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Sherlock - BBC Drama (Part 3)


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Old 02-01-2017, 01:25
Versailles
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I was wondering where she got the money from to just take off on an extended trip. And did John look after Rosie on his own?
Even more puzzling, who looked after Rosie while her parents were in,...I cant remember Kuwait?

Molly has a job, so not her. Mrs Hudson is too old to care for a baby by herself.
Mycroft? Nah..
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:30
Versailles
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Someone here mentioned that the body of Mary was cremated. I just watchd this on Netflix, and there was no funeral shown. Was it cut?

It showed Watson briefly walking in a graveyard, and that's it.
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:33
Versailles
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I think Netflix may have done something with the episode, because the scene where Mary says that Rosie has 666 on her forhead, and John then says that she cant be both the devil and the antichrist, was shown twice.

With the exact same wording and movements of the actors.
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:39
lolly-licker
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Also didn't any one else notice that the man getting on the bus as Watson got off it the first time was the man who had his 50th birthday party?
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:41
Fraggles
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There were some good parts to that episode but overall I thought it was relatively weak, after a decent first half.

I found the Watson "cheating" implausible for that character. I'm sure it will end up having some underlying purpose but he loved his wife, with whom he had just had a baby. He's been portrayed throughout as a decent man and there is nothing previously which gives any inclination why he might consider playing away.

The main mystery was wrapped up in relatively poor fashion. It didn't seem to require too much Sherlocking to get to the culprit. As has been said above, getting Mary and John to a place of danger was then just stupid.

The scene with Mary on the plane and then subsequently posing as a stewardess made little sense. I presume they must have cut a scene but, as it was, it seemed poorly done.

On the plus side, the initial plot with the politician's son was intriguing and I am interested to see where it now goes.

For me, that's a 5/10 episode.
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:44
Fraggles
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I think Netflix may have done something with the episode, because the scene where Mary says that Rosie has 666 on her forhead, and John then says that she cant be both the devil and the antichrist, was shown twice.

With the exact same wording and movements of the actors.

It was shown twice with the second occasion being the reveal that John was texting the bus lady when his wife left the bedroom. The first occasion ended when he picked up he phone.
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:59
BomoLad
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I really didn't like it. For a start that bit where he placed the memory stick inside the hollow bust of Thatcher. Surely it would have just been lying on the table when someone picked the bust up. He put it in like shoving it into an upside down cup, when the cup's lifted from the table the stick would have fallen out.
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Old 02-01-2017, 02:02
Alrightmate
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Someone here mentioned that the body of Mary was cremated. I just watchd this on Netflix, and there was no funeral shown. Was it cut?

It showed Watson briefly walking in a graveyard, and that's it.
It did show a coffin being cremated. But it was in one of Sherlock's special effects laden brain imagination videos to depict the passing of time. You may have missed it as it may have been obscured by a shark flying past or something.
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Old 02-01-2017, 03:11
Majorkey
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The Butler (Secretary) Did It was more than a bit lazy and unoriginal and we had not one but two Fallacies Of The Talking Killer (Mary's teammate and the secretary) doing pages and pages of exposition despite their very desperate situations.

It seems doubtful that a lone copper would have rushed into the AJ/Mary/Sherlock/John standoff and even more doubtful that he would have fired a round into AJ's back from the doorway. Surely a situation like that would have brought the police in their droves and they would have surrounded the building but would have waited to rush in? If they did rush in, wouldn't it have been a team, probably one kitted out in paramilitary gear?

Despite these and other criticisms, the writer and production team managed to claw the series back somewhat from the Sherlock Holmes 007 of the previous episode although the chase-round-the-world with Mary and her secret past was very Bond. If Mary is, in fact, dead then that's a bit of a surprise given all the series publicity. There did seem to be numerous might-it-be-Moriarty-again red herrings.

They continue to downplay or even mock Sherlock's detective abilities as he comments and solves them at warp speed. Part of Holmes' appeal, as Doyle wrote him, was to keep his cards hidden until the last moment. This Sherlock absolutely rips through the dialogue 'I see XYZ which means ABC happened so I'll be off now'....robbing the audience of a payoff.

