I don't think Luisa is strong or intelligent. If you saw the clip on BOTS of some of the questions HMs were asked before they entered the house, you'll know how intelligent or otherwise she is!!

She's feisty and she knows what she wants - but the fact that she'll do and say almost anything to get what she wants doesn't make her strong or intelligent - it makes her streetwise maybe, single minded and selfish.

'Being real' is usually another way of describing 'being rude' and because she has a thick skin she feels able to say anything to anyone. She's a good HM but in the real world, real people would see through her in a nanosecond.

We can't be sure of that - maybe Liz just isn't the self-pitying type, unlike Linda.

I'm afraid that's totally untrue. You only have to read Jones' column to confirm her love of victimhood, her lack of empathy for others, her self-involved, self-serving, gag-inducing 'poor me' mantras and her unwillingness to take responsibility for the miserable, friendless life she peddles for cash.

Can't say that I like them, but I agree, they are entertainig to watch.

Yes, 'Being real' usually means 'I'm going to say whatever I want, and I don't give a damn who it upsets.'

I've never understood why this is viewed by some as a good thing.

I agree. Bitter old woman.

Well the greatest female housemate of all time in Charley was a strong woman who wasn't going to take any crap.

I would not really call Linda that strong of a woman, although she does have it out for Jim.

I admire the f/m for sticking up this thread I did similar a few years ago and got hammered for it. I suspect by tonight there will be 10 pages.

Err.. No its not idiotic at all, in fact it totally sums up the absurdity of your argument, which is:

That people dislike two female individuals in a staged reality show because they are "strong and intelligent"

By what official experiment or survey have you decided that these two individuals are either strong or intelligent?

How have you determined that they are/are not any stronger or intelligent than the other females in the house? To establish you argument you would need to examine and study all female housemates.

How have you polled a) this forum or b) the great British public to determine exactly what or who they like or dislike?

You make so many allegations of other peoples minds, are you a mind reader? a pollster? a statistician?.....

NO you are just upset that people don't like someone you like.

MY EVIDENCE for knowing this about YOU?? this entire bloody thread

Without fact you should base your opinions on reason and so is it more reasonable that people do not like these people for their behaviour(s) or because they are "strong and intelligent" ???

I say...get a grip.

The majority of viewers on Big Brother are women and I'd say the majority who vote are women. Of course men do watch like myself but women are like that to other women.

Men don't bitch like women do.

I can share your 'pain' MACTOWN and have been there myself!

This thread will certainly be one I keep a rather close eye on, and I'll perhaps save myself for when it's get's a little more, er 'lively' (and it will get lively )

One of the most amusing things for me is the irony of some posters who have claimed Luisa is 'not intelligent' as if it is some kind of fact. Do they not realise that they are actually only helping to strengthen the OP's stance?

(Intelligence is NOT determined by a few selected general knowledge questions from a reality tv show people. I'm sure anyone who has studied intelligence and the various ways in which it is is measured will be able to tell them that. I mean come on now!).

Undermining someone or impacting on their happiness/ability to live their life in the way they would choose, in order to maintain your status isn't strength to me, but weakness. For me, the strong women are the ones who've stood up for someone or something that they've believed in, when they've known it would or could be to their detriment.

So you don't admit that women who are out spoken or/and intelligent or sexually confident ( and yes I can tell Luisa is intelligent because she's run a very successful business , Linda may not be intelligent but she's strong imo , and Jasmine is both , plus all the other female hms I've mentioned that have received a hard time from a lot of fans ) don't have a much tougher time on BB in terms of how the audience perceives them?
I'm not upset that people don't like them , I would still enjoy watching them anyway , I just think it exposes a lot of the sexism that permeates society that a woman can't put a foot wrong in BB without being vilified.

I dont mind strong confident women...its what they do with that confidence and strength that I decide upon.I think Luisa is not so much strong as domineering and I don't think she is a particularly nice person at all, her stint on the Apprentice had me switch off because I just could not stand her controlling and bullying behaviour.

I feel exactly the same including the examples you chose.

[quote=Fried Kickin;70732246]Linda is a miserable old toad.
I think that's why folk don't like her.

QUOTE]


I think it's obvious what a lot of the prejudice against Linda is about, and it is nothing to do with her being strong or intelligent: it is because she is not young, dewy and pretty. Just look at the number of posts since the series starting jeering at her because of her looks and age. It is shameful imo. Presumably she is strong: she has had to overcome some huge difficulties in her life; whether she is intelligent is hard to say.



She has slagged off both Casey and Linda behind their backs. How many do you want?


