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Sherlock - BBC Drama (Part 3) |
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#1601 |
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Join Date: Feb 2013
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I think at this point Moriarty and Holmes faked both their deaths , and Magnusson's , oh and Irene's too .
is anyone actually dead ? |
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#1602 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
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the only thing that has puzzled me is why would the worlds greatest criminal brain kill himself just to get one up on Holmes?.. surely Moriarty would want to revel in the demise of Sherlock.so my take on this is that he must have somehow faked his death as well
(apologies if this has been discussed before.. it's a very long thread) Still new at this forum business, so not sure if i can boast. Sorry if it's inapropriate but as i said , we're not sure yet.
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#1603 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
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Well for one thing Sherlock in the episode states that he's a sociopath, but the difference is that he uses his abilities to solve crimes and not kill people.
So when Sherlock shoots Magnussen in the head, although some may see that as 'winning', it could also be seen as Sherlock conceding defeat to have to resort to that at all. He should see that as a defeat too because he prides himself to be more clever than anybody else and every case is an intellectual challenge to him. It somehow doesn't seem to fit with his own code presented in the series. He would be too arrogant to accept being bettered by a mind that outsmarted him. Shoooting Magnussen in head stopped him. Fair enough. It solved the problem. But it was brute force and not due to Sherlock overcoming Magnussen intellectually. Which seems wrong considering how the character of Sherlock has been presented to us up until this point. But as stated before, i'm not convinced it was ether necessary or a last resort. If it was somewhat part of his plan, it makes a little more sens. |
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#1604 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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I don't like Mary as I feel it was unnecessary for her to attempt to kill Sherlock. After all, as someone else pointed out, she didn't know he was going to survive because of John. She could have shot him in the leg and then knocked him unconscious like she did Janine.
I enjoy the interactions between John and Sherlock and Mary has spoiled this. For me anyhow. I feel the writers have expanded her part too much in order to give Amanda Abbington a larger role. She is a capable actress although rather plain to look at, not that that has anything to do with her acting of course, but I have now seen enough of Mary, too much in fact. I may be totally wrong about everything but that is how I feel. He should have looked on the USB drive. He might have found her missing tax returns
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#1605 |
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I feel like the only way to stop CAM was to kill him. He was dangerous because of all the information he knew and the only way to stop him was to destroy that information. Other criminals you can lock up and take away their power and network, but his power was always inside him.
I got the impression that while Sherlock stood back and allowed CAM to flick Watson as much as he liked, that Sherlock was assessing the situation and his options. And yeah, I do think that shooting and killing CAM was the only option left to Sherlock to protect Mary and stop CAM in the long run (well killing him or some sort of serious brain damage with long term memory loss but that's a very difficult thing to induce in someone). Sherlock and Watson went to see CAM in order to retrieve the information he had on Mary and ensure he never used it against her. It might have been blunt but mission accomplished.
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#1606 |
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Well the whole plot depended on it. It depended on CAM making a really stupid mistake. It's not that Sherlock did anything clever, just that CAM did something really stupid. Anyone could have killed him at any time, after he failed to check they weren't armed. And it's not even like Sherlock did it in any kind of clever way such that he'd be protected from the consequences.
Compare it to how Walter White gets Gus Fring at the end of Breaking Bad Season Four – that took planning, psychology and smarts, seeking out Gus's weakness, in a believable way that surprised. ) with Mycroft conveniently sorting out that issue for him.Sherlock murders Magnussen, the unexpected intervention of the god(Mycroft) appears at the end in a machine (helicopter) to solve the seemingly unsolvable problem of Sherlock going down and doing time. Tah Dahhh. |
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#1607 |
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Once it was revealed that Magnusson stored all his secret data in his head alone then the British government had only two options: kill him or imprison him for life.
The problem with the latter is that Magnusson could easily blackmail a number of high standing people in control of the judicial system and be released. That left killing Magnusson. |
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#1608 |
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If it was a matter of life and death then i'm sue he could have faked grief.
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#1609 |
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I see what you did there.
![]() Compared to the literally hundreds of posts which were made on here, speculating about how Sherlock survived the 'fall' at the end of series 2, sweet FA. People won't be fooled again. I think most are convinced that it's just Moriarty's brother - again a bit of a weak cliffhanger, if true.I still feel disappointed about the feeble 'resolution' that we've so far been offered for Sherlock surviving the fall. Perhaps the writers will return to it in series 4? If so, then they're referring back to something that happpened at least a full series ago - surely they wouldn't attempt that? Series 3 has been good telly, no doubt but it simply hasn't hit the heights of the first 2 series. Too self-referential, feeble 'comedy' moments (Christ, that elephant in the room 'gag' - what was the editor thinking?), the laboured humanisation of Holmes, the sentimentality... Episode 3 did go some way towards redressing the balance by having more of what made the previous series good but it always had a long way to go. Whoops, better add 'IN MY OPINION, OF COURSE' just in case it sets the fanboys off again. ![]() |
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#1610 |
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Join Date: Jun 2002
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So what?