Whatever happens from here, it's nice to have Holmes back in London - he even demanded same.
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Old 02-01-2017, 06:53
Nollaig79
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I thought that the storyline was confusing and all over the place, but it was an improvement on the last series. However, the first two series were still the best IMO.
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Old 02-01-2017, 07:20
Normandie
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I was wondering where she got the money from to just take off on an extended trip. And did John look after Rosie on his own?
I suppose if she's a superb ex-spy / assassin / special covert ops person, she probably has accounts and money tucked away all over the world. Or Europe and the Middle East, anyway.

It was entertaining and positively good in places but Sherlock delivering dialogue at breakneck speed - sometimes to confess it was all made up - is becoming less appealing and looks like the writers are trying too hard to be funny and running out of ideas.

It is - for me - getting a bit style over substance-y... some great sets and lovely effects like water reflecting off faces, fretwork screens and shutters throwing patterns all around a room. Or sharks swimming in a metaphorical sort of way in the background. But it doesn't make up for silly things like the memory stick being stuffed up a hole in a bust and expecting us to believe it wouldn't fall straight back out again when it was picked up to be finished.

I'm okay with Sherlock getting Mary killed because his personality disorder (alright: his ego-driven self-indulgence) forces him to be stupidly clever without reading the emotional impact his words are having but too much self-indulgence like that by the writers makes me look at Sherlock and think 'twot' and as a long-term fan of the man (over the past 45 years) that's not a reaction I want to have.

6/10
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Old 02-01-2017, 07:55
Takae
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Please scroll past my post if you want to avoid heavy spoilers:

Its going to be really hard to believe that John would forgive Sherlock...

Sherlock is to blame for Mary's death, he put Mary there, and for no good reason (other than the writers needing a way to kill the character of Mary off) why did Sherlock even need them there, he has confronted many baddies by himself (again writers needed a way to kill Mary) and purposely done so by himself in the past as to not to put John in danger, and yet in this episode he puts Mary who he has vowed to protect right bang in the middle of danger.

For me this doesn't ring true within the show, the writers needed to come up with a better more organic way of killing off Mary.
Mary was an assassin, a spy, a professional thief and a mercenary. John is a veteran, who'd worked as a military medic through a desert war (I can't remember which; the Afghanistan war?). So it's not as if they were an ordinary couple with no combat skills.

It's also worth remembering that Mary chose to go to the aquarium and again, chose to save Sherlock instead of keeping herself out of harm's way for her newborn's sake.

If she and John were that concerned about Mary's safety, she wouldn't have gone to the aquarium. They knew Sherlock's work was highly dangerous, right?

That said, I agree the writer should have had a better way to kill her off.

This should be the end of John and Sherlock's friendship, John has put up with some crap from Sherlock over the years at some point there has to be a line, a breaking point, and Sherlock being responsible for the death of the woman he loved and the Mother to his baby... yeah no way would John ever forgive, move on and let it be, it would be the end of them.
John wasn't exactly faithful to Mary during their last weeks, and he was the one who suggested Mary should go to the aquarium first.

Now she's dead, he feels so guilty that he's putting the entire blame on Sherlock. Much easier to blame him than acknowledging that all three - John, Mary and Sherlock - have made decisions that ultimately cost her life.
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Old 02-01-2017, 08:01
JEFF62
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I think Netflix may have done something with the episode, because the scene where Mary says that Rosie has 666 on her forhead, and John then says that she cant be both the devil and the antichrist, was shown twice.

With the exact same wording and movements of the actors.
Im getting confused. The new episode is not on Netflix.
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Old 02-01-2017, 08:25
Takae
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I thought that the storyline was confusing and all over the place, but it was an improvement on the last series. However, the first two series were still the best IMO.
I like the first series, too. I found the episode last night boring and rather predictable.

Two examples on predictability: I knew it was Vivian after they questioned Lady Whateverhername. The least likely suspect is always the one, right? I also guessed MW would die after John inexplicably started flirting with the bus woman. John always feels guilty about something, which happened in almost every series so far. Makes sense to kill her off. It'd tide John over the next two episodes.