My recollection is that Claude eviscerated her in the Apprentice interview, demolishing all her claims one by one. There is an interesting discussion here: http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...1847042&page=3 - with some good investigation.

I really doubt that she is a particularly successful businesswoman. If she was, she wouldn't be doing CBB, for one thing. Who takes four weeks away from work, not even in telephone contact, when they are trying to build a multi-million pound business? I honestly think that if Luisa was, say, offered a place on Loose Women she would take it.



Luke was voted out against 8 other housemates including three women, so what is your point? The crowd are only a couple of hundred people vs a show that was watched by millions: it is the votes you have to look at, not the noise made by a tiny group. Conor would surely have been voted out against anyone at all, including a plate of spam, by that time, so again, what is your point? He was absolutely loathed and reviled on here, and Deana was loved, so it is hard to argue that women were being harder on women.

Casey and Sam, who have also in different ways 'shown off their bodies' are popular on here. There has been speculation that either of them might win. (It could probably only happen if Ollie dropped dead half way through, but neither of them looks in any danger at present, unlike Lee and Evander).

Yes, when the Sun ran an all housemates poll a couple of years ago, they were visibly miffed that Rachel won. And she really WAS strong, not just brash: she dealt with absolutely everything with unfailing good temper and tolerance.

There is some truth in that, but I think it is more complicated. There seems an exaggerated fondness for young, good-looking, stereotypically 'normal' men. And if they can add a posh manner to the above, they practically walk on water here. But men have no advantage at all if they are a bit 'weird'.

Actually I think the eviction history shows more about the recruitment process than anything. They seem fatally unable to identify women with a genuine solid history of media success that has not been limited to soap acting or being abrasive on tv. Where is the female comedian to rival Julian Clary? Where is the sweet natured but slightly faded singer like Mark Owen? How many Loose Women ARE there?

Yes, all fair imo. I don't particularly like either of them, but I can see that they are interesting housemates. I felt a bit silly about Luisa, arguing on here that she might be totally different from her Apprentice persona, then she turned out to be EXACTLY like her apprentice persona. I like that about her. She's never pretended to be anything but who she is (well, apart from bigging up her non-existent acting career , but they all big-up their careers, Luisa bigs up her career - if she were that successful, why go on CBB).


I just think the OP failed as a question. Not all that many housemates of any gender have been both strong and intelligent. Gina was not strong enough to play nice when she stopped getting extra privileges, nor intelligent enough to give convincing details to her fake story. Hazel WAS strong, imo: she put up with a massive amount of negativity which went on for weeks without ever looking defeated. But most of her supporters seemed to be women, so if anything that goes against the OP. Jasmine's strength has not been tested: she has not come up against anything bad yet; nor is there any particular evidence about her intelligence yet afaik. Luisa has a certain verbal adeptness, but seemed badly caught out on the Apprentice when it actually came to backing up her claimed story; not that bright after all perhaps.

Strong AND intelligent women? - Anna, definitely; Mel, who was criticised for being overly flirty, but far too long ago to be able to see whether it was by men or by women; Elizabeth, who was disliked for not getting on with ditzy little Helen; Kate, allowing for her youth and inexperience, who was very popular indeed; Vanessa Nimmo, but she was a bit of an ice maiden; Rachel, not brilliant, but bright enough, and very strong, pretty and popular; Keeva, who started off unpopular then won a lot of people over; Hazel; it is just impossible to see a pattern, any more than it would be if I started listing men who have been strong and intelligent.




Ha, I don't think so. She lost her temper at absolutely EVERYTHING; she was a strong as the average three year old. She came out of the house, tried to pick fights with Chanelle, sneered at everything she did, then got no offers herself. She sounds virtually illiterate on twitter.


She probably has had to show a huge amount of strength though. She is a widow, she lost her sister, she was seriously ill with cancer and lost her career. Few housemates have had to contend with so much in their lives.

Just would like to point out that I never said WOMEN didn't like strong women , I said SOME BB fans , it's everyone else who seems to have just automatically assumed I said women , I would argue that Conor wouldn't have been voted out because he survived against Shievonne with about 80% of the votes , and would most likely have beaten Ashleigh , Luke S , Becky , Scott and most likely Sara too. I take some of your points on board and understand that everyone has different definitions of strong and intelligent, but I still feel women who don't fit the mould face a lot more criticism then males.
As I said just want to stress I never said WOMEN don't like strong intelligent women , and I'm not sure where this idea came from?

[quote=rorybb;70732558]People don't like a woman like Luisa because she proves you can have it all , she is successful and happy , and doesn't give a damn what people think about her. People want career women to be miserable and lonely and young party girls to be vapid , either way people HATE women who are sexually confident , that is the biggest sin of all for a BB woman.
I'm not even going to address the hitler thing it's so idiotic.[/Qlif 1
If she is so successful and so happy, what is she doing on Bb, last chance for the wannabe and the hasbeen.?