A) - Mycroft probably couldn't hear him B) - Why would Sherlock believe he had to justify himself, he's right C) - Sherlock already knows Mycroft won't execute him outright. If anything it was a redundant line to the viewer - unless Sherlock and Mycroft had an "understanding" As long as you're 'right' you can kill with impunity because you're the hero. |
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#1611 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
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HLV was partly about tabloid press so let's go into their territory a bit. Let's talk porn!
When Magnussen visualised his victims bio with pressure points, there was a line about porn preference. Everyone i remember had the mention: normal. (something completely subjective; what is normal? one wank a month? anyway not important). My point is that Sherlock too had the mention normal. I would have expected for him the mention'non-existent'. Now we know he's like other men. Unless it's because he has to go to some site for cases. That's a nice excuse used by a lot 'i was doing research'. Yeah right! I suppose Sherlock would be the only person i would accept that answer. But i stated before that he went to the crack house for a case but also for his addiction. I'm writing this one as a jest. I won't accept that Sherlock is a ******! ![]() ![]()
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#1612 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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I think both Magnusson and Moriarty are dead.
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#1613 |
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I thought it odd at the time that Holmes did not examine Moriarty's body just to make sure. To do so would, after all, have been elementary...
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That's exactly the problem I have with it. Why on earth does Sherlock have to jump at all if Mycroft has the men and resources to cover every potential sniping point (including those vantage points with a view of the airbag) and thus has already prevented Watson getting shot?
Is it because Sherlock thought he might have to also fool Moriarty because he didn't know that Moriarty would kill himself? But that doesn't work either because what would have stopped Moriarty from seeing the airbag if he had remained alive? If the over-arching requirement was simply for Holmes to be believed dead (so that he could destroy Moriarty's network) there were a load of other ways to achieve it. Sorry if it's been covered before but it is bugging me... ![]() Sherlock didn't know if Moriarty would kill himself, even if he did calculate that it was an option. Ok, he sait he had 13 or so plans and after Moriarty did kill himself he put Lazarus into operation but it's still a bit rich that he had all these people involved for this setup. How many people were involved if they had to do one of the other 12 alternatives? |
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#1614 |
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That's exactly the problem I have with it. Why on earth does Sherlock have to jump at all if Mycroft has the men and resources to cover every potential sniping point (including those vantage points with a view of the airbag) and thus has already prevented Watson getting shot?
Mycroft may very well have the resources to cover the vantage points of a very specific location for a brief period of time but this does not extend to offering complete protection for every second of every day. As Moriarty lays out in the episode itself his network is under orders to continue until Sherlock is dead. Not just those individuals currently in London targeting Watson and co. but his entire network. There are just two things that can change that – either Moriarty himself will call them off (which is why he kills himself to stop this from happening) or Sherlock has to die. Sherlock has to jump because as long as he's still alive those closest to him are the targets of Moriarty. This is also why he can't resurface as alive again until he has dismantled Moriarty's network and the reason he can't reach out to Watson and tell him that he's still alive, for fear that Moriarty's network will still be monitoring him (Watson) and thus putting everyone back in danger again. When you think about it this actually dovetails rather nicely with the series three finale. In series two Sherlock 'kills himself' to protect those closest to him. In series three Sherlock commits murder to protect those closest to him. Quote:
It's not that the plan to kill Gus boiled down to one episode - obviously Walt wanted to kill him from Ep 1 - my point was that he only concocted that particular plan in that episode, or possibly the penultimate one. Before that he was trying to blow up Fring's car.
That he was trying to kill him in earlier episodes is irrelevant to my point, which was that it is possible to come up with a plot where the 'hero' uses brute force/violence to kill a very smart villain, but still do it in a clever way that involves psychology, cunning, technology etc. Rather than just pulling out a weapon that he shouldn't logically have had access to. "That it was Sherlock's last desperate move." It was Walt's last desperate move too. Additionally I'd point out that I think you're missing the point of what they were trying to do in Sherlock. The idea here is that its not supposed to be a clever way of killing him. Unlike Walt's killing of Gus in Breaking Bad you aren't supposed to view Sherlock's killing of Magnusson as planned. It wasn't Sherlock's plan all along to get there and shoot him. This was his last desperate action because he had no clever plan. He had no other options. All that was left open to him was brute force. Imposing a clever death to make it a bit cooler would completely undermine what they were trying to do with the story and the characters. As I said previously I think the problem with the episode was that they didn't do enough to show Sherlock's plan unraveling and to illustrate his desperation in having no other option. Of not being able to think his way out of the situation. Although I think Cumberbatch actually does a rather brilliant job of portraying that it might have been nice to have a explicit demonstration of it. Perhaps him running alternative scenarios in his head that all fail or something. |
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#1615 |
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Which would be perfectly fine if this was a Chuck Norris or Jean Claude Van Damme film.
As long as you're 'right' you can kill with impunity because you're the hero. |
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#1616 |
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Join Date: Jun 2002
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I thought it odd at the time that Holmes did not examine Moriarty's body just to make sure. To do so would, after all, have been elementary...