I just couldn't guess how she'd die and why until much later. I did wonder if the bus woman was someone from Mary's past. An old enemy or assassin with an agenda. Mostly because the bus woman wore such a fake-looking wig.

Two of the bits I dislike:

the scene with the grieving parents. No one in that scene seemed interested in the fact that a young man died. It was basically a scene of slapstick comedy, which I thought was ridiculous. No real explanation on how the son died, either. "Probably a seizure." That's it. Odd when Sherlock repeatedly says he doesn't like loose ends. I mean, there was no comment about the son's possible health issues or the fact he was a healthy young man. Shoddy writing in this scene.

Mary's death scene. Went on too long. She got shot in the chest, but had enough time to make those little speeches? Please. I once had an arrow shot into my thigh. There was no way in hell I could make a little speech. Confusion first, then shock, then this tidal wave of intense pain, then the wooziness from losing so much blood. But Mary? A bullet in the chest is much worse than an arrow in a thigh and yet, it was: "Gee, this is not good. Oh well, it's just a giant hole in my chest. Let me say something to John and Sherlock before I die."

Yeah, it was all over the place. Not just the plot, but also the tone. It felt as if it couldn't make up its mind whether to be a dark thriller or a light-hearted comedy-mystery. I wouldn't mind this if it wasn't so boring.

I'll give second episode a try, though. In case it'll improve on last night's episode.

4/10 for me.
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Old 02-01-2017, 08:43
Jenny1986
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Yes but this was never going to be a tradional Sherlock Holmes show in the usual sense. Right from the start they proved that were prepared to take it to different levels. I actually love watching the development of the characters, in this situation. The way we see Sherlock's character open out, has been one of the best developments for me. I have a feeling the last two episodes will be really something, especially when Toby Jones enters the story. He is a compelling actor and having him and Benedict in the same scene should be mesmerizing.
That's true, but I think the liberties they took in the beginning were really good, they still loosely kept to the stories while modernising them in a believable way. They have developed the show into something else entirely since series 3. I think some of our dislike of Mary is harsh, and I have a feeling her death won't improve the core issues people have, but we'll see. It may just be that it has changed and left a few folk behind which is a shame because people really loved it.

Personally I enjoyed a lot about series 3, but I had misgivings, and I continue to have misgivings as the show continues on this path, I wish they would just reign it in a bit. I'm pretty positive about the next episodes with Toby Jones though, love him.
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Old 02-01-2017, 08:49
A.D.P
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Excellent episode.
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Old 02-01-2017, 08:59
Aaron_2015
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I suppose if she's a superb ex-spy / assassin / special covert ops person, she probably has accounts and money tucked away all over the world. Or Europe and the Middle East, anyway.

It was entertaining and positively good in places but Sherlock delivering dialogue at breakneck speed - sometimes to confess it was all made up - is becoming less appealing and looks like the writers are trying too hard to be funny and running out of ideas.

It is - for me - getting a bit style over substance-y... some great sets and lovely effects like water reflecting off faces, fretwork screens and shutters throwing patterns all around a room. Or sharks swimming in a metaphorical sort of way in the background. But it doesn't make up for silly things like the memory stick being stuffed up a hole in a bust and expecting us to believe it wouldn't fall straight back out again when it was picked up to be finished.

I'm okay with Sherlock getting Mary killed because his personality disorder (alright: his ego-driven self-indulgence) forces him to be stupidly clever without reading the emotional impact his words are having but too much self-indulgence like that by the writers makes me look at Sherlock and think 'twot' and as a long-term fan of the man (over the past 45 years) that's not a reaction I want to have.

6/10
I agree with most of this.

For whatever reason, the writers have decided that just a good story is not enough. I wish we could go back to the storytelling from series 1 and 2.

Sherlock also came off quite unlikeable; his arrogance is one of his defining character features but I feel it got taken too far in the opening scenes with the bereaved parents.

