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Sherlock - BBC Drama (Part 3) |
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#1076 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Taedet animam meam vitae
Posts: 40,368
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Quote:
I remember Sherlock describing himself as a "high functioning sociopath" on at least a couple of occasions in this series. Surely a sociopath possesses a high level of moral "dubiousness", and so I'd argue that it is sufficiently mentioned.
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#1077 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: goo goo ka choo
Posts: 25,473
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You could write the Beeb blurb for the next series :
"Sherlock..its better than Atlantis " |
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#1078 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,766
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Quote:
I remember Sherlock describing himself as a "high functioning sociopath" on at least a couple of occasions in this series. Surely a sociopath possesses a high level of moral "dubiousness", and so I'd argue that it is sufficiently mentioned.
And it's all a bit much when, except for John, virtually everybody of note appears to be a high functioning sociopath in one way or another. |
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#1079 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 340
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Quote:
apologies for being off topic but Atlantis really was terrible can't believe it survived and Ripper Street got axed....i have decided to blame Mary Watson for that.
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#1080 |
![]() Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 12,563
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Hi all,
Things got a bit nasty a few pages back and we've had to remove a large number of posts. Can we please remind users that it's best for all of us that you alert and ignore any disruptive posts that you may come across - this makes it easier for us to clean the thread up. In regard to the disruptive discussion, we won't hesitate to remove any users from this thread who are not respectful to each other. We'd also reasonably expect all users posting here to have actually watched the episodes... DS FS |
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#1081 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A Town Called Malice
Posts: 3,915
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Quote:
I think that's a fair point. Something didn't sit well with me with Sherlock effectively just executing him. As you point out I'm not sure that Magnussen deserved to be actually murdered. That's like giving Sherlock God-like authority over everything we perceive to be just and right.
In the episode itself it highlighted the fact that Sherlock is a sociopath, (or psychopath if you prefer), but it also highlighted what ensures that he is a force for good in that he does kill people. That's the difference. So for me that was a line that should never have been crossed. You can't have Sherlock just killing people to solve a problem. It doesn't sit right and it undermines the image of him having this remarkable talent for solving crimes. All this mind palace stuff, and it comes down to simply shooting somebody in the head with a gun. No, that doesn't sit right with me at all. Shouldn't have crossed that line as far as I'm concerned. In regard to your other points. Perhaps the Holmes house at Christmas could be described as padding. But I felt that the sequence after Sherlock was shot was wonderful. Exactly the sort of thing I like about this show. I don't think that the episode was padded out as much as you do. I felt that the content was about right, the pace just right, the balance between character and crime solving was about right, and I felt that it fulfilled delivering much of what some felt was lacking in the previous two episodes. As I say I do agree with one or two criticisms, but on the whole I'm very happy with the episode. However, in "The Adventures of Charles Augustus Milverton", when the victim goes to shoot Milverton, Watson tries to intervene but Holmes stops him and not only allows her to kill him, but allows her to get away with the murder, because he feels it morally justified. He may not pull the trigger but he is complicit in the murder. Holmes is not averse to thinking he has some God given moral authority to decide who should live or die and who should or should not be punished. He's happy to act as Judge, jury and proxy executioner. So I think its actually in keeping that a modern Sherlock would actually pull the trigger on the villain he hates more than any other. |
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#1082 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 12,683
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Tiresome, repetitive criticism of someone who has pointed out in a calm way the flaws within the programme. You Moffat fanboys really need to chill out and not take every criticism of your hero's writing so personally.
If you didn't like series three of Sherlock then you didn't like series three. If you didn't like this weeks episode then you didn't like this weeks episode. I'm not convinced that either of those particular criticisms need to be matched with Moffat's name. Particularly not in the way that a select few in this thread have. Just as if you did like the series and/or this episode there's really no reason for that to be matched to Moffat in any grand way. Quote:
But as others have said, if he can simply murder to solve a case then why bother doing anything else?
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#1083 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mid Wales / Canolbarth Cymru
Posts: 37,471
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Quote:
apologies for being off topic but Atlantis really was terrible can't believe it survived and Ripper Street got axed....i have decided to blame Mary Watson for that.
I did watch all of Atlantis
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#1084 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 12,683
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Quote:
Whilst then he may have affection for John and kill Magnusson he certainly wouldn't have found Magnusson repulsive.
And it's all a bit much when, except for John, virtually everybody of note appears to be a high functioning sociopath in one way or another. |
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#1085 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: goo goo ka choo
Posts: 25,473
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Quote:
D'you know I've heard so many people say this! I'll have to give Ripper Street a go I think.
