will be successful.

Otherwise, why did the Doctor pretend to have been killed? Why all the business with the Tesselator if you're just going to show up post-death for all to see?


If that's the case the whole Tesselator subterfuge would have been pointless. Presumably the Kovarian Chapter never returned to Trenzalore to see whether they'd fixed things or not (otherwise they'd have kept trying to kill him). Also, presumably, they never looked forwards to see that the Doctor never let the Time Lords through anyway (he just died on Trenzalore without ever speaking his name). That's the trouble with fanatics like Kovarian. Lots of righteous fury but no common sense