There were some funny moments however, especially with the balloon having replacing Watson since 9am.
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:23
claire2281
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Sherlock also came off quite unlikeable; his arrogance is one of his defining character features but I feel it got taken too far in the opening scenes with the bereaved parents.
That's one of the things that bugs me the most about the character - he's bad with people and rude mostly, it seems, because the writers find it funny. Except in situations like that it's really not. The original character was very good with people - Watson commented particularly how good he was with women considering his general distrust of them - because it was logical and useful to be so. The writers there have made a conscious decision to change that and tbh they don't have the skill to write that with the deftness of touch it requires.
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:31
jimbo1962
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after the excesses of the last series I thought they reined back on the self indulgences, the directorial flourishes and the overplotting, I quite enjoyed it.
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:33
andyhargreaves
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I basically liked the episode.

From canon,
Spoiler


I think the Moriarty story arc will run throughout the series, culminating in Sherlock being correct after all towards the end.

As for the Lying Detective, again from canon,
Spoiler
I reckon there will be a broadly similar story arc here, quite possibly returning to the "traditional" Sherlock formula of solving a case. The Mary/John/Moriarty will probably be woven in around it somewhat.

Intrigued to see where this goes.
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:51
PaperSkin
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Why did Mary die for Sherlock though, She has a new born daughter, that doesn't ring true to me (unless its a faked death) a Mother's survival instincts would incredibly high after having a baby and being in the first stage of taking care of said baby...

And yet she jumps in front of a bullet to save Sherlock, why, Sherlock would of preferred himself to of be the one to get shot not Mary, so she can have the family life with John and their daughter which is what Sherlock wanted, he wants them to be happy, he wouldn't want to break the family up just for his life (that he doesn't really value all that much anyway) and why would Mary sacrifice her life for him, sure she likes him a lot and Sherlock has helped her, but really choosing Sherlock over being there as a mother for her daughter and leaving John to be the sole parent in raising the daughter, nah don't buy that.
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Old 02-01-2017, 10:16
Baz_James
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Mrs Hudson is too old to care for a baby by herself.
.
What? I wasn't aware there was an age limit. This will come as a bit of a shock to a lot of single grandparents and great grandparents.
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Old 02-01-2017, 10:31
Baz_James
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I can't say that I've payed too much attention, but is it often the case that some people who enjoy an episode of something also post while the episode is being broadcast to compliment and praise the episode?
If this is the case then why aren't those people who praise an episode while it is actually being broadcast criticised as well?

Not that I'm saying that they should, just that shouldn't people be treated equally whether they like something or not?
I'm more than happy to criticise them too, especially when it comes to something as complex and full of background nods as Sherlock. If it's a programme I care for I simply allow no distractions and still miss things from time to time. Eyes on the prize if you're going to have any kind of informed opinion.
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Old 02-01-2017, 10:34
pedrok
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Have all the moaners gone yet? I try to avoid the first few pages of "reviews" on here, as people either don't understand what's going on (when it's perfectly clear) or think it's "crap".

Boring beyond belief to have to wade through - do they know how dim they sound I wonder? Perhaps they don't care.

Anyway, I really liked it - it was back to the quality of the first two series imo having lost it's way when it became steeped in sentiment in series 3.

There were some flaws; I agree that the Thatcher bust sub plot was unlikely. I actually thought Mary's trip was just too much padding.

I must admit I'm glad Mary's dead, but it seems she's still hanging around in spite of it. Oh, well.

John's bit on the side won't end well. I'm sure there's something not good there.

Can't wait for next week.

Who's Sherringford?






Well that's remarkably selfish, given that if you don't like it you needn't watch it.
See those flaws in the episode, is that because you didn't understand what was going on, or because you are too dim?
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Old 02-01-2017, 10:38
Baz_James
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That made me think that is is how it may be written. It may be revealed that the marriage was on the rocks anyway and John's fanciful thoughts about the woman on the bus are evidence of that. So yes, his blaming of Sherlock might be a deflection away from his own guilt. It may be Sherlock who tells him that too.

No idea about the 'Go to hell!' line I suspect that it may be a metaphor being used as a clue for the next case. For example Sherlock has to investigate a cult of satanists or something.
It's amazing, isn't it, that what's clearly intended as a teaser is being analysed as though it was part of the story this week rather than next? It's a common trailer trick to give something out of context which later turns out to have a completely different explanation than any of the obvious immediate reactions would suggest. Yet we already have 'experts' interpreting for us.
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