I did watch all of Atlantis ![]() Can anyone answer me something i asked earlier that may have got lost in the multitude of posts: does the teaser for Moriaty mean that Sherlock didn't actually succeed in tracking down and dismantling Moriaty's network? |
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#1086 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,561
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But as others have said, if he can simply murder to solve a case then why bother doing anything else?
Shooting him was the only option. |
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#1087 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 80,198
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Quote:
I think that's a fair point. Something didn't sit well with me with Sherlock effectively just executing him. As you point out I'm not sure that Magnussen deserved to be actually murdered. That's like giving Sherlock God-like authority over everything we perceive to be just and right.
In the episode itself it highlighted the fact that Sherlock is a sociopath, (or psychopath if you prefer), but it also highlighted what ensures that he is a force for good in that he does kill people. That's the difference. So for me that was a line that should never have been crossed. You can't have Sherlock just killing people to solve a problem. It doesn't sit right and it undermines the image of him having this remarkable talent for solving crimes. All this mind palace stuff, and it comes down to simply shooting somebody in the head with a gun. No, that doesn't sit right with me at all. Shouldn't have crossed that line as far as I'm concerned. In regard to your other points. Perhaps the Holmes house at Christmas could be described as padding. But I felt that the sequence after Sherlock was shot was wonderful. Exactly the sort of thing I like about this show. I don't think that the episode was padded out as much as you do. I felt that the content was about right, the pace just right, the balance between character and crime solving was about right, and I felt that it fulfilled delivering much of what some felt was lacking in the previous two episodes. As I say I do agree with one or two criticisms, but on the whole I'm very happy with the episode. Quote:
On the killing business. I think it's debatable as to whether Magnussen as portrayed (and I should say that Lars Mikklesen was terrific) was evil enough to warrant a summary execution.
However, in "The Adventures of Charles Augustus Milverton", when the victim goes to shoot Milverton, Watson tries to intervene but Holmes stops him and not only allows her to kill him, but allows her to get away with the murder, because he feels it morally justified. He may not pull the trigger but he is complicit in the murder. Holmes is not averse to thinking he has some God given moral authority to decide who should live or die and who should or should not be punished. He's happy to act as Judge, jury and proxy executioner. So I think its actually in keeping that a modern Sherlock would actually pull the trigger on the villain he hates more than any other. |
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#1088 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,766
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Quote:
On the killing business. I think it's debatable as to whether Magnussen as portrayed (and I should say that Lars Mikklesen was terrific) was evil enough to warrant a summary execution.
However, in "The Adventures of Charles Augustus Milverton", when the victim goes to shoot Milverton, Watson tries to intervene but Holmes stops him and not only allows her to kill him, but allows her to get away with the murder, because he feels it morally justified. He may not pull the trigger but he is complicit in the murder. Holmes is not averse to thinking he has some God given moral authority to decide who should live or die and who should or should not be punished. He's happy to act as Judge, jury and proxy executioner. So I think its actually in keeping that a modern Sherlock would actually pull the trigger on the villain he hates more than any other. |
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#1089 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,541
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Quote:
Holmes was quite happy for his bessie mate to stay married to Mary even though she had cold bloodily attempted to kill Janine???
And how did Janine get better so quickly??? ![]() 2. Janine was not shot. She was a person knocked out, rendered unconscious, made supine, given the gift of a dream, coldc-ahem-ked, stunned, micky finned without a drink, having an enforced forty winks, daydreaming with prejudice, being helped to deep trance. She was not anywhere to being an Ex-Person. So, she woke up with little or no damage. (Pretty sure she would otherwise have sold her concussion to the newspapers too.) |
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#1090 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,766
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Quote:
Although of course Sherlock does actually say that he finds Magnusson repulsive (or words to that effect).
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#1091 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Belgium
Posts: 154
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I quite enjoyed it. Moffat seems to always want to go one step further, which is why we don't have episodes about Sherlock investigating cases about other people (that would be going back to S1). In season 3, all three episodes were about twist and turns about people we already know.
If it continues that way in season 4, the show will probably end up being too convoluted and I might lose interest. That said, the writing in this episode was excellent. Dialogues in particular were great. I laughed out loud many times and I thought revelations about Mary were both unexpected and well dealt with. I want more. Has it been officially recommissioned yet? The end of this episode certainly seems to indicate so. |
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#1092 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 23
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James Moriaty is dead... long live James Moriarty.....