Fake back of head filled with an explosive blood bag. Gun isn't an actual gun but just a detonator to explode the fake back of head. |
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#1617 |
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I'm really sorry to come across as a bit supercilious but, *really*? Was this episode really that hard to follow? It seemed to play out quite like any other Sherlock story in terms of ducking and diving.
I did find the episode hard to follow, yes. I thought it was quite convoluted. But I've still only watched it once, so far. For me, there was a marked contrast in how HLV was written and presented to us in comparison to all the other episodes, in my estimation; and that threw me a bit, I think. I'm hoping it will all come together for me upon a second viewing. |
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#1618 |
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Join Date: Nov 2013
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I'll stick out one rubbish theory.
Fake back of head filled with an explosive blood bag. Gun isn't an actual gun but just a detonator to explode the fake back of head. ![]() I said that (post 848 of part two of this thread) but with a blank in the gun. Got answered a blank was too risky. Still believe with todays movie FX it would be easy
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#1619 |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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This went from being one of the greatest shows ever produced to absolute mediocrity in one season.
Thought this will be up there with some classics in the future but after season 3 I really don't want to see any-more. Looks like ego got the best of the writers. |
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#1620 |
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The problem now is, if it isn't Moriarty and people have to wait 2 years to find it isn't there is going to be a certain amount of uproar and you can lay odds that the Moff way would be to declare its not Moriarty and skip over the fact that the return of Moriarty was what got Sherlock off the hook this time.
On another note I think one thing I've realised is that, when they tweak a Holmes story from the original they tend to go off the rails a bit. The fake death in the original was that Holmes threw Moriarty to his death in a fight at the falls but then had to go into hiding because Moran was after him. They try and do something clever with the new version and it ends up a convoluted mess with apparently no one dead. In the original CAM story it was the blackmailed woman who shot CAM and Holmes let her off..far more satisfactory for me. I love the originals but perhaps wrongly categorised them as up market pulp..It's only when you see where they could have gone wrong (thanks Moff) that you realise how good they were. |
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#1621 |
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This went from being one of the greatest shows ever produced to absolute mediocrity in one season.
Thought this will be up there with some classics in the future but after season 3 I really don't want to see any-more. Looks like ego got the best of the writers. |
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#1622 |
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Join Date: May 2008
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The additional problem is that, if this is the real Moriarty back, then it sort of questions the whole roof scenario since Holmes jumped after Moriarties death which now didn't happen.
I just get an uneasy feeling with a lot of Moffatts writing that a lot of his twists and turns totally invalidate what's gone before. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/b...hin-jokes.html Quote:
Knox wasn't the first to point out continuity errors in Holmes's adventures, but his mock-scholarly analysis amused Arthur Conan Doyle, who admitted that 'you know a great deal more about it than I do, for the stories have been written in a disconnected (and careless) way without referring back to what had gone before.'
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#1623 |
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Another thing is the need to dig into the incidental in the original and expand them to no great value.
Mary doesn't need to be so prominent and to my mind neither does Mycroft..he should be a more shadowy figure. It's getting to be more like Friends than Holmes. Even Moriarty, who was really just bought in to kill Holmes off originally gas been expanded to the point of ridiculous. Imo !!! |
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#1624 |
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This went from being one of the greatest shows ever produced to absolute mediocrity in one season.
Thought this will be up there with some classics in the future but after season 3 I really don't want to see any-more. Looks like ego got the best of the writers. Quote:
The problem now is, if it isn't Moriarty and people have to wait 2 years to find it isn't there is going to be a certain amount of uproar and you can lay odds that the Moff way would be to declare its not Moriarty and skip over the fact that the return of Moriarty was what got Sherlock off the hook this time.
On another note I think one thing I've realised is that, when they tweak a Holmes story from the original they tend to go off the rails a bit. The fake death in the original was that Holmes threw Moriarty to his death in a fight at the falls but then had to go into hiding because Moran was after him. They try and do something clever with the new version and it ends up a convoluted mess with apparently no one dead. In the original CAM story it was the blackmailed woman who shot CAM and Holmes let her off..far more satisfactory for me. I love the originals but perhaps wrongly categorised them as up market pulp..It's only when you see where they could have gone wrong (thanks Moff) that you realise how good they were. Quote:
Episode 3 for me was superb right up to the last 5 minutes and then they dropped the ball big time.
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#1625 |
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Join Date: May 2008
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Don't forget that Sherlock never actually told John why he was the only one close to him who wasn't told he was alive?
Maybe it's actually John being protected from something that we don't know about yet? A bit far fetched I suppose, but the lack of explanation to John as to the why rather than the how, has bugged me slightly, and I wonder if there's more to come on that. So, if there were people who were watching him for Sherlock clues, the only way to convince them that he thought Sherlock was dead would be for him to actually believe Sherlock is dead. |
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) with Mycroft conveniently sorting out that issue for him.