There seems to be a trend, whenever an older woman in BB annoys people, age comes into it. Heck, if she'd been seen drinking I'm sure the cliched "OLD LUSH" line would be trotted out again.


Pretty much this.

For me, an example of a strong, intelligent woman in BB would be someone like Rachel Rice. She held her ground despite putting up with a lot of unwarranted nastiness, had a great attitude, and had admirable ambitions. But that's just "boring" apparently.

[quote=wonkeydonkey;70737678]
[quote=academia;70738136]
Money? it's basically money for nothing really , and just speaking personally , as a big brother fan which I imagine Luisa is as well , I'd jump at the chance to go in and see what it's like!

I am a huge Apprentice fan (partly as many of the tasks are hugely relevant to my line of work and also because I come across the type of characters you see on there on a daily basis(I am not saying this as a compliment btw!).
I even ran into one of them not that long ago (Vincent Disneur if you remember him?) and he spent the entire evening in a bar trying to 'out Alpha Male me' and everyone else (for want of a better phrase). I relish a 'challenge' and so naturally I was happy to oblige

Anyway, I digress. Claude has a habit of 'eviscerating' people at the interview stage- that's what he's there for after all is it not. When I say she is successful in business I did say that it is relative.

Her achievements are certainly not that of someone who is 'not intelligent'.

re taking time off work, this is also no absolute measure of success- my boss lives the life of Riley as he has others who can take care of the business for him for periods at a time.

I'm not trying to make out she is uber successful, far from it and even took the 'very' out of the 'very successful in business' in the post I replied to.

I do take your points though and think if she had a chance of a full time media career, or to appear on Loose Women etc she'd bite their hand off to take it, I agree.
I maintain that anyone who states as fact that she is 'not intelligent' has zero evidence to back up their claim. That's all.

That doesn't actually show that there aren't any, or even that there aren't a good number, who dislike just because they feel threatened by a strong/intelligent/attractive woman. But I agree that it seems to be more a different standard (and a smaller 'margin of error') than automatic dislike.


Yes. But also the way female HMs look seems to make a difference, and more of a difference that is seen with male HMs.


What situation do you have in mind?

I don't think either of them faced much of an uphill battle. Aisleyne was almost instantly popular, it was it clear well before the final that Rachel had a good chance of winning.

We don't really have a good idea of what the general public thought, though. It's unlikely that the eviction night crowds or the audiences on BBLB and other 'secondary' shows are representative (in the statistical sample sense), and BBs 7 and 9 were before the days of Twitter and Facebook (which arguably at least give us a better picture than forums alone).

Posts jeering at Linda's looks an age (you shouldn't assume it's "because of") could instead be the phenomenon that all available weapons tend to be used once someone's disliked. Indeed, so strong is that tendency that it's not all that unusual to see a very good looking woman described as if she's not actually good looking. It's like people don't want to accept that she has any positive qualities, not even her looks.


When would Conor surely have been voted out against anyone at all, including a plate of spam? Conor survived more than one vote after his rant about Deana and after he was loathed and reviled on here. One of those votes was only a couple of weeks before the final.

(Of course, things might well have been different if we'd had voting to evict.)


You're ignoring the "conservation of dislike": it often seems like there's only so much dislike to go around, so some escape dislike, not because what they've done isn't one of the things that generate dislike, but because someone else is getting it instead.

Also, Sam has hardly been seen, so if she's doing much showing off of her body, we haven't seen it. Her popularity, such as it is, seems mostly by default. And what, apart from her eviction dress, has Lacy done that's showing off her body? Not much, it seems to me.


That would be why Freddie was able to win vote after vote.


Sue Perkins. Germaine Greer. (Just off the top of my head.)

Singers often aim higher, but didn't one recent CBB have one from Steps or S Club? (There was also Jo in CBB5, but that's hardly a point in favour of the recruitment process.)


I don't think it's that hard to see a pattern (or indeed more than one), even if they aren't quite the one the OP suggested. But such things have been discussed in quite a few other threads.

Aishleyne was just as disliked as she was liked ( personally I loved her ) and a lot of the criticism levelled at her was about how she was a "slut" a "tramp" a "whore" a "bitch" and so on and so forth.
Rachel faced SO much more flack for winning then Sam (BB14) who was much much less interesting of a housemate and faced much less challenges , especially from Davina and BBLB , I'm actually more referring to the general bb fanbase and the twitter people then DS

All these years of watching Big Brother and you still believe that to be true?