Maybe his brother.... station master James Moriarty (The Valley of Fear )and then Colonel Moriarty(named in The Adventure of the Empty House). (What a career change) will make an appearance in the next series. |
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#1093 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 12,683
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Quote:
Do! i thoroughly enjoyed it!
Can anyone answer me something i asked earlier that may have got lost in the multitude of posts: does the teaser for Moriaty mean that Sherlock didn't actually succeed in tracking down and dismantling Moriaty's network? Perhaps someone can answer a question for me. How much time (in show) has actually passed this series? The series obviously ends at Christmas but where did it begin? |
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#1094 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Taedet animam meam vitae
Posts: 40,368
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Quote:
On the killing business. I think it's debatable as to whether Magnussen as portrayed (and I should say that Lars Mikklesen was terrific) was evil enough to warrant a summary execution.
However, in "The Adventures of Charles Augustus Milverton", when the victim goes to shoot Milverton, Watson tries to intervene but Holmes stops him and not only allows her to kill him, but allows her to get away with the murder, because he feels it morally justified. He may not pull the trigger but he is complicit in the murder. Holmes is not averse to thinking he has some God given moral authority to decide who should live or die and who should or should not be punished. He's happy to act as Judge, jury and proxy executioner. So I think its actually in keeping that a modern Sherlock would actually pull the trigger on the villain he hates more than any other. Two instances spring to mind from the wonderful ITV series: in The Blue Carbuncle when Sherlock lets the snivelling thief off the hook: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAcQQefQeDY (from 50.00 onwards) and The Devil's Foot when Sherlock let's the murderer go free: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4s3tbzL9UA (from 49.00 onwards) Both examples beautifully played by Jeremy Brett. Watson is so often the voice of law and order. Holmes the voice of instinct and natural justice. |
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#1095 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A Town Called Malice
Posts: 3,915
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Quote:
D'you know I've heard so many people say this! I'll have to give Ripper Street a go I think.
I did watch all of Atlantis ![]() Two series of top quality drama IMHO. Still crossing everything that some one will find a way to make a third series. If you could sit through Atlantis…(no likey), you will enjoy Ripper St. Some of it is quite gruesome, but the acting is excellent, Jerome Flynn is a standout, but they all deliver. It's well written, the production values are high, and the plots are gripping with some genuinely moving performances and stories. Quite a few people on DS were initially quite sniffy about it, and pendants had a field day pointing out supposed anachronisms, which invariably weren't anachronisms, but it picked up an ardent following. I love it.
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#1096 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 23
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Quote:
Difficult to say at this point until we know how and indeed if Moriarty survived
Will have to wait and see if it is Moriarty.... or Moriarty.... some something Mycroft cooked up to get Sherlock back or someone else....
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#1097 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Holby
Posts: 687
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Quote:
Whilst then he may have affection for John and kill Magnusson he certainly wouldn't have found Magnusson repulsive.
And it's all a bit much when, except for John, virtually everybody of note appears to be a high functioning sociopath in one way or another. I think it was all well signposted that Magnusson would have to die, and Sherlock's actions were completely in character. I'm glad that it was Sherlock who killed him, as it allows Mary to have her fresh start. Had she been successful with her original plan, her whole new life as Mrs Watson would be flawed. |
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#1098 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: goo goo ka choo
Posts: 25,473
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Quote:
Difficult to say at this point until we know how and indeed if Moriarty survived. Its possible Sherlock dismantled it and then Moriarty just put it all back together afterward. Or just let Sherlock think he was dismantling it.
Perhaps someone can answer a question for me. How much time (in show) has actually passed this series? The series obviously ends at Christmas but where did it begin? |
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#1099 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mid Wales / Canolbarth Cymru
Posts: 37,471
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Quote:
I quite enjoyed it. Moffat seems to always want to go one step further, which is why we don't have episodes about Sherlock investigating cases about other people (that would be going back to S1). In season 3, all three episodes were about twist and turns about people we already know.
If it continues that way in season 4, the show will probably end up being too convoluted and I might lose interest. That said, the writing in this episode was excellent. Dialogues in particular were great. I laughed out loud many times and I thought revelations about Mary were both unexpected and well dealt with. I want more. Has it been officially recommissioned yet? The end of this episode certainly seems to indicate so. |
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#1100 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 80,198
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Quote:
But as others have said, if he can simply murder to solve a case then why bother doing anything else?
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And how did Janine get better so quickly???